4.0L V8 vs 4.0L V6

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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
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My point was that each had 1/4 the capacity, so that is as near as you'll get - no one would give each cylinder 1/4 the valve area because it's beyond stupid.

If you are aiming for power both engines are going to be over-square anyway and there is a limit to how over-square you can go.

If the 4 cylinders have the same stroke as the big 1 cylinder, the valves would HAVE to add up to the same total cross section.

That is my point. Howard is saying the V8 has more valve cross section, but that's based on the assumption that the V8 has a shorter stroke than the V6. If volume is the same, and stroke is the same, you are dividing the same cylinder cross section among either 6 or 8 circles... And the valve cross section is a certain percentage of the total cylinder cross section.
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
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If the 4 cylinders have the same stroke as the big 1 cylinder, the valves would HAVE to add up to the same total cross section.

That is my point. Howard is saying the V8 has more valve cross section, but that's based on the assumption that the V8 has a shorter stroke than the V6. If volume is the same, and stroke is the same, you are dividing the same cylinder cross section among either 6 or 8 circles... And the valve cross section is a certain percentage of the total cylinder cross section.
I'm not sure if you're intentionally being obtuse, but there is absolutely no reason to arbitrarily fix the stroke of an engine during the design phase so as to match up with another engine design.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
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I'm not sure if you're intentionally being obtuse, but there is absolutely no reason to arbitrarily fix the stroke of an engine during the design phase so as to match up with another engine design.

But your claim that the V8 has more valve area is based on both engines being square... You're the one arbitrarily fixing the stroke to be the same as the bore, otherwise your claim makes no sense at all.

I gave you an example of how the V6 and the V8 could have the same cylinder cross section and therefore the same valve area. So I don't see how your response could be "you're arbitrarily fixing the stroke". I set the stroke to what it needed to be to show you that your assumption about valve area was incorrect.
 
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Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
11
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I never hid the fact that my calculations showed valve area going up with number of cylinders given the same rod/stroke ratio. It's not the only way to make a comparison, granted, but comparatively reducing the bore of the engine with more cylinders is so stupid it shouldn't even be considered.

What is the point you are driving at? As far as I'm concerned, you have only been wasting my time because you had, and have, nothing beneficial to contribute.
 
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exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
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The cylinders will have smaller valves in the V8, but they will also be pulling in less air per individual cylinder since the cylinders are smaller so that's ok. But as a whole, the engine has a larger head and more valves, and potential for more total valve area for the 4L total displacement. That is to say the V8 will have smaller valves than the V6, but the valve area to cylinder volume should be slightly increased on the V8. In other words, maintaining a minimum useful bore size, the valve area doesn't decrease as fast as the respective cylinder volume decreases when dividing the displacement amongst more cylinders. If you DON'T take advantage of this in your design and bore/stroke, you miss one of the primary advantages of choosing the V8 over the V6 of the same displacement.

More important than the actual number and size of the valves themselves (since lift and duration can compensate for valve size) is that total head port area/volume will be greater with more cylinders for a given displacement. Even if the valve area is the same, you will have better port geometry and more head casting to work with.

It's the same principal behind 2v per cyl vs 4v or packing sand in a jar vs rocks: more smaller "things" geometrically make more effective use out of a volume/area than fewer but bigger "things". Trying to make 3 big ports for 2L (half the engine) in a short V6 head is going to run into material thickness issues with neighboring ports, etc, while filling the same 2L with a slightly longer head with 4 ports is going to result in a much better head that responds better to cam tuning and RPM.

Of course we are talking purely geometry and theory. In practice it doens't matter, you can make any engine do whatever you want with enough time and money.
 
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Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
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I never hid the fact that my calculations showed valve area going up with number of cylinders given the same rod/stroke ratio. It's not the only way to make a comparison, granted, but comparatively reducing the bore of the engine with more cylinders is so stupid it shouldn't even be considered.

What is the point you are driving at? As far as I'm concerned, you have only been wasting my time because you had, and have, nothing beneficial to contribute.

But why can't the V6 have a wider bore so that it can have the same valve area to volume ratio? Is a square bore optimal?
 

Howard

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
47,982
11
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But why can't the V6 have a wider bore so that it can have the same valve area to volume ratio? Is a square bore optimal?
Both theory and practice will show that oversquare engines will tend to produce more power than undersquare engines.

The point is, both bore and stroke are variables that can change between engines and arbitrarily choosing an unnecessary constraint doesn't prove anything. But, in the pursuit of maximum power, higher bore/stroke ratios are usually better, and neither the V6 nor the V8 would demonstrate a significantly higher maximum bore/stroke ratio than the other (I think), so why not fix that?
 

PlasmaBomb

Lifer
Nov 19, 2004
11,636
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But your claim that the V8 has more valve area is based on both engines being square... You're the one arbitrarily fixing the stroke to be the same as the bore, otherwise your claim makes no sense at all.

I gave you an example of how the V6 and the V8 could have the same cylinder cross section and therefore the same valve area. So I don't see how your response could be "you're arbitrarily fixing the stroke". I set the stroke to what it needed to be to show you that your assumption about valve area was incorrect.

If you are designing an engine for power you are going to be aiming for over-square... for "normal" performance engines they typically go to 20% over-square. F1 cars are rumoured to be 250% over-square.

The V6's lesser number of pistons means that it will likely run into over-square problems (such as flame propagation) before the V8...