512MB 7800GTXs in stock at Tiger Direct, newegg, and ActBuy

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: apoppin
all your formulas are wrong . . . completely MISapplied . . .
:thumbsdown:

look here - i ain't repeating everything - it's near the end of this thread i PROVE it - 7800GTX vs X1900XTX or wait for G71 . . . Keysplayer2003 and Zebo were both wrong . . . and now you are . . .

try doing a search for "psycho acoustics"
it's clear you don't have a clue how we perceive sound.

What exactly am I wrong about? Why is my formula wrong?

read thru this thread and the one i linked to . . . pay particular attention to the links i quote.

Cliff's Notes:
+3db is a very minimal increase - in the way we HEAR sound. However, it takes a power amplifier about twice the power to achieve +3db [which is close to what you are quoting]

+10db generally represents a doubling - in the way we perceive sound

. . . and having two simultaneous +10 db sounds does NOT mean it is now +20 db.

search under psycho accoustics . . . all audio engineers must take it into consideration when designing sound reproduction equipment.

<<it takes a power amplifier... what you are quoting>>
I'm not sure what part of my post you're referring to, though dB = 10log (P2/P1) is the accepted formula for calculting difference in sound pressure.

<<. . . and having two simultaneous +10 db sounds does NOT mean it is now +20 db.>>
I never said that.

EDIT: Looks like you thought I meant that there was somehow another two-fold increase. This isn't what I meant.

Again incorrect. An increase of 10dB means that the sound pressure level is multiplied by 10. The perceived volume increase is about double that of the previous level.

I meant that if the sound pressure increases by 10dB, the perceived volume increase (i.e. increase in loudness) approximately doubles.

Sorry for the confusion. Does that cover everything?

i guess my 'cliff's notes' were worthless . . . even if my links and previous posts were valid.

the '2 simultaneous sounds' was an attempt by me to show that adding +6 db from a source to an already 'noisy' room does not raise the overall volume by 6db,

The double "power" requirements to produce +3 db are a frequent source of confusion to people . . . not to you, and i probably should have left it out

calculating sound pressure by your formula is absolutely correct - but does not relate directly to how we HEAR the differences . . . there are formulas for those [also in my links].

OK?

 

[Howard]

Well, you can't add 6dB from a source (a 6dB fan or whatever) to a 30dB room and get 36dB. I never said anything to the contrary.

Furthermore, you keep mentioning that power != loudness, and I have not once said that they were.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Howard
Well, you can't add 6dB from a source (a 6dB fan or whatever) to a 30dB room and get 36dB. I never said anything to the contrary.

Furthermore, you keep mentioning that power != loudness, and I have not once said that they were.

true

and


true

i already apologized . . . once

OK, now?

 

[Howard]

:heart:

 

[DAPUNISHER]

There is poignant irony for me in this thread, as it concerns the noise of a vid card as the source of a flamefest. Still :heart: my old 5800U that I let get away. Yes, I know it wasn't a top performer compared to contemporary counterparts as is the case now, but for everything out worth playing except FarCry@the time, it was fast and fun. Looked sweet, was burly, and made me remember my old Delta screamer T-Bird system *<---not altogether unfondly

 

[fstime]

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Rollo
Teh MORPH will only say negative about nVidia, then when proven wrong (as usual), he'll skip to another topic.

The irony of seeing those words coming from you is beyond description.

:laugh:

 

[Asthmaboy]

Wow, and I thought 300 for my 7800GT was extreme.
O.O

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: apoppin
all your formulas are wrong . . . completely MISapplied . . .
:thumbsdown:

look here - i ain't repeating everything - it's near the end of this thread i PROVE it - 7800GTX vs X1900XTX or wait for G71 . . . Keysplayer2003 and Zebo were both wrong . . . and now you are . . .

try doing a search for "psycho acoustics"
it's clear you don't have a clue how we perceive sound.

What exactly am I wrong about? Why is my formula wrong?

read thru this thread and the one i linked to . . . pay particular attention to the links i quote.

Cliff's Notes:
+3db is a very minimal increase - in the way we HEAR sound. However, it takes a power amplifier about twice the power to achieve +3db [which is close to what you are quoting]

+10db generally represents a doubling - in the way we perceive sound

. . . and having two simultaneous +10 db sounds does NOT mean it is now +20 db.

search under psycho accoustics . . . all audio engineers must take it into consideration when designing sound reproduction equipment.

Having two 10 dba sounds would make a 13db sound, as sound presure would be doubled. And would equate to a 30% in precieved volume, in a psycho accoustics way.

What this debate has forgotten is the level of precieved volume with the produts in question.

With a 10db source a 60% increase would have little affect on us be cause it is already nearly silent. When you are dealing with a product that is at 50db and you increase that by 60% then you are talking about a large amount. It like Taxes 6% is a small amount on a 10 dollar purchase but on a $10,000 purchase you are paying $600. Same percentage completely different size hole in the wallet.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: apoppin
all your formulas are wrong . . . completely MISapplied . . .
:thumbsdown:

look here - i ain't repeating everything - it's near the end of this thread i PROVE it - 7800GTX vs X1900XTX or wait for G71 . . . Keysplayer2003 and Zebo were both wrong . . . and now you are . . .

try doing a search for "psycho acoustics"
it's clear you don't have a clue how we perceive sound.

What exactly am I wrong about? Why is my formula wrong?

read thru this thread and the one i linked to . . . pay particular attention to the links i quote.

Cliff's Notes:
+3db is a very minimal increase - in the way we HEAR sound. However, it takes a power amplifier about twice the power to achieve +3db [which is close to what you are quoting]

+10db generally represents a doubling - in the way we perceive sound

. . . and having two simultaneous +10 db sounds does NOT mean it is now +20 db.

search under psycho accoustics . . . all audio engineers must take it into consideration when designing sound reproduction equipment.

Having two 10 dba sounds would make a 13db sound, as sound presure would be doubled. And would equate to a 30% in precieved volume, in a psycho accoustics way.

What this debate has forgotten is the level of precieved volume with the produts in question.

With a 10db source a 60% increase would have little affect on us be cause it is already nearly silent. When you are dealing with a product that is at 50db and you increase that by 60% then you are talking about a large amount. It like Taxes 6% is a small amount on a 10 dollar purchase but on a $10,000 purchase you are paying $600. Same percentage completely different size hole in the wallet.

true . . . as far as you went/

Don't stop there . . . now add the background noice of your room into the equation . . . if the background noise is 50db, adding a VGA Fan at 61 db won't make much practical difference. otoh, if your room is silent -<30db - you may have a headache even with the "quieter" GTX.

that's psycho acoustics. . . . it depends . . and i would love to JEAR comparative noise sound clips.

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: apoppin
all your formulas are wrong . . . completely MISapplied . . .
:thumbsdown:

look here - i ain't repeating everything - it's near the end of this thread i PROVE it - 7800GTX vs X1900XTX or wait for G71 . . . Keysplayer2003 and Zebo were both wrong . . . and now you are . . .

try doing a search for "psycho acoustics"
it's clear you don't have a clue how we perceive sound.

What exactly am I wrong about? Why is my formula wrong?

read thru this thread and the one i linked to . . . pay particular attention to the links i quote.

Cliff's Notes:
+3db is a very minimal increase - in the way we HEAR sound. However, it takes a power amplifier about twice the power to achieve +3db [which is close to what you are quoting]

+10db generally represents a doubling - in the way we perceive sound

. . . and having two simultaneous +10 db sounds does NOT mean it is now +20 db.

search under psycho accoustics . . . all audio engineers must take it into consideration when designing sound reproduction equipment.

Having two 10 dba sounds would make a 13db sound, as sound presure would be doubled. And would equate to a 30% in precieved volume, in a psycho accoustics way.

What this debate has forgotten is the level of precieved volume with the produts in question.

With a 10db source a 60% increase would have little affect on us be cause it is already nearly silent. When you are dealing with a product that is at 50db and you increase that by 60% then you are talking about a large amount. It like Taxes 6% is a small amount on a 10 dollar purchase but on a $10,000 purchase you are paying $600. Same percentage completely different size hole in the wallet.

true . . . as far as you went/

Don't stop there . . . now add the background noice of your room into the equation . . . if the background noise is 50db, adding a VGA Fan at 61 db won't make much practical difference. otoh, if your room is silent -<30db - you may have a headache even with the "quieter" GTX.

that's psycho acoustics. . . . it depends . . and i would love to JEAR comparative noise sound clips.

Not true, a 61 db fan would be over twice the precieved loudness of anything else in your room, that is bad it would stick out. Inf fact it would make other sounds in the room less noticeable as the would have little effect on the 61db sound. The sound itself is worse the farther away you are from the object since instead of drowning in it you it comes from selective areas and sticks out even more.

I used to run a 65db Delta fan on a copper Hedgehog back in the day, that thing was horibly loud, I left it running at a friends house over night and his wife woke up in the middle of the night and asked him what that sound was. The worse part about it she was three stories up. So I do have an Idea how loud these are and I really do think you are having a hard idea on how much an impact a lowly 60% increase in precieved loudness, even in a louder room.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: apoppin
all your formulas are wrong . . . completely MISapplied . . .
:thumbsdown:

look here - i ain't repeating everything - it's near the end of this thread i PROVE it - 7800GTX vs X1900XTX or wait for G71 . . . Keysplayer2003 and Zebo were both wrong . . . and now you are . . .

try doing a search for "psycho acoustics"
it's clear you don't have a clue how we perceive sound.

What exactly am I wrong about? Why is my formula wrong?

read thru this thread and the one i linked to . . . pay particular attention to the links i quote.

Cliff's Notes:
+3db is a very minimal increase - in the way we HEAR sound. However, it takes a power amplifier about twice the power to achieve +3db [which is close to what you are quoting]

+10db generally represents a doubling - in the way we perceive sound

. . . and having two simultaneous +10 db sounds does NOT mean it is now +20 db.

search under psycho accoustics . . . all audio engineers must take it into consideration when designing sound reproduction equipment.

Having two 10 dba sounds would make a 13db sound, as sound presure would be doubled. And would equate to a 30% in precieved volume, in a psycho accoustics way.

What this debate has forgotten is the level of precieved volume with the produts in question.

With a 10db source a 60% increase would have little affect on us be cause it is already nearly silent. When you are dealing with a product that is at 50db and you increase that by 60% then you are talking about a large amount. It like Taxes 6% is a small amount on a 10 dollar purchase but on a $10,000 purchase you are paying $600. Same percentage completely different size hole in the wallet.

true . . . as far as you went/

Don't stop there . . . now add the background noice of your room into the equation . . . if the background noise is 50db, adding a VGA Fan at 61 db won't make much practical difference. otoh, if your room is silent -<30db - you may have a headache even with the "quieter" GTX.

that's psycho acoustics. . . . it depends . . and i would love to JEAR comparative noise sound clips.

Not true, a 61 db fan would be over twice the precieved loudness of anything else in your room, that is bad it would stick out. Inf fact it would make other sounds in the room less noticeable as the would have little effect on the 61db sound. The sound itself is worse the farther away you are from the object since instead of drowning in it you it comes from selective areas and sticks out even more.

I used to run a 65db Delta fan on a copper Hedgehog back in the day, that thing was horibly loud, I left it running at a friends house over night and his wife woke up in the middle of the night and asked him what that sound was. The worse part about it she was three stories up. So I do have an Idea how loud these are and I really do think you are having a hard idea on how much an impact a lowly 60% increase in precieved loudness, even in a louder room.

i totally disagree.

and a 65db fan cant be heard three stories up . . . sounds like it was defective or your friend has trhe hearing of a bat.

you exaggerate.

 

[VERTIGGO]

not a flame: isn't dual GTX to single GTX 512 a downgrade?

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: VERTIGGO
not a flame: isn't dual GTX to single GTX 512 a downgrade?

I still have the dual 7800GTX?

Is a 512 GTX an upgrade from a 6800GT SLI? That's what I had in my other pc. (sons)

Just wanted to try the card.

 

[ArchAngel777]

N/T

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: apoppin
all your formulas are wrong . . . completely MISapplied . . .
:thumbsdown:

look here - i ain't repeating everything - it's near the end of this thread i PROVE it - 7800GTX vs X1900XTX or wait for G71 . . . Keysplayer2003 and Zebo were both wrong . . . and now you are . . .

try doing a search for "psycho acoustics"
it's clear you don't have a clue how we perceive sound.

What exactly am I wrong about? Why is my formula wrong?

read thru this thread and the one i linked to . . . pay particular attention to the links i quote.

Cliff's Notes:
+3db is a very minimal increase - in the way we HEAR sound. However, it takes a power amplifier about twice the power to achieve +3db [which is close to what you are quoting]

+10db generally represents a doubling - in the way we perceive sound

. . . and having two simultaneous +10 db sounds does NOT mean it is now +20 db.

search under psycho accoustics . . . all audio engineers must take it into consideration when designing sound reproduction equipment.

Having two 10 dba sounds would make a 13db sound, as sound presure would be doubled. And would equate to a 30% in precieved volume, in a psycho accoustics way.

What this debate has forgotten is the level of precieved volume with the produts in question.

With a 10db source a 60% increase would have little affect on us be cause it is already nearly silent. When you are dealing with a product that is at 50db and you increase that by 60% then you are talking about a large amount. It like Taxes 6% is a small amount on a 10 dollar purchase but on a $10,000 purchase you are paying $600. Same percentage completely different size hole in the wallet.

true . . . as far as you went/

Don't stop there . . . now add the background noice of your room into the equation . . . if the background noise is 50db, adding a VGA Fan at 61 db won't make much practical difference. otoh, if your room is silent -<30db - you may have a headache even with the "quieter" GTX.

that's psycho acoustics. . . . it depends . . and i would love to JEAR comparative noise sound clips.

Not true, a 61 db fan would be over twice the precieved loudness of anything else in your room, that is bad it would stick out. Inf fact it would make other sounds in the room less noticeable as the would have little effect on the 61db sound. The sound itself is worse the farther away you are from the object since instead of drowning in it you it comes from selective areas and sticks out even more.

I used to run a 65db Delta fan on a copper Hedgehog back in the day, that thing was horibly loud, I left it running at a friends house over night and his wife woke up in the middle of the night and asked him what that sound was. The worse part about it she was three stories up. So I do have an Idea how loud these are and I really do think you are having a hard idea on how much an impact a lowly 60% increase in precieved loudness, even in a louder room.

A few things just do not make sense... First, three stories above? That would be four stories then and that is like a mansion. Second, if it is indeed a mansion, it must be a really crappy one with no insulation or solid floors. I am not sure which one I am going to wager on regis... Or maybe he didn't have the heatsink & fan mounted right and left the wire rubbbing on the fan blades... I am not sure which is more amazing, the fact that your friend has a *four* story house/home or the fact that she woke up hearing a fan three stories down...

 

[M0RPH]

Originally posted by: Howard


:heart:

Why do you have a picture of a woman as your avatar? I never did get why guys do that.

 

[VERTIGGO]

Originally posted by: Rollo

Originally posted by: VERTIGGO
not a flame: isn't dual GTX to single GTX 512 a downgrade?

I still have the dual 7800GTX?

Is a 512 GTX an upgrade from a 6800GT SLI? That's what I had in my other pc. (sons)

Just wanted to try the card.

oh cool, I just thought I remembered the X2 running the GTXs

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: ArchAngel777

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: apoppin
all your formulas are wrong . . . completely MISapplied . . .
:thumbsdown:

look here - i ain't repeating everything - it's near the end of this thread i PROVE it - 7800GTX vs X1900XTX or wait for G71 . . . Keysplayer2003 and Zebo were both wrong . . . and now you are . . .

try doing a search for "psycho acoustics"
it's clear you don't have a clue how we perceive sound.

What exactly am I wrong about? Why is my formula wrong?

read thru this thread and the one i linked to . . . pay particular attention to the links i quote.

Cliff's Notes:
+3db is a very minimal increase - in the way we HEAR sound. However, it takes a power amplifier about twice the power to achieve +3db [which is close to what you are quoting]

+10db generally represents a doubling - in the way we perceive sound

. . . and having two simultaneous +10 db sounds does NOT mean it is now +20 db.

search under psycho accoustics . . . all audio engineers must take it into consideration when designing sound reproduction equipment.

Having two 10 dba sounds would make a 13db sound, as sound presure would be doubled. And would equate to a 30% in precieved volume, in a psycho accoustics way.

What this debate has forgotten is the level of precieved volume with the produts in question.

With a 10db source a 60% increase would have little affect on us be cause it is already nearly silent. When you are dealing with a product that is at 50db and you increase that by 60% then you are talking about a large amount. It like Taxes 6% is a small amount on a 10 dollar purchase but on a $10,000 purchase you are paying $600. Same percentage completely different size hole in the wallet.

true . . . as far as you went/

Don't stop there . . . now add the background noice of your room into the equation . . . if the background noise is 50db, adding a VGA Fan at 61 db won't make much practical difference. otoh, if your room is silent -<30db - you may have a headache even with the "quieter" GTX.

that's psycho acoustics. . . . it depends . . and i would love to JEAR comparative noise sound clips.

Not true, a 61 db fan would be over twice the precieved loudness of anything else in your room, that is bad it would stick out. Inf fact it would make other sounds in the room less noticeable as the would have little effect on the 61db sound. The sound itself is worse the farther away you are from the object since instead of drowning in it you it comes from selective areas and sticks out even more.

I used to run a 65db Delta fan on a copper Hedgehog back in the day, that thing was horibly loud, I left it running at a friends house over night and his wife woke up in the middle of the night and asked him what that sound was. The worse part about it she was three stories up. So I do have an Idea how loud these are and I really do think you are having a hard idea on how much an impact a lowly 60% increase in precieved loudness, even in a louder room.

A few things just do not make sense... First, three stories above? That would be four stories then and that is like a mansion. Second, if it is indeed a mansion, it must be a really crappy one with no insulation or solid floors. I am not sure which one I am going to wager on regis... Or maybe he didn't have the heatsink & fan mounted right and left the wire rubbbing on the fan blades... I am not sure which is more amazing, the fact that your friend has a *four* story house/home or the fact that she woke up hearing a fan three stories down...

Sorry, two stories up, or the third story I need to pay more attention what I am saying.. Basement (Computer) 1st floor living room/ Kitchen 2nd Floor Bedrooms and restroom. Nor I didn't have a wire cahgt in it and the fan wasn't dying, and the sound was the fan and not a vibration you can tell by the way it sounded. It was as loud from the moment it was first started and had no fluctuation till the day I gave the whole HSF to a friend. This moment was ealrier in the life of that HSF. From that point on I had to turn the machine off If I left it their over night. To them I probably was just a little louder then like a furnace turning on on but it was still heard. I think their might have been embelshing like her actually waking up to him getting in bed but it was the first thing she said to him.

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: apoppin

i totally disagree.

and a 65db fan cant be heard three stories up . . . sounds like it was defective or your friend has trhe hearing of a bat.

you exaggerate.[/quote]

The Three stories up was an exgeration but I did not do that on intentially. But the fan was not defective, and While I can't Confim that anyone would be able to hear it from their room as I am not given access to it, It could be heard well from the stairs. Keep in mind that at the time she had a 8month-1 year old and probably paid more attention to odd sounds.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: apoppin

i totally disagree.

and a 65db fan cant be heard three stories up . . . sounds like it was defective or your friend has trhe hearing of a bat.

you exaggerate.

The Three stories up was an exgeration but I did not do that on intentially. But the fan was not defective, and While I can't Confim that anyone would be able to hear it from their room as I am not given access to it, It could be heard well from the stairs. Keep in mind that at the time she had a 8month-1 year old and probably paid more attention to odd sounds.[/quote]

whatever.

Ronin has agreed to post sound clips of the GTX vs. the XTX . . . until then, i am not gonna post further on this subject. H tested with the 1800xt which may run hotter and thus louder than the XTX [or not]

 

[Topweasel]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Topweasel

Originally posted by: apoppin

i totally disagree.

and a 65db fan cant be heard three stories up . . . sounds like it was defective or your friend has trhe hearing of a bat.

you exaggerate.

The Three stories up was an exgeration but I did not do that on intentially. But the fan was not defective, and While I can't Confim that anyone would be able to hear it from their room as I am not given access to it, It could be heard well from the stairs. Keep in mind that at the time she had a 8month-1 year old and probably paid more attention to odd sounds.

whatever.

Ronin has agreed to post sound clips of the GTX vs. the XTX . . . until then, i am not gonna post further on this subject. H tested with the 1800xt which may run hotter and thus louder than the XTX [or not][/quote]

Good point. I would like to comment now that I maybe wrong about the Delta fan I had. it was a 80mm and when got to thinking about the noise l looked up Deltas Loudest 80mm fan and its rated at 65 db. I also Understand that how the sound is tunnelled through the case can also have an impact.

 

[rbV5]

I know its off-topic, sorry, but I have both the X1800 XL and the X1800 XT setup in a couple of different environments and although I can't comment vs the GTX cards, I can make a subjective comment on the sound.

The X1800 XL is installed in a Aspire X-Qpack case with a stock clock, stock HS/F AMD64@1.8Gz and is in a quiet bedroom environment. Primarily this is an HTPC/entertainment PC running media center and driving a 720p LCD TV display.

Noise Level: The fan on the X1800 XL is unacceptaby loud, by far the loudest card I've owned and somewhat related to the case design and the quiet room. If your not familiar with the X-Qpack Case or the size of the X1800 XL, I'll be consise and say that the card essentially partitions the case interior in half, not allowing the cards fan exhaust to exit the case easily.
Resolution: Aftermarket HS/F for both the CPU and video cards are going to be required to get the sound down to a respectable level.
Additionally: The card runs every 3D application I've tried, and is stable and offers great performance for 720p gaming. I would expect I would be replacing the cooling for virtually any vcard, and the stock AMD cooler is certainly not HTPC quiet. The crappy Aspire powersupply included amazingly runs this setup flawlessly, but I'll see if the powersupply fan is going to be too loud after.

The X1800 XT is sitting in my family room/kitchen area and is primarily a gaming/entertainment PC running media center and driving 22" CRT, 17" LCD and a 55" CRT based RPTV. Its mounted in a Full Antec tower with an overclocked AMD64X2@2.5GHz on a stock HS/F.

Noise Level: The card is horribly loud on bootup, and then quiet. The HS/F is a nice design and does a good job exhausting out the rear of the case. However....I'm not a big fan of the cooling on this card to be perfectly honest. If it were in the bedroom, it would be unacceptably loud. Its fine in here, and again, the AMD HS/F is not close to being what I would call quiet.
It seems to not cool as well as it "looks" like it should. IMO, the stock fan idle speed is too low...quiet, but runs warm..too warm for overclocking for me. Cranking up the fan helps tremendously to cool it down, but does make it louder as well. Currently I run it at 60% static speed(~3500RPM) with Rivatuner and call it good, and its reasonably quiet and yes it has a bit of a "whir". These are not quiet cards by my definition, neither one of them. I'd say aftermarket cooling would be required for anyone sensitive to noise, my setup isn't quiet so not such a big deal for this setup at this point.

Resolution: None really required, however user configuration of the dynamic fan speed control would be nice. I'd like to keep the amount of utilities to run the card the way I want to a minimum and the overclocking/hardware monitoring are insufficient for this. The card itself is nothing short of awesome, I can just imagine what an X1900XTX would be like. I can't imagine the GTX cards are as loud as these are out of the box to be honest.

btw, I run this rig with a FSP AX 400 powersupply perfectly stable with both the card and X2 processor overclocked and 4 large hardrives, optical drive and a couple TV tuner cards. This is a $40 PS folks.

edit: added powersupply comment to bottom of post.