4 police officers shot serving no-knock warrant

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Deeko
I can't believe anyone is actually on this scumbag's side.

It's not that we are on "this scumbag's side."

We don't have to pick a side. We can question the law enforcement's judgment and the law, and that's all most people here are doing.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: inspire

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
I'm sure they were wearing identifying clothing too that indicated they were law enforcement officers.

As for the homeowner, he was also a suspect in a drug raid - so there is potential that he was just trying to shoot back to not get caught and not truly "defending his property."

I'd want to hear more of the story before I make up my mind.

Tactical unit officers serving a no-knock warrant at 2:30am don't wear clothing that identifies them - that makes them a target. Still - if viewed from a second stroy window, the entry tactics and techniques used should have given it away.

the fact he shot from a 2nd story window is the only reason i think he knew who they were and so should be charged.

In no knock warrents they don't yell who they are or charge in. they just bust in. if the guy was in his room when that happened and shot them then i would say ohwell sucks for the officers. But this is not what happened (from what i can get from the story anyway).

I don't see anywhere where it says he shot from the 2nd story window. Just says from the 2nd floor. Sounds more like a stairway shooting.

you are correct.

Text

LAKEWOOD, N.J. ? A gunman opened fire early Thursday on a SWAT team that burst into a home during a drug and gun raid, wounding four officers while spraying bullets from atop a staircase, authorities said. One officer was critically wounded.



from here

At 2:25 a.m., the task force consisting of officers from the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, New Jersey State Police, the Ocean County Prosecutor's Office and Lakewood police executed a "no-knock" search warrant at the single family split-level home.

They knocked down the door with a battering ram, entered a mid-level landing and were heading upstairs when Gonzalez opened fire on them from atop a staircase, striking the four officers, authorities said


and for those saying they still have to IDENTIFY themselves from wiki
it says "In the US, a no knock warrant is a warrant issued by a judge that allows law enforcement officers to enter a property without knocking and without identifying themselves as police. It is issued under the belief that any evidence they hope to find can be destroyed during the time that police identify themselves and the time they secure the area."


So no they do not need to identify themselves. so i really can't place full blame for the deaths of the officers on the guy.

If you bust into my house at 2:30 AM damn right i will defend the house.

 

[CitizenKain]

Hey, remember when the cops busted in and murdered that old lady down in Atlanta? Fun story that.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: CitizenKain
Hey, remember when the cops busted in and murdered that old lady down in Atlanta? Fun story that.

in case people don't know the story..wiki article on it.

 

[jpeyton]

Unsurprisingly, I feel no sympathy at all for the NARCs in this case.

 

[Deeko]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Deeko
I can't believe anyone is actually on this scumbag's side.

It's not that we are on "this scumbag's side."

We don't have to pick a side. We can question the law enforcement's judgment and the law, and that's all most people here are doing.

If you voted that no, the guy should not be charged with shooting the cops - you're on his side. Whether you agree with the idea of no-knock warrants or not, if you're on his side, uh, you're on his side.

 

[Moonbeam]

How much do the police departments earn if anything from the drug confiscation laws?

I fear that drug enforcement is just legalized theft by thugs.

Why should a citizen with the right to protect his home be put in a position where he has to guess if he's saving his family or about to spend time in prison for shooting a cop. Why are the police so arrogant as to force that choice?

I know if there are enough dead police this shit will stop, maybe. Maybe if insurance refuses to insure them.

 

[Zorba]

I don't like no knock warrants at all, but I really really hate plain-clothes no knock warrants. Anyone can yell "POLICE." Someone busts into my house in street clothes and I have a gun nearby I am going to start shooting, I don't care what they are yelling.

Remember the grandma in GA that got killed for defending her house, when the police went to the wrong house.

I just don't understand the logic behind plain clothing raids at all.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Deeko
I can't believe anyone is actually on this scumbag's side.

It's not that we are on "this scumbag's side."

We don't have to pick a side. We can question the law enforcement's judgment and the law, and that's all most people here are doing.

If you voted that no, the guy should not be charged with shooting the cops - you're on his side. Whether you agree with the idea of no-knock warrants or not, if you're on his side, uh, you're on his side.

If you own a gun.. live in a bad neighborhood and 3-4 men in dark clothes break down your door and rush into your home and you are upstairs with your family.. do you wait for them to murder you or do you protect yourself and your family by all means necessary?

^^also realize they don't even yell "we are cops.. don't shoot"

 

[Generator]

Originally posted by: Deeko
If you voted that no, the guy should not be charged with shooting the cops - you're on his side. Whether you agree with the idea of no-knock warrants or not, if you're on his side, uh, you're on his side.

Even when the law is on the drug dealers side? He will be charged with all sort of things, but I doubt he will be convicted with shooting the cops.

Either way this guy is going to jail.

 

[JDawg1536]

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Deeko
I can't believe anyone is actually on this scumbag's side.

It's not that we are on "this scumbag's side."

We don't have to pick a side. We can question the law enforcement's judgment and the law, and that's all most people here are doing.

If you voted that no, the guy should not be charged with shooting the cops - you're on his side. Whether you agree with the idea of no-knock warrants or not, if you're on his side, uh, you're on his side.

If you own a gun.. live in a bad neighborhood and 3-4 men in dark clothes break down your door and rush into your home and you are upstairs with your family.. do you wait for them to murder you or do you protect yourself and your family by all means necessary?

^^also realize they don't even yell "we are cops.. don't shoot"

Officers always identify themselves when making an arrest. There seems to be confusion as to what a "no-knock" entry is. Just like it sounds, it means they don't knock, not that they don't talk.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: JDawg1536

Originally posted by: dahunan

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Deeko
I can't believe anyone is actually on this scumbag's side.

It's not that we are on "this scumbag's side."

We don't have to pick a side. We can question the law enforcement's judgment and the law, and that's all most people here are doing.

If you voted that no, the guy should not be charged with shooting the cops - you're on his side. Whether you agree with the idea of no-knock warrants or not, if you're on his side, uh, you're on his side.

If you own a gun.. live in a bad neighborhood and 3-4 men in dark clothes break down your door and rush into your home and you are upstairs with your family.. do you wait for them to murder you or do you protect yourself and your family by all means necessary?

^^also realize they don't even yell "we are cops.. don't shoot"

Officers always identify themselves when making an arrest. There seems to be confusion as to what a "no-knock" entry is. Just like it sounds, it means they don't knock, not that they don't talk.

Yes but anybody intending to break in and kill you could claim they are the cops. Why should anybody have to take a voice in the dark as factual. Shoot first and ask questions later, no, when it's your life in the balance?

 

[MotF Bane]

No charges for him. If you smash into a house during the night, what the fuck do you expect?

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Zorba
I just don't understand the logic behind plain clothing raids at all.

I kinda like the 'show of overwhelming force'. Surround the fooker 20 marked cop cars, tactical vehicles, 50 cops, the helicopters, etc.

Also lets the police secure the perimeter to protect the innocents.

I might understand it if there were an imminent threat to citizens --- what was the guy going to do? Sell more dope?

 

[SirStev0]

No.

No Knock warrant are stupid as shit.

Cover all exits.
Identify self as police.
Serve Warrent.
Bust bad guys.

Sure you don't get the thrill of busting down the door guns blazing but I am pretty sure that policing is about enforcing the law and not about psuedomilitary thrill rides with big powerful wang enhancers.

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: BarrySotero
Guy knew they were cops and shot more than one. If Plaxcico Buress can be sent to jail for 2 years for shooting himself this obvious dirt bag should be charged.

He went to jail for illegally having a fire arm in a club in a city with a strict "no god damn guns in clubs" set of laws. The shooting himself was a just sweet poetic justice cherry on top.

He deserves everything he got. He is a shitty gun owner who makes other gun owners look bad. It was a showoff toy to him. Like the kid who takes his new toy everywhere just to rub in how special they are.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: SirStev0
No.

No Knock warrant are stupid as shit.

Cover all exits.
Identify self as police.
Serve Warrent.
Bust bad guys.

Sure you don't get the thrill of busting down the door guns blazing but I am pretty sure that policing is about enforcing the law and not about psuedomilitary thrill rides with big powerful wang enhancers.

No knock warrants aren't issued simply so police can bust into a house for thrills. They exist so that suspects cannot destroy evidence or fortify themselves inside a home.

They are certainly overused, but they have a purpose which you clearly do no understand.

 

[jpeyton]

4-on-1 and this guy gets a shot off on all four of them? Daaaaamn.

Who had the element of surprise on who?

 

[Athena]

Originally posted by: DeekoIf you voted that no, the guy should not be charged with shooting the cops - you're on his side. Whether you agree with the idea of no-knock warrants or not, if you're on his side, uh, you're on his side.

That's the kind of logic that gets us such messed up votes in Congress. Some may just feel that this is not the way we as a people want laws to be enforced. Was the loss of life in this instance worth it?

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Atreus21
If it were my call, I'd say a warrant for your arrest overrules your right to defend your place of residence from police.

If a cop busted in my house without a warrant, I'd treat him like an intruder.

How do you know the person breaking down your door has a warrant? Do you stand back and patiently let the door collapse, only to discover it's a criminal faking that he's a cop?

In most castle law states, there's no requirement to retreat. And according to the terms of those laws in most states, if you fear that someone breaking into your property is about to inflict physical harm on you or your loved ones, or is about to commit a felony, then you are allowed to use deadly force.

I personally don't agree with castle laws, but that's the way they're written.

Why don't you agree with castle laws?

 

[SirStev0]

Originally posted by: BeauJangles

Originally posted by: SirStev0
No.

No Knock warrant are stupid as shit.

Cover all exits.
Identify self as police.
Serve Warrent.
Bust bad guys.

Sure you don't get the thrill of busting down the door guns blazing but I am pretty sure that policing is about enforcing the law and not about psuedomilitary thrill rides with big powerful wang enhancers.

No knock warrants aren't issued simply so police can bust into a house for thrills. They exist so that suspects cannot destroy evidence or fortify themselves inside a home.

They are certainly overused, but they have a purpose which you clearly do no understand.

Nice edit.

Anyway. Please explain to me how the extra 10 secs you get from busting down the door will actually change the outcome. Obviously, even without knocking this guy was fortified and ready to unleash some fire power. The purpose/advantage that you so adamantly support seems to have been completely worthless. He was still able to pick off 4 police.

Basically you are setting up a bad situation. You are sending in police officers in a frontal attack assault. What is 30 extra seconds really going to do for them. Maybe it wouldn't be hardcore old west shoot-outs if it didn't start with guns-ablazin'. People are either going to resist or not resist. And of course, with this guns-blazing approach we also get the fun stories of a father of 3 getting gunned down due to a typo in the address.

So, please tell me again this great advantage an extra couple secs and a chance to bust down a door guns blazing gets you? I really can't see it.

 

[Atreus21]

So:

A no-knock warrant sucks because of this sort of circumstance. Cops busted in unannounced, invoking the suspects right to defense of his home against an intruder.

A normal warrant sucks because the suspect now has a chance to fortify himself and destroy evidence.

Sounds like this could've been avoided. Cops could've waited for the perp to leave. Could've done it during the day.

 

[Athena]

Originally posted by: JDawg1536
Officers always identify themselves when making an arrest. There seems to be confusion as to what a "no-knock" entry is. Just like it sounds, it means they don't knock, not that they don't talk.

Yes, there does seem to be some confusion. From Wikipedia:

"In the US, a no knock warrant is a warrant issued by a judge that allows law enforcement officers to enter a property without knocking and without identifying themselves as police."

 

[MotF Bane]

Originally posted by: Athena

Originally posted by: JDawg1536
Officers always identify themselves when making an arrest. There seems to be confusion as to what a "no-knock" entry is. Just like it sounds, it means they don't knock, not that they don't talk.

Yes, there does seem to be some confusion. From Wikipedia:

<"In the US, a no knock warrant is a warrant issued by a judge that allows law enforcement officers to enter a property without knocking and without identifying themselves as police."

Then they may die, and it cannot be held as fault of the homeowner for defending his or her self against armed intruders.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: MotF Bane


Then they may die, and it cannot be held as fault of the homeowner for defending his or her self against armed intruders.

I agree with that. No identification, no announcement, burst into my home, you should expect to get shot. So I'm going to side with the home owner (or even somebody invited/allowed to be in the home) here, even if he's some slimeball drug dealing baby killer, he did no wrong by shooting the officers. And you should know by now that I have zero hate for police.