3D Nature and Partners Declare ATI drivers Unsuitable for Professional Visualization

[BFG10K]

In that thread I notice Humus has stated twice the example link is broken yet I've seen no response to rectify the situation.

 

[orangat]

I expected some fanboys to try to obfuscate the problem. There is no escaping that this issue affects both firegl AND non-pro Radeon cards.

The beyond3d thread has this quote from ATI who acknowledged the bug.
Obviously the article has lit a fire underneath ATI's butts since they have ignored this problem since 1999.

From: Essa Qaqish
To: Glenn Patterson; Toshiyuki Okumura; Larry McIntosh
Sent: Fri May 05 16:28:45 2006
Subject: RE: 3D Nature and Partners Declare ATI drivers Unsuitable for Professional Visualization

All,
Unfortunately, this is true and we are currently aware of it. There is an EPR and a committed fix scheduled for 8.261 (June posting).

 

[FlasHBurN]

I love how the GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap + compressed textures problem is such a "critical issue". Why is it then this problem is only found with OSG and no other apps? It's because NO ONE uses this combination. It's a minor for ATI because no one cares about OSG. Of course now that this guy is getting loud about these issues they will be fixed.

Chris fails to mention how ATI has already fixed quite a few bugs only exhibited in OSG. So all of a sudden ATI is ignoring the issues? He needs to relax and realize that OSG isn't the most important app in the world and that ATI has higher priority things to be working on.

"All past and current ATI Catalyst drivers for all ATI Radeon series display cards contain several critical bugs that render the hardware unusable in professional 3D visual simulation applications." Talk about an over-exaggeration.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: akugami
Wreckage, false generalizations at every turn is an attack. The truth is ATI has drivers that are about on par with nVidia as far as stability goes in the Windows front.

In your opinion. You should clarify that. That does not make it a fact or "truth".

So I am a much better judge of the differences between the two architectures than someone like yourself who I doubt has even used a system with an ATI card except in passing.

Now this is where you are dead wrong. I work on computers for a living and my laptop has an ATI GPU. I have been working with both driver sets for years and I have had both cards over the years. So that would make me a better judge than you, by your definition.

And anyone who expects professional level features and service from a consumer level card is an idiot.

That's the most ridiculous statement I have seen. The article already stated that the programs they use run on consumer level NVIDIA cards. It's also worth noting that the problems do appear in the FireGL line.

You are calling people idiots because their card can do what yours can't. What does that make you?

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
some more clarification from the author

b3d link

Vysez>Why should Ati provide support for something that they never advertised in the first place?
I guess ATI never specifically listed SGIS_generate_mipmap as a feature in their magazine ads -- once you put in all the explosions and Dawn & Dusk's curvy... faces, there's not enough room. But one could argue that when they list SGIS_generate_mipmap in the glextensions call, they're advertising that it's there and can be expected to work. As I said before, if you can't make it work, don't have your driver offer up a busted implementation that software will be convinced to try and use.

Troll Alert - Dawn and Dusk are the nVidia babes. You'd think someone who talks to so many vendors would be able to get his digital Ho's right.

When we troll on forums, we get locks and bans. I should start trolling in print - it seems to get you places.

- M4H

 

[BenSkywalker]

I love how the GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap + compressed textures problem is such a "critical issue". Why is it then this problem is only found with OSG and no other apps? It's because NO ONE uses this combination.

The problem is ATi lies and claims they support it at the driver level. When the app goes looking for support, it sees ATi's lie and thinks it will work, then it doesn't. If ATi didn't flat out lie then there would be a problem.

He needs to relax and realize that OSG isn't the most important app in the world and that ATI has higher priority things to be working on.

If ATi didn't lie in their drivers then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[FlasHBurN]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

I love how the GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap + compressed textures problem is such a "critical issue". Why is it then this problem is only found with OSG and no other apps? It's because NO ONE uses this combination.

The problem is ATi lies and claims they support it at the driver level. When the app goes looking for support, it sees ATi's lie and thinks it will work, then it doesn't. If ATi didn't flat out lie then there would be a problem.

He needs to relax and realize that OSG isn't the most important app in the world and that ATI has higher priority things to be working on.

If ATi didn't lie in their drivers then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Well, it isn't a "lie", it's a bug. GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap by it self does work, the problem is using it in conjuction with compressed textures. Regardless, the problem will probably be fixed soon, I just don't like the way Chris went about it.

 

[Keysplayr]

Everybody! Is this a problem or not? All I see are ati fans making excuses? Why? Don't they want this fixed if they use their computers professionally? Or is it they have blinders on and will only look at what "they" use their cards for? I dunno man. I really wish you guys would stop joking around and take something seriously once in a while. This seems to be a problem otherwise this subject WOULD NEVER HAVE EXISTED.... Don't make excuses for it. Address it, and put pressure on ATI to fix it just as you would put pressure on Nvidia to fix something they aren't doing right. Sheesh.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Well, it isn't a "lie", it's a bug. GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap by it self does work, the problem is using it in conjuction with compressed textures.

They claim they support both, they have been repeatedly notified about the issue for months and will not remove the string from their caps, if they are not working then they shouldn't be in there. The fact that ATi KNOWS they are not working and has known about it for months and refuses to remove the string from their caps does make it into a lie. Of course they are going to have trouble fixing it(if they can), this is ATi's driver team we are talking about. The fact that they refuse to pull the cap which would allow the app to fall back to software and render properly is a major issue.

 

[Gstanfor]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: Gstanfor
some more clarification from the author

b3d link

Vysez>Why should Ati provide support for something that they never advertised in the first place?
I guess ATI never specifically listed SGIS_generate_mipmap as a feature in their magazine ads -- once you put in all the explosions and Dawn & Dusk's curvy... faces, there's not enough room. But one could argue that when they list SGIS_generate_mipmap in the glextensions call, they're advertising that it's there and can be expected to work. As I said before, if you can't make it work, don't have your driver offer up a busted implementation that software will be convinced to try and use.

Troll Alert - Dawn and Dusk are the nVidia babes. You'd think someone who talks to so many vendors would be able to get his digital Ho's right.

When we troll on forums, we get locks and bans. I should start trolling in print - it seems to get you places.

- M4H

Sigh! You haven't read all of the B3D thread, have you?

b3d link

Originally Posted by digitalwanderer
Fair enough, I guess I do see your point. They should live up to the standards if they advertise the cards adhere to them.

Just one little nit-picky thing:


Dawn & Dusk are nVidias "mascotettes".

Ah, yes. I was... distracted... by having recently seen the ATI wrapper for Dawn. I wouldn't know! I've never run Dawn or Dusk on my system! Really! I only do _professional_ OpenGL work, not... oh, forget it.

 

[HeXploiT]

Well, it isn't a "lie", it's a bug. GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap by it self does work, the problem is using it in conjuction with compressed textures. Regardless, the problem will probably be fixed soon, I just don't like the way Chris went about it.

I have a really nice boat. I can't put it in the water because it'll sink buts it's really a nice looking boat.

 

[Praxis1452]

that's perfectly fine.

 

[FlasHBurN]

Originally posted by: BenSkywalker

Well, it isn't a "lie", it's a bug. GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap by it self does work, the problem is using it in conjuction with compressed textures.

They claim they support both, they have been repeatedly notified about the issue for months and will not remove the string from their caps, if they are not working then they shouldn't be in there. The fact that ATi KNOWS they are not working and has known about it for months and refuses to remove the string from their caps does make it into a lie. Of course they are going to have trouble fixing it(if they can), this is ATi's driver team we are talking about. The fact that they refuse to pull the cap which would allow the app to fall back to software and render properly is a major issue.

Okay sure, then every single bug ATI (and Nvidia) has filed is a "lie". Why would they pull the extension from their driver when most of the time it works. If that was the case, both Nvidia and ATI wouldn't have driver support for ANYTHING.

I doubt ATI was ignoring the bug, it just simply wasn't considered high priority. Like I said earlier, ATI has already fixed many problems for Chris, they clearly are not ignoring him.

I guess I should figure that most of you guys would blow this out of proportion (which is exactly what Chris wanted). If you bothered to pull your heads out of your asses you would see that both ATI and Nvidia have many, many different bugs and cannot fix them all at once.

 

[Howard]

Would the fix improve performance in OpenGL games at all?

 

[schtuga]

Originally posted by: Howard
Would the fix improve performance in OpenGL games at all?

This is the question I've been wondering why no one has asked.

If they fix this problem,will this negate the advantage Nvidia has in ogl games?Or is there more to it than that?

 

[Vinnybcfc]

Originally posted by: schtuga

Originally posted by: Howard
Would the fix improve performance in OpenGL games at all?

This is the question I've been wondering why no one has asked.

If they fix this problem,will this negate the advantage Nvidia has in ogl games?Or is there more to it than that?

I assume there is more to it as this is only covering one extension but im not a expert in OpenGL

 

[dfloyd]

Why does anyone reply to anything Gastanfor posts, hes obviously a AEG wannabe (Sad as he does it for free, at least Rollo got paid). He posts more Nvidia PR than Nvidia themselves do, he actually makes me wish we had Rollo back.

But to the point at hand, who cares. Honestly this has nothing to do with gaming, what the cards are used and intended for so what is the point? I could just as easily say Nvidias drivers have bugs, if you dont believe this take thirty secs and join a Nvidia forum. Its got nothing to do with nothing, so what is the relevance? That some professional 3d renders got free 3d stuff from Nvidia so now they back them? Seems to be the only relevance I can see.

Now as far as me being biosed one way or the other I am not, I have owned em all and many of them all dating all the way back to my Hercules Mono Graphics card and my big bad CGA cards (Man those things smoked lol). But posting things like this just have not relevance when you are speaking about professional graphics and cosumer based video cards. Is it so hard to compare apples to apples?

Edit: And to all the Nvidia people shooting Ati down for this one problem please riddle me this, What game does this problem effect?

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: dfloyd
Why does anyone reply to anything Gastanfor posts, hes obviously a AEG wannabe (Sad as he does it for free, at least Rollo got paid). He posts more Nvidia PR than Nvidia themselves do, he actually makes me wish we had Rollo back.

But to the point at hand, who cares. Honestly this has nothing to do with gaming, what the cards are used and intended for so what is the point? I could just as easily say Nvidias drivers have bugs, if you dont believe this take thirty secs and join a Nvidia forum. Its got nothing to do with nothing, so what is the relevance? That some professional 3d renders got free 3d stuff from Nvidia so now they back them? Seems to be the only relevance I can see.

Now as far as me being biosed one way or the other I am not, I have owned em all and many of them all dating all the way back to my Hercules Mono Graphics card and my big bad CGA cards (Man those things smoked lol). But posting things like this just have not relevance when you are speaking about professional graphics and cosumer based video cards. Is it so hard to compare apples to apples?

Edit: And to all the Nvidia people shooting Ati down for this one problem please riddle me this, What game does this problem effect?

I don't see you make the same comment when joker posts...:roll:

 

[dfloyd]

Sorry friend I dont know Joker. I dont recall ever posting or discussing things with him, if I have then I do not recall it.

Is he a fanboy one way or the other? And I post on Gastonfor as one day we had a discussion and he totally ignored every thing I posted, he changed his argument over and over and never made the slighest bit of a understandable argument. He made claims that were unsubstantiated, never replyed to valid numbers (With links to back them up), continued to make wild claims, never stayed on topic, and basically was claiming Nvidia was better at things that were shown not to be.

So I made the above post based on that. As far as replys go I wont reply to him period, he just doesnt make any sense.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: dfloyd
But to the point at hand, who cares. Honestly this has nothing to do with gaming

This is not a gaming forum. If it was your point would be valid. However it is a video forum so this matters to some people here.

Should people not discuss issues here unless they affect you?

 

[dfloyd]

Nope they can post anything they like, but imo, to get valid disscussion and replys it would make since to point out problems with things, they should have something to do with the thing they are claiming the problem exists for. At least imo.

Again please read the rest of my post, What does a non-professional consumer based 3d card not working right with professional 3d graphics development have to do with professional 3d graphics?

Apples to Apples, pretty please? Dont make me add sugar

Edit: After getting roughly half way through this post it appeared to be one thing and one thing only. An attempt to smear Ati. The strange thing to me was they were smearing Atis cards based on something that these same Ati cards were never meant for. Relativity anyone?

And I am not saying the OP meant it that way, that just what it appeared to have become and that is why I posted the way I did.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: schtuga

Originally posted by: Howard
Would the fix improve performance in OpenGL games at all?

This is the question I've been wondering why no one has asked.

If they fix this problem,will this negate the advantage Nvidia has in ogl games?Or is there more to it than that?

I doubt it. Games nowadays are not using it because ATI's drivers cannot handle it, so unless developers recode their games to use the extension after ATI fixes it, games won't get any speed advantages. I don't know about the VSync. It could free up 15% of CPU, which would only make AI and physics faster, not graphics rendering. Although it could affect the updating of the whole "game frame", which is what the CPU still controls. If the CPU is awaiting a frame from the graphics card, the 15% boost may help it throw it to the screen whilst maintaining sync with network/mouse/AI/physics. It really depends where the 15% gets freed. I'm not sure if it locks the whole CPU or just its execution thread. It's a little complicated to judge where the performance advantages would show up at this point.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: dfloyd
Why does anyone reply to anything Gastanfor posts, hes obviously a AEG wannabe (Sad as he does it for free, at least Rollo got paid). He posts more Nvidia PR than Nvidia themselves do, he actually makes me wish we had Rollo back.

But to the point at hand, who cares. Honestly this has nothing to do with gaming, what the cards are used and intended for so what is the point? I could just as easily say Nvidias drivers have bugs, if you dont believe this take thirty secs and join a Nvidia forum. Its got nothing to do with nothing, so what is the relevance? That some professional 3d renders got free 3d stuff from Nvidia so now they back them? Seems to be the only relevance I can see.

Now as far as me being biosed one way or the other I am not, I have owned em all and many of them all dating all the way back to my Hercules Mono Graphics card and my big bad CGA cards (Man those things smoked lol). But posting things like this just have not relevance when you are speaking about professional graphics and cosumer based video cards. Is it so hard to compare apples to apples?

Edit: And to all the Nvidia people shooting Ati down for this one problem please riddle me this, What game does this problem effect?

Your argument would be valid only if everybody here only used their PCs for games.

 

[Sonikku]

Originally posted by: clandren

Originally posted by: Thera
Thank goodness the Radeon series is for home use and not Professional Graphics. Which is basically the difference between rendering for speed (gaming) and rendering for accuracy (professional). If you're an IT manager and purchased a "home" product for a 3d department then you've made a poor decision.

I have a Radeon at home, I've also used Geforce, and use both FireGL and Quadro FX at work. Bringing a gaming card into the work place would be like using a Yugo to pull a tractor trailer.

i was thinking pretty much the same thing

Yeah really. Get a quadro you moron.

 

[dfloyd]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: dfloyd
Why does anyone reply to anything Gastanfor posts, hes obviously a AEG wannabe (Sad as he does it for free, at least Rollo got paid). He posts more Nvidia PR than Nvidia themselves do, he actually makes me wish we had Rollo back.

But to the point at hand, who cares. Honestly this has nothing to do with gaming, what the cards are used and intended for so what is the point? I could just as easily say Nvidias drivers have bugs, if you dont believe this take thirty secs and join a Nvidia forum. Its got nothing to do with nothing, so what is the relevance? That some professional 3d renders got free 3d stuff from Nvidia so now they back them? Seems to be the only relevance I can see.

Now as far as me being biosed one way or the other I am not, I have owned em all and many of them all dating all the way back to my Hercules Mono Graphics card and my big bad CGA cards (Man those things smoked lol). But posting things like this just have not relevance when you are speaking about professional graphics and cosumer based video cards. Is it so hard to compare apples to apples?

Edit: And to all the Nvidia people shooting Ati down for this one problem please riddle me this, What game does this problem effect?

Your argument would be valid only if everybody here only used their PCs for games.

No my argument would be invalid if all the posts were only about professional graphics series 3d cards, considering they are not all about that then my arguement is valid.

And I never stated people only game, but condeming gaming based cards for not supporting a feature of professional series 3d graphics cards seems unfair to me.