It is YOU who seems to think life is a movie. "Running off to war looking for glory and honor"?
Are you kidding? Every WWII vet I've known has said they we're scared sh!tless the whole time and wanted nothing more than to do the job thier country asked of them and then go home.
"We're all fallible"
You don't say!? Oh my god, who knew it? Who would have thought that none of us we're perfect and/or infallible?!
I am so thankful and grateful that the intellectual elite is around to inform us of earth shattering discoveries such as "We're all fallible" and "Greed and violence go hand in hand".
We never would have known these things had it not been for our more educated, enlightened friends.
"Evil" is a manifestation of our collective conciousness, we're all filled with fear and hatred. Killing is a cop-out, because of an inability to know how to really help things. Justification will always be in the eyes of the beholder.
It is noticeable that the same people advocating war and claiming a monopoly on righteousness are the same ones who insist on continous belittling and name calling. War is fought by people who are at war with themselves.
Anyone else think this guy is just trying to provoke a reaction? No one can be this full of sh!t.
The use of nukes in Japan had NOTHING to do with the Soviets. Truman hadn't even formed his negative opinion of Stalin when he authorized their use. By Truman's own memoirs you can see that he authorized the use of the bomb to save american soldiers. As has already been mentioned in this thread the troops that had survived the European theater were being moved over to fight in the pacific. Truman didn't want to send millions of soldiers that had survived some of the worst fighting in the war to their deaths in Japan. He KNEW the bomb would make them surrendor only if they saw it's destructive power and our willingness to use it firsthand. He gave the millitary the right to use the weapon as they saw fit and revoked that right shortly after the second bomb was dropped. He took back the controls after seeing the pictures of Hiroshama that had been rushed to him. Truman didn't want to use the Nuke, he had to. It was the only way to end the war quick and spare the millions of casualties on both sides that would have occured with an invasion.
Do NOT second guess the motives, intentions or the knowledge of the american leadership at the time. Most of you that have posted have no idea what WWII was about or the killing that took place. In addition, those people that reveal and celebrate the death of 100's of thousands of civillians make me sick. The use of the nukes may have been needed but we should NOT EVER celebrate the death of innocent people. Hiroshama and Nagaski stand as memorials to the destruction that humanity can reap on each other. The immense destructive power we yeild. We should commemerate the bombing of Japan as the Japanesse do, as a somber reminder of what war can lead to, and if you believe in it, a prayer that no nation will ever use that destructive power again. Remember the 100's of thousands of people that died in a flash of light and suffered through radiation death as that reminder of the horribleness of war. Please Never forget and hope and pray the world will see peace someday.
Do NOT second guess the motives, intentions or the knowledge of the american leadership at the time. Most of you that have posted have no idea what WWII was about or the killing that took place. In addition, those people that reveal and celebrate the death of 100's of thousands of civillians make me sick. The use of the nukes may have been needed but we should NOT EVER celebrate the death of innocent people. Hiroshama and Nagaski stand as memorials to the destruction that humanity can reap on each other. The immense destructive power we yeild. We should commemerate the bombing of Japan as the Japanesse do, as a somber reminder of what war can lead to, and if you believe in it, a prayer that no nation will ever use that destructive power again. Remember the 100's of thousands of people that died in a flash of light and suffered through radiation death as that reminder of the horribleness of war. Please Never forget and hope and pray the world will see peace someday.
Yes, that is interesting. Not.
Who is 'advocating war' btw? Or 'claiming a monopoly on righteousness'?
Do you speak in anything BUT vague riddles full of slogans one would expect to see plastered all over a tie-dyed VW mini-bus with a 'Berekely or Bust' sign in the rear window and a trail of odd smelling smoke wafting from the windows?
You are incredibly predictable. All of your views seem to convienantly fall within the Hippy pacifist party line. Much like all right wingers seem to convienantly hold the same views. You are no less a robot than they are, your programming is just different.
Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge
Yes, that is interesting. Not.
Who is 'advocating war' btw? Or 'claiming a monopoly on righteousness'?
Do you speak in anything BUT vague riddles full of slogans one would expect to see plastered all over a tie-dyed VW mini-bus with a 'Berekely or Bust' sign in the rear window and a trail of odd smelling smoke wafting from the windows?
You are incredibly predictable. All of your views seem to convienantly fall within the Hippy pacifist party line. Much like all right wingers seem to convienantly hold the same views. You are no less a robot than they are, your programming is just different.
This explains it.
Reality is that violence is perpetuated by people who are hurting and need to hurt others, and responded to in kind by people too weak to open up and offer themselves instead of fighting back and keeping the cycle going.
I would only ask, if you've got it all figured out, why are you spewing venom here over the internet? Personal attacks are spawned from personal insecurity.
I would only ask, if you've got it all figured out, why are you spewing venom here over the internet? Personal attacks are spawned from personal insecurity.
Sounds like the kind of BS they try to tell kids these days. "If a bully is bothering you, just walk away."
As if every situation in the world were so clear cut, or the option to walk away were always available.
I found a better way. I kicked his ass, and he left me alone.
Wow, this thread went nuts.
Allaw me to explain to the peons that dont understand war and live in 200000 dollar homes.
Say we do not drop the nukes. Ok, fine, we invade then. D-day, the LARGEST INVASION IN HISTORY, would have looked like a beach party compared to the landing planned for Japan. Estamits for the landing alone were 1 MILLION casulalties. ON OUR SIDE! 3 million total just to land. Think about that. 3 million - 300,000 = 2.7 million saved. 1.3 million jap lives saved...on that one attack. Had we pushed further inland, well, lets just say that 10 million deaths would be very conservative. 10 willion - 300,000 = 9.7 million...saved. What would you do?
Allaw me to explain to the peons that dont understand war and live in 200000 dollar homes.
Say we do not drop the nukes. Ok, fine, we invade then. D-day, the LARGEST INVASION IN HISTORY, would have looked like a beach party compared to the landing planned for Japan. Estamits for the landing alone were 1 MILLION casulalties. ON OUR SIDE! 3 million total just to land. Think about that. 3 million - 300,000 = 2.7 million saved. 1.3 million jap lives saved...on that one attack. Had we pushed further inland, well, lets just say that 10 million deaths would be very conservative. 10 willion - 300,000 = 9.7 million...saved. What would you do?
Call me crazy, but I think the whole point of this post is simply to remember. Remember that a great portion of humanity died on this day many years ago. That any life lost leaves the rest of us a little depraved. In one blinding flash many lights were extinguished. It was a sad day for mankind, and one that shouldn't be forgotten.
Being that I Served on the USS Missouri BB-63 (Battleship that the Japanese Surrender was signed on) and have training in nuclear weaponry, and have myself studied much of what the Japanese surrender and events leading up to it entailed - of course I have opinions, and perhaps even a reasonable approach and understanding of popular myth and historical fact for having studied.
So - I figured I'd read every post (like you're supposed to do) and then put in my $2.25. I read. And now I'm backing away from the flames and ignorance.
You Barstool lawyers and wannabe anti-this/that. Stop your Google searching for shotgun facts and quit pretending that you have command of more than your keyboard. There isn't a conspiracy behind every closed door, and not all conflicts can be solved by walking away.
There are certainly tragic things done in the name of God and Country, and regrettable actions - even if necessary. But the bent this thread takes is showing most everyone's ignorance, not compassion or considerate thought on an important topic worth remembering, and worth discussing with respect.
Now everyone anti-pro-this/that, whether the action was justified or not, no matter which country or affiliation you are from or ascribe too:
-Sketcher
So - I figured I'd read every post (like you're supposed to do) and then put in my $2.25. I read. And now I'm backing away from the flames and ignorance.
You Barstool lawyers and wannabe anti-this/that. Stop your Google searching for shotgun facts and quit pretending that you have command of more than your keyboard. There isn't a conspiracy behind every closed door, and not all conflicts can be solved by walking away.
There are certainly tragic things done in the name of God and Country, and regrettable actions - even if necessary. But the bent this thread takes is showing most everyone's ignorance, not compassion or considerate thought on an important topic worth remembering, and worth discussing with respect.
Now everyone anti-pro-this/that, whether the action was justified or not, no matter which country or affiliation you are from or ascribe too:
Thank you, those of you who espouse the facts, without sensationalizing the past.
-Sketcher
Thank you Sketcher. By god your the first voice of reason I've heard around here in a long time.
maybe you should learn more about history before you comment on truman's anti communism attitude.
http://users.erols.com/goodmank/
pretty much sums it up
"his simplistic military view was furthered by press releases in the weeks following the bombings. For example, The New York Times quoted Truman on 7 August with phrases such as, "Hiroshima was a major military target," and, "We have spent two billion dollars on the greatest scientific gamble in history--and won."(13) These phrases and others gave readers the single-sided view that the bomb was dropped for military reasons, and through the entirety of the 1940s and 1950s no other major contradictory statement of any kind was ever made. The praising and glorifying of the scientists involved which filled the paper after the bombs were dropped, Truman implied the bomb was something for which the American people should be proud of.
The second major source of pressure on Truman and his advisors to drop the atomic bombs came from domestic tensions and issues of reelection, combined with a collective American feeling of hatred toward the Japanese race. As in most major military conflicts, there was an effort to establish the Americans as morally superior to the Japanese. Truman was no exception to this generalization, and on 25 July 1945 he wrote that the Japanese people were, "savages, ruthless, merciless, and fanatic..."(14) Furthermore, there was fear amongst Truman's advisors that if they were to, "interpret the supreme war goal more leniently for Japan than had been the case with Germany," they would, "leave an unwanted impression, at home and abroad, of 'appeasement.'"(15) Truman knew that if he backed down and did not remain firm on his stance with Japan the American public might be outraged. Furthermore, if the bomb was not dropped, Truman feared that it would prove extremely difficult in post war America to justify the two billion dollars(16) spent on the Manhattan Project.(17) Truman became president because Roosevelt died while in office, and although he never fully embraced the idea of being President, a desire to ensure the possibility of his reelection would certainly have been at least a subconscious consideration.
The third major source of pressures on Truman to drop the bomb was diplomatic tensions with Russia. Today, nothing about the dropping of the bombs is debated by historians more than whether diplomatic tensions played a role in Truman's decision. Truman's predecessor, Franklin D. Roosevelt, followed a program of cooperation and good relations with Russia, highlighted by the Lend-Lease program and the symbolic gestures of good nature at the Yalta conference. Truman broke away from these good-natured relations and sought to follow a new "hard-line" policy. While preparing for his first meeting with a Russian official as President of the United States, Truman exclaimed that if the Russians did not wish to be cooperative, "they could go to hell."(18) During his meeting with Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov, "Truman told Molotov that the American interpretation [about the conflict over Poland] was the only one possible." Furthermore, as the meeting came to a close a flabbergasted Molotov responded, "I have never been talked to like that in my life." (19) Collectively, these quotes leave little doubt that Truman embraced a new policy of strict bluntness and a willingness to "play hardball" with the Russians."
FINALLYsomeone got it right!
and to the ones calling it an act of terrorism on civilians,your DEAD wrong...BOTH cities were industrial/military complexes and as such ARE military targets...and if you would like to whine about it anymore,consider what the Japanese did to the civilian population of the Southeast Asian area, not to mention what was done to the POW's,and if your still not convinced, no one new the destructive power of the second blast,because of the surrounding terrain the blast was intensified,Nagasaki is in a valley like area...no one had figured that into the equasion...if thats not enough,this will scinch it...THE AMERICANS DROPPED LEAFLETS ON BOTH CITIES PROIR TO THE ATTACK WARNING OF THE DEVASTATION COMING WHICH WAS IGNORED BY THE POPULATION ,they saw a lone plane when they were expecting hundreds for the devastation that was described
Amused
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You act as if living in a $200,000 home is unusual. I hate to tell you this, but in most places a 200,000 home is squarely in the middle class. In some places like CA and NY, 200,000 buys you a hovel.
As for the rest of your post, I agree. It's pathetic to read this thread and see these armchair generals with virtually no historical knowledge to speak of going on about how horrible it was for us to do this.
The act of dropping these bombs SAVED millions of American and Japanese lives and possibly saved much of Japan from Soviet rule. For this there is NO question.
Most of you are FOS . . . America didn't give a damn about what Japan was doing to Korea or China. We also rejected the MAJORITY of Jews fleeing Nazi tyranny in Europe. I applaud your attempt to memorialize our 'victory' over Japan, rahvin, but you like most other ATOTers need to read our history (in context) instead of relying on movies and grade school history classes.
Truman was either a liar or an idiot.
Liar
The written order for the use of the atomic bomb against Japanese cities was drafted by General Groves. President Truman and Secretary of War Stimson approved the order at Potsdam.
The order made no mention of targetting military objectives or sparing civilians. The cities themselves were the targets. The order was also open-ended. "Additional bombs" could be dropped "as soon as made ready by the project staff."
OK maybe idiot
U.S. News & World Report, August 15, 1960, pages 68-71
Truman was either a liar or an idiot.
Liar
The written order for the use of the atomic bomb against Japanese cities was drafted by General Groves. President Truman and Secretary of War Stimson approved the order at Potsdam.
The order made no mention of targetting military objectives or sparing civilians. The cities themselves were the targets. The order was also open-ended. "Additional bombs" could be dropped "as soon as made ready by the project staff."
OK maybe idiot
Leo Szilard "President Truman Did Not Understand,"
U.S. News & World Report, August 15, 1960, pages 68-71
Here's the hole in your logic . . . walking away is ALWAYS an option but kicking your antagonist's arse is not. You have NO control over the actions of another; unless of course you kill them. The rationale some support is that even in the face of overwelming conventional forces the Japanese would fight to the very end. A pretty reasonable assumption considering they would be fighting to defend their homeland . . . an island.
Other options included: destroy their ability to project force in the region, isolation, and continuing towards a diplomatic solution. Truman's own words are that use of nuclear weapons is difficult to justify even against the "ruthless, savage, merciless, fanatical Japs". We could have dropped a bomb on Okinawa (after a US troop withdrawal) or western Chubu (central Japan) to intimidate Japan. We chose a particular course amongst several options for reasons other than "saving American (and Japanese) lives.
American moral certitude
Unanimous resolution of the League of Nations Assembly,
September 30, 1938.
Recognizes the following principles as a necessary basis for any subsequent regulations:
1) The intentional bombing of civilian populations is illegal;
2) Objectives aimed at from the air must be legitimate military objectives and must be identifiable;
3) Any attack on legitimate military objectives must be carried out in such a way that civilian populations in the neighbourhood are not bombed through negligence;
The President of the United States to the Governments of France, Germany, Italy, Poland and His Britannic Majesty, September 1, 1939
The ruthless bombing from the air of civilians in unfortified centers of population during the course of the hostilities which have raged in various quarters of the earth during the past few years, which has resulted in the maiming and in the death of thousands of defenseless men, women, and children, has sickened the hearts of every civilized man and woman, and has profoundly shocked the conscience of humanity.
If resort is had to this form of inhuman barbarism during the period of the tragic conflagration with which the world is now confronted, hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings who have no responsibility for, and who are not even remotely participating in, the hostilities which have now broken out, will lose their lives. I am therefore addressing this urgent appeal to every government which may be engaged in hostilities publicly to affirm its determination that its armed forces shall in no event, and under no circumstances, undertake the bombardment from the air of civilian populations or of unfortified cities, upon the understanding that these same rules of warfare will be scrupulously observed by all of their opponents. I request an immediate reply.
Hmm, typically we call that propaganda. If the US had dropped a lower yield bomb on a true military target (as reasonably isolated to reduce civilian casualties but close enough to population centers that people would hear about it) the previous month and THEN drop leaflets saying . . . "Keep fvcking with us and you'll be sorry" . . . I imagine the population and leadership might have responded appropriately.
Anybody getting a letter with white powder residue during August 2001 would worry about the DEA. If there was an accompanying letter saying "death from anthrax" the only response would be from 80s teenagers who would go looking for a copy of Spreading the Disease. The same letter one month later would engender a profoundly different reaction.
Amused
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Every man, woman and child in Japan was being trained to fight to the death. Their fanaticism was evident when we invaded Okinawa and women with children in their arms jumped to their death rather than be captured. These people were brainwashed by their empereor and military leaders so much it makes the Jones Town victims look like free thinkers.
There was, for all intents and purposed, no noncombatants in 1945 Japan.
For all the nit-picking all the Monday morning quarterbacks here do, the fact remains that dropping these bombs SAVED millions of lives. This is undeniable. A diplomatic solution after our experience with Germany and the treaty of Versailles was unthinkable, and no way in hell the Japanese military machine would have accepted our terms. They had, up to that time, insisted on only conditional surrender. An invasion was going to happen, had we not dropped the bombs.
Blockading an island of fanatics is fruitless. Look what it's done to Cuba.
Next time you try to over think this, ask a WWII veteran what he was thinking as they were gearing up to invade Japan.
There was, for all intents and purposed, no noncombatants in 1945 Japan.
For all the nit-picking all the Monday morning quarterbacks here do, the fact remains that dropping these bombs SAVED millions of lives. This is undeniable. A diplomatic solution after our experience with Germany and the treaty of Versailles was unthinkable, and no way in hell the Japanese military machine would have accepted our terms. They had, up to that time, insisted on only conditional surrender. An invasion was going to happen, had we not dropped the bombs.
Blockading an island of fanatics is fruitless. Look what it's done to Cuba.
Next time you try to over think this, ask a WWII veteran what he was thinking as they were gearing up to invade Japan.
Didn't read the thread but.... Why are people constantly remembering the Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but no-one seems to shed one tear for Dresden and firebombings of just about all japaese cities. Why does only Hiroshima and Nagasaki deserve attention? There were other cities that also faced complete destruction during the war.
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