[3dcenter] GK104 specs

[boxleitnerb]

The 8800 Ultra was very very expensive. But it almost doubled the last generation top-dog, the X1950XTX. If the 7970 did that, they can charge whatever the hell they want

 

[Tempered81]

I bet GK104 and TahitiXT will be equals clock-for-clock. They are almost exactly the same size (supposedly both the same size as an rv770), I'm eager to see their power consumption and performance at approximately 1000/1300 clock rates. This is looking to be a very interesting release.

Of course there will be obvious drawbacks for each side such as the rumored 256bit Memory bus and 2GB frame buffer, AMD's CCC update frequency, price, etc.

 

[Stuka87]

Not sure about you but any price increases suck to me. Whether it be nvidia, amd, intel.. Just from the little I understand about gpu/CPU manufacturing it appears that the 7970 is a relatively cheap gpu to make. So that means that the price is artificially high for no reason but greed. If there was a reason for it to be so high such as manufacturing or whatever then fine. You just suck it up and pay for it. It's things like this that turn me completely off of a company/product. Doesn't help any knowing that the amd CEO sees his customers as prey.

I disagree, Even if it doesn't cost as much to manufacture as say a 6970, there is more R&D work that goes into it.

When you purchase a product, you are not simply paying for the cost to manufacture it. You are also recouping the cost to design it. As the product is out for longer, prices can go down as typically you recoup at least most of the R&D cost in the first half of the products life cycle.

 

[Arzachel]

Not sure about you but any price increases suck to me. Whether it be nvidia, amd, intel.. Just from the little I understand about gpu/CPU manufacturing it appears that the 7970 is a relatively cheap gpu to make. So that means that the price is artificially high for no reason but greed. If there was a reason for it to be so high such as manufacturing or whatever then fine. You just suck it up and pay for it. It's things like this that turn me completely off of a company/product. Doesn't help any knowing that the amd CEO sees his customers as prey.

That's kind of an unreasonable stance to make and would mean you couldn't buy ANYTHING AT ALL, because every company is out there to make money and everything is "reasonably cheap to make" when compared with the price it's sold at. The GTX580 and 570 both cost the same to make, so do the 6950 and the 6970, the i5 2500 and the 2500k and the i7 2600k. Manufacturing is just a part of the total cost associated with these parts. Going only on manufacturing costs, you are totally ignoring any kind of R&D.

The 8800 Ultra was very very expensive. But it almost doubled the last generation top-dog, the X1950XTX. If the 7970 did that, they can charge whatever the hell they want

The 8800 Ultra also pulled 45% more power. If you don't mind pulling more power than a GTX580, you can get the same increase with a 7970

 

[exar333]

That's kind of an unreasonable stance to make and would mean you couldn't buy ANYTHING AT ALL, because every company is out there to make money and everything is "reasonably cheap to make" when compared with the price it's sold at. The GTX580 and 570 both cost the same to make, so do the 6950 and the 6970, the i5 2500 and the 2500k and the i7 2600k. Manufacturing is just a part of the total cost associated with these parts. Going only on manufacturing costs, you are totally ignoring any kind of R&D.



The 8800 Ultra also pulled 45% more power. If you don't mind pulling more power than a GTX580, you can get the same increase with a 7970

If anything, NV has the best opportunity to have the lower consumer prices. They have a much stronger server/professional market and could off-set a decent percentage of R&D through their enterprise and professional divisions. Thats very simplistic, obviously, after you factor-in all the other facets and margins the company has to account for.

 

[blackened23]

Not sure about you but any price increases suck to me. Whether it be nvidia, amd, intel.. Just from the little I understand about gpu/CPU manufacturing it appears that the 7970 is a relatively cheap gpu to make. So that means that the price is artificially high for no reason but greed. If there was a reason for it to be so high such as manufacturing or whatever then fine. You just suck it up and pay for it. It's things like this that turn me completely off of a company/product. Doesn't help any knowing that the amd CEO sees his customers as prey.

This is an utterly ridiculous argument to make. Of course its cheap to make, however the R+D, testing, validation, etc is not cheap. Its just like video games, although the media is cheap to produce - DVD's cost pennies -- many games cost millions upon millions to create. SWTOR cost 200 million to make, paying the employees cost millions, and paying for all of the artwork, sound, and love put into the game cost a ton of money. You are not paying for the DVD - you are paying for the blood sweat and tears that the developers put in. Similarly, with the GPU you are not paying for the PCB itself...you are paying for much more than that. Now whats funny is painting amd as a greedy company while sticking up for NV as being charitable? What

 

[Arzachel]

If anything, NV has the best opportunity to have the lower consumer prices. They have a much stronger server/professional market and could off-set a decent percentage of R&D through their enterprise and professional divisions. Thats very simplistic, obviously, after you factor-in all the other facets and margins the company has to account for.

That's true, but they are obligated by law(which is one of the things that are making the world go horribly wrong imo) to get the most profits for their shareholders. If they can price things higher, they will, unless they plan on recouping current losses in the long term through increased marketshare and the like.

 

[boxleitnerb]

The 8800 Ultra also pulled 45% more power. If you don't mind pulling more power than a GTX580, you can get the same increase with a 7970

So where is this magic card with 7970+50% speeds guaranteed? Without forcing the user to use ear plugs, buy watercooling, use voltage mods and possibly fry his card? Sorry mate, it doesn't work this way.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

I disagree, Even if it doesn't cost as much to manufacture as say a 6970, there is more R&D work that goes into it.

When you purchase a product, you are not simply paying for the cost to manufacture it. You are also recouping the cost to design it. As the product is out for longer, prices can go down as typically you recoup at least most of the R&D cost in the first half of the products life cycle.

So you're saying amd couldn't sell the 7970 at $399 and still make a ton of profit? I think they could. So why are they $550-$600? Hmm..

Wake up man. Getting fleeced for your hard earned dollars is not cool. I can't for the life of me figure how getting hard earned dollars taken out of your pocket is a good thing? Then to come into a thread and defend it is really the puzzling thing.
Wonder if these same guys drive by the gas station and get all giddy when gas goes up by a dollar. "oh look honey gas is $1.00 higher than yesterday! Yippee!!
Go Exxon!! A big nameless faceless corporation needs this money so much more than me. Here you go sir. I don't need it. Just so happy to pay premiums!"

 

[blackened23]

So you're saying amd couldn't sell the 7970 at $399 and still make a ton of profit? I think they could. So why are they $550-$600? Hmm..

Wake up man. Getting fleeced for your hard earned dollars is not cool. I can't for the life of me figure how getting hard earned dollars taken out of your pocket is a good thing? Then to come into a thread and defend it is really the puzzling thing.
Wonder if these same guys drive by the gas station and get all giddy when gas goes up by a dollar. "oh look honey gas is $1.00 higher than yesterday! Yippee!!
Go Exxon!! A big nameless faceless corporation needs this money so much more than me. Here you go sir. I don't need it. Just so happy to pay premiums!"

Did you feel this way about the GTX 480 at launch?

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

This is an utterly ridiculous argument to make. Of course its cheap to make, however the R+D, testing, validation, etc is not cheap. Its just like video games, although the media is cheap to produce - DVD's cost pennies -- many games cost millions upon millions to create. SWTOR cost 200 million to make, paying the employees cost millions, and paying for all of the artwork, sound, and love put into the game cost a ton of money. You are not paying for the DVD - you are paying for the blood sweat and tears that the developers put in. Similarly, with the GPU you are not paying for the PCB itself...you are paying for much more than that. Now whats funny is painting amd as a greedy company while sticking up for NV as being charitable? What

Yep those CEO types are dying out there. Maybe we should start a fundraiser? I should never question a 50% msrp price rise. How dare I. I mean all I need to do is walk outside and shake the money tree.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

Did you feel this way about the GTX 480 at launch?

I didn't buy this 480 at launch. I traded a ssd that was worth about $100 and gave the guy another $100 cash for it. Bought the gpu cooler for $40 and I have a gtx 480 that's overclocked, nearly silent, and runs about 52c under load. Thanks for playing.

 

[Skurge]

So you're saying amd couldn't sell the 7970 at $399 and still make a ton of profit? I think they could. So why are they $550-$600? Hmm..

Wake up man. Getting fleeced for your hard earned dollars is not cool. I can't for the life of me figure how getting hard earned dollars taken out of your pocket is a good thing? Then to come into a thread and defend it is really the puzzling thing.
Wonder if these same guys drive by the gas station and get all giddy when gas goes up by a dollar. "oh look honey gas is $1.00 higher than yesterday! Yippee!!
Go Exxon!! A big nameless faceless corporation needs this money so much more than me. Here you go sir. I don't need it. Just so happy to pay premiums!"

AMD sold the much smaller RV770 and Cypress at 299 and 369, how much money did they make during that time? Not much. Half the time they were making a loss. So how do you know they can still make a ton of profit selling them at $399 when TSMC has such crappy yields and 28nm wafers are so expensive. Also, PCBs that don't explode cost money.

If expensive cards put you off an entire company, why are you running an nvidia card? They always had the most expensive cards. They still do. The GTX590 is STILL 700+.

So why didn't support AMD's low prices by getting a 4850/4870/5850/5870 when they came out? I don't remember you giving AMD Kudos and crucifying nvidia for charging so much for their cards.

 

[Arzachel]

So you're saying amd couldn't sell the 7970 at $399 and still make a ton of profit? I think they could. So why are they $550-$600? Hmm..

Wake up man. Getting fleeced for your hard earned dollars is not cool. I can't for the life of me figure how getting hard earned dollars taken out of your pocket is a good thing? Then to come into a thread and defend it is really the puzzling thing.
Wonder if these same guys drive by the gas station and get all giddy when gas goes up by a dollar. "oh look honey gas is $1.00 higher than yesterday! Yippee!!
Go Exxon!! A big nameless faceless corporation needs this money so much more than me. Here you go sir. I don't need it. Just so happy to pay premiums!"

As I said before, companies are required by law to make the most profits for their shareholders. No one is saying, that the price hike is a good thing, only that it is understandable, if we want AMD to continue competing with Nvidia.

Also, this is a niche hobby, none is standing behind your back with a gun to your head, making you purchase a new GPU. Do you also go to car forums to bitch about the price of a Lotus Elise/Ariel Atom/Any kind of Super 7?

 

[blackened23]

I didn't buy this 480 at launch. I traded a ssd that was worth about $100 and gave the guy another $100 cash for it. Bought the gpu cooler for $40 and I have a gtx 480 that's overclocked, nearly silent, and runs about 52c under load. Thanks for playing.

That doesn't answer the question though, I understand you bought it used but how do you feel about the launch MSRP price? Was nvidia "fleecing"? I mean using your argument i'm sure someone somewhere could get a used 7970 a couple of months down the road for a great bargain. That doesn't exactly answer the question or make sense

I'm not patting AMD on the back over their prices but it is understandable - 5870 was a great bargain but it did not make AMD a ton of money because of poor yields. And then AMD was screwed by TSMC's failed switch to 32nm. Anyway, it is somewhat hypocritical (not directing this at you, just in general) to champion nvidia over price/performance. If anything they're the worst offender at overcharging, i'm not sure how you can argue otherwise.

 

[SirPauly]

The graphic's division still had good quarters, specifically with the 5XXX series and even though their APU's are counted in graphic market share, their revenue is not counted in their graphic's division at all.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

That doesn't answer the question though, I understand you bought it used but how do you feel about the launch MSRP price? Was nvidia "fleecing"? I mean using your argument i'm sure someone somewhere could get a used 7970 a couple of months down the road for a great bargain. That doesn't exactly answer the question or make sense

I'm not patting AMD on the back over their prices but it is understandable - 5870 was a great bargain but it did not make AMD a ton of money because of poor yields. And then AMD was screwed by TSMC's failed switch to 32nm. Anyway, it is somewhat hypocritical (not directing this at you, just in general) to champion nvidia over price/performance. If anything they're the worst offender at overcharging, i'm not sure how you can argue otherwise.

I will admit I payed full msrp on a gtx 580 once. Believe me there were cuss words uttered about nvidia when I bought it. I really didn't think about price/performance or none of that. Just wanted the top performer. Turned out I had buyers remorse about 2-3 months in and sold it. So while yes I have been on the paying premium side I am no longer. Just like anything else you learn from your mistakes. So yes with my new outlook on gpu buying I'm giving the 7970 a failing grade.

 

[SirPauly]

That doesn't answer the question though, I understand you bought it used but how do you feel about the launch MSRP price? Was nvidia "fleecing"? I mean using your argument i'm sure someone somewhere could get a used 7970 a couple of months down the road for a great bargain. That doesn't exactly answer the question or make sense

I'm not patting AMD on the back over their prices but it is understandable - 5870 was a great bargain but it did not make AMD a ton of money because of poor yields. And then AMD was screwed by TSMC's failed switch to 32nm. Anyway, it is somewhat hypocritical (not directing this at you, just in general) to champion nvidia over price/performance. If anything they're the worst offender at overcharging, i'm not sure how you can argue otherwise.

Imho,

It's painfully obvious to me that because of AMD's engineering prowess, which allows for a nice execution window to themselves, they can price this chip in the enthusiast sector based on that's what the competition is here. AMD's small chip strategy hasn't changed but what did was their pricing and has to do with this execution window where 28nm can compare itself to 40nm.

One can make the case that they were too committed to the sweet spot strategy with the 5870 and 5850 and left too much revenue and margins on the table. They changed direction, hey it happens, and the CEO is doing what he feels is the correct move for AMD -- and still a win-win for consumer and company. The one that is truly at fault is nVidia for not competing with 28nm technologies yet to me.

 

[Skurge]

I will admit I payed full msrp on a gtx 580 once. Believe me there were cuss words uttered about nvidia when I bought it. I really didn't think about price/performance or none of that. Just wanted the top performer. Turned out I had buyers remorse about 2-3 months in and sold it. So while yes I have been on the paying premium side I am no longer. Just like anything else you learn from your mistakes. So yes with my new outlook on gpu buying I'm giving the 7970 a failing grade.

With that said you position and argument are a lot more understandable, but it does seem like you are singling out AMD here, when Nvidia have more expensive cards. Just like Intel have $999 CPU's.

 

[AtenRa]

Look what happens when you have the fastest and more expensive single card at $549 after 9th of January 2012

http://www.google.com/finance?chdnp...NTC;NASDAQ:NVDA&cmptdms=0;0&q=NYSE:AMD&ntsp=0

 

[ShadowOfMyself]

Look what happens when you have the fastest and more expensive single card at $549 after 9th of January 2012

http://www.google.com/finance?chdnp...NTC;NASDAQ:NVDA&cmptdms=0;0&q=NYSE:AMD&ntsp=0

Well, that pretty much kills the argument if there ever was one

And mother of god, Intel makes both AMD and Nvidia look like ants

 

[antihelten]

...5870 was a great bargain...

Fun (and fairly useless) facts:

The 5870 was approximately 40% faster than the 4890 at release.
The 7970 was approximately 40% faster than the 6970 at release.

The 5870 was 110% more expensive than the 4890 at release (380 usd versus 180 usd)
The 7970 was 60% more expensive than the 6970 at release (350 usd versus 550 usd)

In absolute terms both the 5870 and 7970 increased the price by 200 usd (which is less in the 7970's case due to inflation)

So all in all the 7970 came with a smaller price hike than the 5870 in both absolute and relative terms, but people still complain, even though no one really complained all that much with the 5870.

And I guess all this just goes to show that talking about the size or extremity of a price increase is pointless, all that really matters is the given price, at a given performance level.

 

[Skurge]

Look what happens when you have the fastest and more expensive single card at $549 after 9th of January 2012

http://www.google.com/finance?chdnp...NTC;NASDAQ:NVDA&cmptdms=0;0&q=NYSE:AMD&ntsp=0

Just read Rory Read's Bio from reuters. Impressive, hopes he starts making AMD some money.

 

[blackened23]

Well, that pretty much kills the argument if there ever was one

And mother of god, Intel makes both AMD and Nvidia look like ants

I hope ARM takes off and gives intel serious competition, intel is just a juggernaut right now and it is impossible for anyone to compete on a performance level with them. Intel has too much money and far ahead of the game in terms of R+D.

 

[Keysplayr]

This is an utterly ridiculous argument to make. Of course its cheap to make, however the R+D, testing, validation, etc is not cheap. Its just like video games, although the media is cheap to produce - DVD's cost pennies -- many games cost millions upon millions to create. SWTOR cost 200 million to make, paying the employees cost millions, and paying for all of the artwork, sound, and love put into the game cost a ton of money. You are not paying for the DVD - you are paying for the blood sweat and tears that the developers put in. Similarly, with the GPU you are not paying for the PCB itself...you are paying for much more than that. Now whats funny is painting amd as a greedy company while sticking up for NV as being charitable? What

But I thought smaller die sizes translated into lower costs for consumers?
I reme mber tbis being the cry against nvidias big die strategy. Now that AMD IS charging bigger bux for its product, suddely R&D comes into play.
Funny stuff.