3D is universally reviled online, but IRL people seem to dig it...

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Jul 10, 2007
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Its quite good, I wouldnt deviate from the defaults very far or else it looks odd. Frame rate is hurt a bit when youre in last place, but still silky smooth in first place with few cars on screen.

The problem is that its GT5, a game I'm really not that excited about to begin with. But the 3D in it is quite good. Its well done, doesnt pop out from the screen so much as go deep in, but you can change that.

just tried it over the weekend. i use the in car view mostly and it seemed that the only things that popped out were the rear view mirror and the various displays (tach, speedo, time, rankings, etc.).

and is it just my tv or is the cockpit view really messed up and fuzzy in 3D. areas around the wheel and dash.
 

zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
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Firstly some people IIRC get dizzy when watching 3d. Pretty hard investing on a 3d set that causes a problem with some users.

The next major problem would be the glasses. It's inconvenient. Having to wear those every time your going to watch is a pain. Also those glasses aren't cheap what if i left them on the couch then someone sat on them and broke them.

Edit:
Don't get me wrong its not like i hate 3d or anything its just too much hassle for the effect
 
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disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
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Heh... I have issues with the diorama effect when watching 3D. Rather than appearing as if I'm looking out a window, I sometimes get the feeling I'm looking at a diorama and everything is tiny. It sort ruins the epic feel of movies when that happens. It usually only last few a seconds, but it's certainly jarring.

You really need a big display to do 3d right. 3ds? What a joke. You'll see.

For the home, a 3d projector will be the easiest way to do 3d justice. Unfortunately 1080p 3d projectors are beyond most peoples budget for now. 720p 3d is affordable. I'm talking at minimum 80" screen size.

The other problem with 3d is the bandwidth required cannot be carried by standard HDMI, so resolution is constrained. Not good. But shows promise. It needs displayport's high bandwidth and 1080p 3d on a large format to be really good. And it needs to be made affordable. Maybe in a couple of years.
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
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3D gives me a headache (i have a bad astigmatism and very poor depth perception).

Plus, I already wear glasses, so putting on those stereoscopic glasses over my real glasses is very uncomfortable/awkward.

Somebody wake me when we have holographic projection, I'm sleeping this "3D Wave" out.
 

KaOTiK

Lifer
Feb 5, 2001
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I have the nvidia 3D vision setup on my PC with the Alienware monitor. I love it and praise it, but there are times I wont use it. All my friends were skeptical but when they came over and I loaded up various games for them, each one loved it and a few have even gotten it now or in the middle of upgrading parts to get it.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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You really need a big display to do 3d right. 3ds? What a joke. You'll see.

For the home, a 3d projector will be the easiest way to do 3d justice. Unfortunately 1080p 3d projectors are beyond most peoples budget for now. 720p 3d is affordable. I'm talking at minimum 80" screen size.

The other problem with 3d is the bandwidth required cannot be carried by standard HDMI, so resolution is constrained. Not good. But shows promise. It needs displayport's high bandwidth and 1080p 3d on a large format to be really good. And it needs to be made affordable. Maybe in a couple of years.

HDMI has enough bandwidth for 1080p/24hz. It's not really a constraint for movies, and a higher resolution standard just isn't realistic for cinema.

Future consoles may be able to take advantage of 1080p/60, but 3d is stuck at 720p. But given the extra resources required to do 3d at all, 720p is probably the upper limit for 3d for even the next gen.
 

HeXen

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2009
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i remember years and years ago i bought a VR 3d headset, what sold me was how the screen looks like sitting in front of a 60", cause back then the largest typical TV was the rear projections around 50 or so inches and were pricey...before HD were sold to consumers. what made me sick was seeing how really horrible the LCD screens were. horrible inaccurate colors, brights were too bright, darks were too dark no matter how you adjusted em....POS. I never upgraded to any LCD till you couldn't even buy CRT's it haunted me so bad.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
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HDMI has enough bandwidth for 1080p/24hz. It's not really a constraint for movies, and a higher resolution standard just isn't realistic for cinema.

Future consoles may be able to take advantage of 1080p/60, but 3d is stuck at 720p. But given the extra resources required to do 3d at all, 720p is probably the upper limit for 3d for even the next gen.

3D is most certainly not stuck at 720p. Dual link DVI and displayport can handle 1080p/60 3D. Some monitors already do 1080p 120hz (60 for each eye in 3D) using dual link DVI now. Display port will only make that more ubiquitous for the next gen equipment.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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3D is most certainly not stuck at 720p. Dual link DVI and displayport can handle 1080p/60 3D. Some monitors already do 1080p 120hz (60 for each eye in 3D) using dual link DVI now. Display port will only make that more ubiquitous for the next gen equipment.

Well, I dont see any TVs coming out with displayport or DL DVI. Its up in the air whether the next consoles will have them, I suspect without the support in the TVs, the consoles wont either.
 

MikeyLSU

Platinum Member
Dec 21, 2005
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I wish I could have it.

I just got a new TV that is 3d ready(73" DLP), but I just can't convince myselft that the $250 price for an adapter and 2 pairs of glasses are worth it for the little content out there. I have seen test demos at stores and really liked it, but again, the price is just too high.
 

rolodomo

Senior member
Mar 19, 2004
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Post processing 3d is worthless. The depth it adds has almost no relation to the image it's processing. Absolutely terrible.

You need a tv that can do 3d and games programmed specifically for it.

Let me guess, you have the first generation Panasonic 3D TV incapable of 2D to 3D conversion?

I swear by the post-processing my Samsung does. The depth is realistic. Better than a lot of 3D source content, where things unrealistically "pop" out at you for show. I've recently played Dead Space and Flight Simulator X and the 2D to 3D effects are understated and excellent.

The company that makes this technology is called dynamic digital DEPTH ("DDD"). Samsung leases this technology to build into their 3D TV(s). AMD also uses DDD for their HD3D software in order to compete with NVIDIA's 3DVision. Not suprising really, since 3DVision also relies upon their own 2D to 3D conversion tech. to support all those 2D games.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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I actually have the samsung c8000 series, probably the same one you do. I'm simply just not going to be impressed by a pseudo-3d effect. Sure, there is depth when you enable it, but it never seems to correlate with what it should. It's not worth the drawbacks to me if it's not a proper 3d representation of the game world.

I'll give it another try with dead space 2 tonight, but I have very little faith in the tech based on what I saw.
 

Ross Ridge

Senior member
Dec 21, 2009
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Roger Ebert recently posted some devastating technical criticism of steroscopic 3D from an industry expert on his blog. The expert, Walter Murch a film editor and sound designer, gives several reasons why the technology is flawed, the biggest and most fundamental being the need to focus your eyes at one distance (the screen) while converging them at another (the illusionary position of the 3D object). While the most of the other problems he mentions (like dimness) can potentially be fixed, as humans we're just not setup to view objects that way.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Roger Ebert recently posted some devastating technical criticism of steroscopic 3D from an industry expert on his blog. The expert, Walter Murch a film editor and sound designer, gives several reasons why the technology is flawed, the biggest and most fundamental being the need to focus your eyes at one distance (the screen) while converging them at another (the illusionary position of the 3D object). While the most of the other problems he mentions (like dimness) can potentially be fixed, as humans we're just not setup to view objects that way.

I figured it was a matter of time before someone posted that nonsense.

As humans, we're not set up to watch low resolution screens, flickering 24 times a second, with various parts of the scene out of focus, poor coloration and constant scene and perspective shifts. There's a ton of ways in which normal "flat" video is completely divorced from reality, but our brain deals just fine. Stereoscopic is no different.

Give your psychovisual system and your brain some credit. If the plane of focus was so fundamental to depth perception, stereoscopic 3d wouldn't work at all. But it works just fine. Some people apparently get headaches, but there's absolutely zero evidence this is the root cause or even a contributing factor. I can watch 3d for hours without a headache, through the apparently evil active shutter glasses. I also don't get motion sickness from games either, although apparently some people do as well.

Just cause some cranky old man (who's a sound engineer, not a cognitive scientist) says something with an air of authority doesn't make it true. My personal experience (which includes upper level cognitive science classes on the psychovisual system) tells me that what he's saying is total garbage.
 
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Thraxen

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2001
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I figured it was a matter of time before someone posted that nonsense.

Not sure about the science behind viewing the images, but I did notice this quote:

"Somehow the glasses "gather in" the image -- even on a huge Imax screen -- and make it seem half the scope of the same image when looked at without the glasses."

He's seems to be talking about the diorama effect I mentioned earlier. I think the "gathering in" effect he's talking about is due to way the 3D image collapses at the edge of the screen as opposes to simply stopping (like something might appear out a window). I think it's that collapse that ruins the scale.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
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Gimmick.

Pass.
__________________
Oh, let's have a Patrick Swayze Christmas this year
Or we'll tear your throat out and kick you in the ear
It's my way or the highway, this Christmas at my bar
I'll have to smash your kneecaps if you bastards touch my car!
Oh, let's have a Patrick Swayze Christmas, one and all.
And this can be the haziest...
This can be the laziest...
This can be the Swayziest Christmas of them all!

Was he always like this? Do they take off his straitjacket to let him type or does someone type for him?
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Not sure about the science behind viewing the images, but I did notice this quote:

"Somehow the glasses "gather in" the image -- even on a huge Imax screen -- and make it seem half the scope of the same image when looked at without the glasses."

He's seems to be talking about the diorama effect I mentioned earlier. I think the "gathering in" effect he's talking about is due to way the 3D image collapses at the edge of the screen as opposes to simply stopping (like something might appear out a window). I think it's that collapse that ruins the scale.

Well when you're viewing 3d, technically you can only fully converge on one plane at a time. Most of the time the image will go deep past the screen, in which case you're focusing on a more "distant" object than the screen itself, which is necessarily going to feel smaller, and you're not really paying attention to the periphery because you're focusing forward.

The important thing to recognize before anyone writes off 3d because of that is that this is part and parcel of how we perceive things. Flattening the image to a 2d screen simplifies what you're seeing greatly, and you may be able to notice things that you otherwise wouldn't in 3d. This isnt a problem with 3d per se, but cinematographers and game designers are going to have to recognize that 3d is not just 2d with depth, that things are perceived in a different way on a fundamental level, and to film and design for it in a different way.

You'd notice certain things in black and white that you wouldn't with color - but that's a very poor argument against color. Often I take my 3d glasses off and think "hmm...the screen seems so much bigger now". But every time I play that mountain track in gt5 in 3d, the vastness and scale of the mountain range seem so much more grandiose.
 
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Ross Ridge

Senior member
Dec 21, 2009
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Just cause some cranky old man (who's a sound engineer, not a cognitive scientist) says something with an air of authority doesn't make it true.

And I knew you'd repsond with this nonsense. He's far more qualified and knowledgable about 3D movie technology than you. He's no luddite, he's a pioneer in surround sound and digital movie editting. He got an Acadamy Award nomination for editing a big budget film on a Mac. To dismiss him like this a crank only proves that you're a mindless fanboy, with no credibilty of your own.

But ultimately it doesn't matter what the experts say, and it certainly doesn't matter what some wannabe expert on the Internet says. What matters in the end is if consumers buy the technology or not. And they're not. And no, it's not because of some mass conspiracy of bloggers and journalists and their irrational hatred of the technology. Never mind that's just in your imagination, consumers just don't care what they have to say. Consumers make up their own minds about whether they think a new technology is worth it, and it often has little to do with the technical merits that most "experts" focus on.

You asked "where's the disconnect?" You've demonstrated in this thread don't actually want to know the answer to this question. You're just looking for more support that Internet is against you, er..., 3D technology. But if you actually did, you need to figure out what it is about 3D exactly people don't like. Why is what you think so amazing, so worth the price, not being bought by consumers who can easily afford it? Maybe it's just as simple as the need to wear glasses, any glasses. Maybe they while they get a momentary thrill, it's just not enough to make a switch. Heck, it could for any of the reasons Walter Murch or other "experts" have given. It could be something that could be fixed, and prove you right in the end. But you won't seriously consider any of this. You'd rather believe you're the lone person on the Internet standing up and defending the obvious and undeniable merits of 3D technology.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
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Consumers haven't bought into it en masse yet because it's too new. How many years after color TV came out before consumers had it in their living rooms on a grand scale? Substitute any new tech with that....vinyl records to tapes, tapes to cds, vhs to "laserdisc" then DVDs. Most people don't throw away equipment they have because something new is on the market. Some wait till their old set dies, or wait to save up for it. Wait till prices settle down or wait till "the joneses" get it. In other words, when seemingly everyone else has it and they feel left out.

There is not even much content in 3D available yet. There is not even a 3D standard, it's all over the place because it's new.

For a new technology in a crap economy with no standards and barely any content I'd say it's actually taking off a lot faster than expected. But then I see things as they are, not through crap colored glasses. So much for you not feeling comfortable wearing glasses.
 
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BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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And I knew you'd repsond with this nonsense. He's far more qualified and knowledgable about 3D movie technology than you. He's no luddite, he's a pioneer in surround sound and digital movie editting. He got an Acadamy Award nomination for editing a big budget film on a Mac. To dismiss him like this a crank only proves that you're a mindless fanboy, with no credibilty of your own.

Sure, he's got great credentials, but what hes saying doesn't pass the smell test. First off, ebert is the one who says "this is why 3d will never work". What Murch says (paraphrasing), is "yes, your brain can handle this, which is why 3d works, but it makes your brain work really hard and gives people headaches after 20 minutes." Which is a completely baseless statement. I don't get headaches after 20 minutes, nor did anyone else with me during avatar, shrek, call of duty etc. Those who do appear to be in the minority. I take him seriously as far as his expertise goes, and I trust what he says about editing 3d movies. But he's not a neuroscientist or neurologist. He's telling me I should have a headache, but I don't. The whole "our brains weren't prepared to watch this" simply doesn't make sense at face value for a whole host of reasons, but I've already been over that. Here's what I know: I put on 3D glasses, I see in 3D. I don't care if Jesus himself tells me that it doesn't work, when my eyes tell me it does.

But ultimately it doesn't matter what the experts say, and it certainly doesn't matter what some wannabe expert on the Internet says. What matters in the end is if consumers buy the technology or not. And they're not. And no, it's not because of some mass conspiracy of bloggers and journalists and their irrational hatred of the technology. Never mind that's just in your imagination, consumers just don't care what they have to say. Consumers make up their own minds about whether they think a new technology is worth it, and it often has little to do with the technical merits that most "experts" focus on.

Sure, but this is a nascent, expensive technology. Nobody should be surprised it's not selling in huge amounts yet, I certainly never expected it to. I didn't start this thread for a discussion about sales, but about what people thought of the tech itself.

You asked "where's the disconnect?" You've demonstrated in this thread don't actually want to know the answer to this question. You're just looking for more support that Internet is against you, er..., 3D technology. But if you actually did, you need to figure out what it is about 3D exactly people don't like. Why is what you think so amazing, so worth the price, not being bought by consumers who can easily afford it? Maybe it's just as simple as the need to wear glasses, any glasses. Maybe they while they get a momentary thrill, it's just not enough to make a switch. Heck, it could for any of the reasons Walter Murch or other "experts" have given. It could be something that could be fixed, and prove you right in the end. But you won't seriously consider any of this. You'd rather believe you're the lone person on the Internet standing up and defending the obvious and undeniable merits of 3D technology.

I dunno why I'm even responding to this, but thats a completely ridiculous personal attack. This thread is a few days old. The discussion has evolved far beyond the original post, and Im just partaking in the discussion as it goes. I didn't know I was required to post a report after several days discussing what I've learned. It's clear there's a number of reasons why people haven't made the jump yet or aren't interested. All that rubbish you just spouted is quite the impressive psychoanalysis, but seriously dude, relax. Id like people to share my enthusiasm about something I think is cool, nothing more.
 
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BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Let me guess, you have the first generation Panasonic 3D TV incapable of 2D to 3D conversion?

I swear by the post-processing my Samsung does. The depth is realistic. Better than a lot of 3D source content, where things unrealistically "pop" out at you for show. I've recently played Dead Space and Flight Simulator X and the 2D to 3D effects are understated and excellent.

The company that makes this technology is called dynamic digital DEPTH ("DDD"). Samsung leases this technology to build into their 3D TV(s). AMD also uses DDD for their HD3D software in order to compete with NVIDIA's 3DVision. Not suprising really, since 3DVision also relies upon their own 2D to 3D conversion tech. to support all those 2D games.

I just gave the 2d-3d conversion another try with dead space. Couldn't do it for more than 5 minutes. Yeah, theres definitely some subtle depth, but its in the wrong places. The image just doesn't look right to me. If anything 3d related is going to give me a headache, that's going to be it. Perhaps it works better with film rather than games?
 

ed21x

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 2001
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Most people are still waiting until we settle on a standard way to pull off 3d, and those expensive glasses is definitely not going to work. nobody wants to shell out $200 per viewer just to have the whole family + friends enjoy it. The day 3d tv takes off is when passive 3d glasses via polarization becomes the norm, and that technology will be at least a few months away, and at least a year away from being affordable to the mainstream audience. Given the current price, I would rather spend the extra money on a higher spec 2d display with better resolution, refresh, contrast, LED, etc...
 

Pr0d1gy

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2005
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You really need a big display to do 3d right. 3ds? What a joke. You'll see.

No you actually don't need a huge screen to do it, the affect can be achieved in any size screen with the proper setup. You should do some research on the 3DS, it's really amazing. Glasses free 3D in a handheld. Keep in mind we were all using Gameboys 5 years ago. The tech in the 3DS is very different from the tech they use in TV's because they didn't need to have a wide viewing angle, and it is this tech that allows for the glases free viewing.

I think the biggest drawback to 3D is the glasses. People just feel wierd wearing glasses in their house. Plus so many people already wear script glasses.

Wow, did you guys hear about the Iowa football team??? Crazy stuff.
 
Oct 19, 2000
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I think the biggest drawback to 3D is the glasses. People just feel wierd wearing glasses in their house.

I never can understand the argument against current 3D technology because of the glasses. I think I hear more detractions about having to wear the glasses than the investment into 3D itself. I have no problem wearing the glasses because of the fact that it's in my own home. You may look goofy, but one of two things are happening:

1. You're by yourself or with very close family. If you're embarrassed enough that you can't wear the glasses in your own home, you have bigger issues.

2. If you're watching with a group of friends, everybody is going to have the glasses on, so who should really care?

Now if the arguments are that 3D glasses are causing headaches, don't fit correctly with prescription glasses, or are too expensive, I think these are valid complaints.