3/4 - 1 ton pickup truck, Standard or Automatic transmission?

[Cyberian]

If you are using the truck as a pleasure mobile, get it in 4x4 no matter who you choose. If you will be towing, get the 2x veriosn, as they can usually tow more.

Isn't the extra towing capacity of a 4x2 usually due to the lower weight of the vehicle itself (as opposed to a 4x4)?

 

[Jzero]

All I can tell you is my gf's experience from towing horse trailers the last 10 years, and she says if you're towing something like a gooseneck horse trailer in hilly country you're actually better off with an auto which will shift faster than you can shift a manual, and will probably downshift going uphill before you think to downshift a manual. She has a Silverado although I don't remember the engine config.

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: Noriaki

Originally posted by: Chaotic42
If you are going to haul a lot of weight, you want a bunch of gears. You slowly work up your inertia.
Manuals are all (almost) 5 speed, some are 6.

I've never encountered an auto with more than 4, though I know they exist.

Don't you lose a bunch of inertia when you are shifting gears though?


Another question, can you get Cruise Control with a Manual Transmission? I've heard that you can...but how the heck does it work?

Lose inertia? Maybe if you're going steep uphill or you take a really long time to shift. Your car slows down when you get off the gas because of engine braking. Try shifting the auto into neutral next time THEN get off the gas, see how the car just coasts almost at the same speed?

 

[rahvin]

Originally posted by: Jzero
All I can tell you is my gf's experience from towing horse trailers the last 10 years, and she says if you're towing something like a gooseneck horse trailer in hilly country you're actually better off with an auto which will shift faster than you can shift a manual, and will probably downshift going uphill before you think to downshift a manual. She has a Silverado although I don't remember the engine config.

[blatent]What does she know, she's a girl.[/blatent]

In my experience you want the manual. You have more torque control and in heavy load situations you can't put an auto into overdrive. I've known quite a few people that smoked auto trasmissions hauling big loads, and tranny jobs on big trucks are expensive (can run upwards of 5-6g's if it takes the differential with it). If you are going to be offroad a lot driving slow you probably want the auto, if you are going to be freeway driving with big loads you want the manual. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Evadman]

Time to answer punches of questions...

What about GM or Ford? Can their transmissions handle the torque? Or do you just not want to do that sort of thing with an Auto? And what exactly is a slushbox? Is that just a slang for Auto?

Dodge is the only one I have heard of having wide spread tranny problems when loading and overloading the truck. The Allison is pretty much indestructable from what I understand. Dodge MAY be offering it on the new generation 2500 and 35500 trucks. I hope so. I would pick one up in a heatbeat. Sadly, it is a fully computerized tranny, so it would be next to impossable to hook it up to my truck at the moment. Supposedly, a few people are working on breaking the code so that the computer can be updated.

Slushbox = Automatic

Do you find that a Manual looses any inertia when you shift? Pulling a big trailer up a hill say.

You don't shift on hills usually. But you will loose speed when you shift if you do, but it is not a problem at all. The only place a stick would not work would be in either sand or mud as wheel spin is needed to keep you on top. Obviously, you will not run into these too often unless you want to.

An automatic will offer some torque multiplication when starting from a dead stop, but that is generally negated by the higher ratios in the transmission.

The converter is generaly concidered to be an extra "gear" with 2:1 multiplication. That is why Autos generaly have a lower numericly ( such as 3.15:1 ) first gear, while manuals have a first gear in the 5:1 range. (trucks anyway) Then you still get the multiplication.

It's my understanding that if you want to tow something, or put a snow plow on it, the automatic is the way to go. If you don't do either of these, and don't mind shifting, save some gas and get the stick.

Heavy duty work is what I stick is made for. not the other way around. Autos are mostly for convience. Driving a sick to work in bumper to bumper trafic sucks when you can have 500+ clutch cycles in a few hours.

you would want a manual for heavy towing due to the fact that auto trannies will create alot of heat while under that much of a load (even with a large tranny cooler). the tranny will actually be slipping somewhat in higher gears, and if you do have an auto and your pulling a load, make sure you take it out of OD when you are. OD is a cruise gear that has very weak bands not meant for a heavy load.

heat is the killer of an automatic. 15 minutes @ 300 degrees will kill it dead. You are absolutely correct about the slippage. It heats up the fluid more than it is desined for and starts to break down into water. If you look at trucks that have autos and are made for towing,you will see a trans cooler that is 50-80% the size of the radiator. My dodge has one that covers 80% of the space in front of the radiator, while the other 20% is for the AC condenser. ( Yes I still have it installed 🙂 ) OD usually has a smaller clutch pack as well, so it can slip more. The only band I know of in most tranny's is for reverse. but I could easily be wrong.

Isn't the extra towing capacity of a 4x2 usually due to the lower weight of the vehicle itself (as opposed to a 4x4)?

Usually it is because the transfer case ( the unit that sends power to the front wheels in 4x4 mode ) is not made to handle the weight of a large trailer.

 

[Mister T]

If I am not mistaken, is not the Chevy 3500 dually with the Duramax Diesel + Allison tranny the king of the Hill these days?

 

[Sluggo]

Guy at work had a new Duramax diesel the other day, it was really quiet at idle compared to the Ford Super Dutys I have heard. Made a diesel not seem so bad. 🙂

 

[Evadman]

Unless the Duramax Diesel has changed recently, I would recomend against it. It does not have 1/2 the high strength parts the cummins has. Such as forged steel "everything" 🙂 Yes the Cummins is obnoxious to some, ( ok, most ) But it is the champ of the light truck world.

But if you do go with the Duramax Diesel you can get a off the shelf propane fumigation setup to add between 50 and 150 hp by allowing the engine to burn 95% of the fuel in the cyl instead of the usual 75%. ( and get better MPG while your at it ) You have to watch the EGT's though. 1300+ for extended periods can be detramental.

 

[Goosemaster]

After recently aquiring a new Honda accord..manually Trany.....I must say that Manual does have its benefits. This is also coming from the fact that my Dad drives an F350 manual...maybe it is a 250...I don't remember perfectly..haven't messed with it in a while


Anyways, I think the most beneficial thing about Manual trannies in trucks is the Engine Braking. THrough this, most of the momentum of the car is wasted in rpms in the engine, helping you stop with an increasing decrease in momentum. In either the car, or in the truck under heavy load, systematically lowering gears at your request can :

A) Save your ass by slowing the entire vechicle quickly without shredding your tires..but poor poor drivetrain shaft

B) Improve the longevity or prevent an outright failure on the part of the brakes.


In addition, a manual tranny, as some have asked, Will not loose too much momentum in Changing gears.

Between every gear, the transmission always cycles THROUGH neutral..so when done correctly, the car will, as someone put it, "coast" temporaily

You have to understand that the connection between the Clutch(transmission which is connected to the drive-train) and the Flywheel(crankshaft which is connected to the engine block) are basically two circle plates that make contact. So in between the gear Changes, the car always passes through a neutral point. THat is why, even under huge loads, as long as you reach a significant rpm rate before you change gears, and shift quickly, plus increase the gas pedal to compensate, you will only fell a "moment" of coasting.

On an incline, especially from a dead stop, I like manual transmissions bette becasue they allow you to build up speed, despite the fact that you have to get used to not rolling into the car behind you😕. WHat is key is the fact that if traffic is bad, you can accomadate for the slowdown by just leeting off the cas while your still in a lower gear and take advantage of the engine braking, without cutting off momentum by applying the brakes.


Basically, manual in heavy-load situations might be more cumbersome overall, but the benefits of the power I think outweigh the negatives.



Are you prepared to slam on the brakes with 2 tons of bricks in the back?


I Just shift into first😉











DEAR GOD: I'm turing into my physics professors!!!:Q:Q

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: Evadman
Unless the Duramax Diesel has changed recently, I would recomend against it. It does not have 1/2 the high strength parts the cummins has. Such as forged steel "everything" 🙂 Yes the Cummins is obnoxious to some, ( ok, most ) But it is the champ of the light truck world.

But if you do go with the Duramax Diesel you can get a off the shelf propane fumigation setup to add between 50 and 150 hp by allowing the engine to burn 95% of the fuel in the cyl instead of the usual 75%. ( and get better MPG while your at it ) You have to watch the EGT's though. 1300+ for extended periods can be detramental.

EGT's?

 

[Cyberian]

You don't shift on hills usually. But you will loose speed when you shift if you do, but it is not a problem at all. The only place a stick would not work would be in either sand or mud as wheel spin is needed to keep you on top. Obviously, you will not run into these too often unless you want to.

I am not following any of this.

I have read enough of your posts to know that you know of which you speak.

How could you not shift on a hill, and how does spinning your wheels in sand or mud keep you on top of anything?

 

[Goosemaster]

<---Has enjoyed -------------I AM OFFICIALLY A MAN--------------------***CONFIRMED*** and LOVES bragging about the fact that he can drive manual tranny...



😀😀

 

[Jzero]

you can accomadate for the slowdown by just leeting off the cas while your still in a lower gear and take advantage of the engine braking, without cutting off momentum by applying the brakes.

You do realize that even in an automatic if you let off the gas, you will slow down? Many autos you can even select the top gear. My gf often throws it in "3" or "2" when going downhill.

Are you prepared to slam on the brakes with 2 tons of bricks in the back?


I Just shift into first😉

You'd probably have a brake system on your trailer if you knew what was good for you, and you'd probably want to downshift AND brake, either way. Driving a compact car and towing 2+ tons of horse and 1/2 ton of trailer are pretty hard to compare 😉

 

[Sluggo]

Originally posted by: Goosemaster

Originally posted by: Evadman
Unless the Duramax Diesel has changed recently, I would recomend against it. It does not have 1/2 the high strength parts the cummins has. Such as forged steel "everything" 🙂 Yes the Cummins is obnoxious to some, ( ok, most ) But it is the champ of the light truck world.

But if you do go with the Duramax Diesel you can get a off the shelf propane fumigation setup to add between 50 and 150 hp by allowing the engine to burn 95% of the fuel in the cyl instead of the usual 75%. ( and get better MPG while your at it ) You have to watch the EGT's though. 1300+ for extended periods can be detramental.

EGT's?

I assume that EGT is Exhaust Gas Temperature.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: Cyberian

You don't shift on hills usually. But you will loose speed when you shift if you do, but it is not a problem at all. The only place a stick would not work would be in either sand or mud as wheel spin is needed to keep you on top. Obviously, you will not run into these too often unless you want to.

I am not following any of this.

I have read enough of your posts to know that you know of which you speak.

How could you not shift on a hill, and how does spinning your wheels in sand or mud keep you on top of anything?

I think he is referring to the loss of momentum.


Obviosuly, if you JUST press the clutch and shift(no gas) and take A HELL OF A LONG TIME TO DO IT, the car will struggle becasue it is using a now LESSER amount of force to turn a LARGER gear....

Once you get good....

<--prides himself in perfectiong the shifts😀😀😀😀


....you can shift quickly, usally giving the car extra momentum to use before you shift, so only the extra is lost, and the flywheel is moving fast enough for the next gear up to atleast move at a normal speed.

Once you perfect it, you can adapt to changing road conditions, and it doesn't pose such a problem anymore...

WHy do you think you hear manuals rev up like crazy on hills(or at least the fast drivers😀) ? WE accelerate to a point where the gear is working to a point where the next one can adaquately take over...so even on a hill, it ain't too bad...

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: Sluggo

Originally posted by: Goosemaster

Originally posted by: Evadman
Unless the Duramax Diesel has changed recently, I would recomend against it. It does not have 1/2 the high strength parts the cummins has. Such as forged steel "everything" 🙂 Yes the Cummins is obnoxious to some, ( ok, most ) But it is the champ of the light truck world.

But if you do go with the Duramax Diesel you can get a off the shelf propane fumigation setup to add between 50 and 150 hp by allowing the engine to burn 95% of the fuel in the cyl instead of the usual 75%. ( and get better MPG while your at it ) You have to watch the EGT's though. 1300+ for extended periods can be detramental.

EGT's?

I assume that EGT is Exhaust Gas Temperature.

Thanks..but 1300 degrees Fahrenheit? damn...

 

[Goosemaster]

Regardless, I'll ahve to agree with the people in my "manhood" thread...


Driving a manual over rocks and in mountainous terrain must be very challenging(TOTAL if not at least a GREAT deal of momentum loss)

 

[Cyberian]

Originally posted by: Goosemaster

Originally posted by: Cyberian

You don't shift on hills usually. But you will loose speed when you shift if you do, but it is not a problem at all. The only place a stick would not work would be in either sand or mud as wheel spin is needed to keep you on top. Obviously, you will not run into these too often unless you want to.

I am not following any of this.

I have read enough of your posts to know that you know of which you speak.

How could you not shift on a hill, and how does spinning your wheels in sand or mud keep you on top of anything?

I think he is referring to the loss of momentum.
Ok - He didn't say "loss of momemtum", he said "You don't shift on hills usually".

Obviosuly, if you JUST press the clutch and shift(no gas) and take A HELL OF A LONG TIME TO DO IT, the car will struggle becasue it is using a now LESSER amount of force to turn a LARGER gear....
LESSER amount of force my ass. When you downshift, you have the same amount of force available at a greater mechanical advantage.
Once you get good....

<--prides himself in perfectiong the shifts😀😀😀😀


....you can shift quickly, usally giving the car extra momentum to use before you shift, so only the extra is lost, and the flywheel is moving fast enough for the next gear up to atleast move at a normal speed.
Shifting quickly does not give a car any additional momentum
Once you perfect it, you can adapt to changing road conditions, and it doesn't pose such a problem anymore...

WHy do you think you hear manuals rev up like crazy on hills(or at least the fast drivers😀) ? WE accelerate to a point where the gear is working to a point where the next one can adaquately take over...so even on a hill, it ain't too bad...
I really have no idea what you mean by this , but I can hardly wait to hear.
I have only had my license and been driving standard shift on cars and trucks since 1961, so I really need to learn this stuff

 

[Evadman]

Originally posted by: Cyberian

You don't shift on hills usually. But you will loose speed when you shift if you do, but it is not a problem at all. The only place a stick would not work would be in either sand or mud as wheel spin is needed to keep you on top. Obviously, you will not run into these too often unless you want to.

I am not following any of this.

I have read enough of your posts to know that you know of which you speak.

How could you not shift on a hill, and how does spinning your wheels in sand or mud keep you on top of anything?

If you are going 55 in the flat land, you are going to go 55 up a hill too. ( down is another story) You just use more gas, not shift, as long as you are in the engine's powerband. You have to understand, torque is what gets you to the top of that hill. Diesels have torque right from idle, unlike a gas engine that must be "reved" to acquire it. You have heard of "ping" or "knock" in an engine right? It's bad for a gas engine ( if taken to extremes. Light detonation is when a gas engine makes most power) a diesel engine on the other had thrives on it. Pull a diesel down to 1800 rpm @ WOT and it will be happy, unlike a gas engine that can blow itself inside out. sorry went off on a tangent there.

As for sand and mud, you really have to be a 4 wheeler 🙂 But when you are driving on a loose surface you want to keep the wheels spiining, because when they are spinning, they tend to "float" to the top of what you are driving on. Wheelspin also helps keep the tread clean by tossing out the muck that gets stuck in them. A tire packed with mud might as well not have any groves at all. Be like trying to get traction with marbles for wheels. It takes longer to shift a stick, so you loose that tire speed.

EGT's = Exaust Gas Tempeature. Most engines will live at 1200 or so, but the Duramax and Cummins are not ordinary. They can both take 1400+ for short times 1300 is usually the upper limit you would want to live in. An EGT gauge should be your 1st investment if you will be towing or modifiying your diesel. If you are insane, you would use one in each header tube for each cyl so you can watch for balance between cyl's.

Goosemaster driving a manual for rock climbing is about the easiest thing you can ever do. You control your speed with the gas pedal. You put the transfer case in 4low, and put the trans in 1st. Then you just let the truck do the work. if the truck slows over an obsticle, then you give it more gas. whats called a "crawl ratio" helps to determine your vehicles off road driving ability for rocks. The higher it is numericly, the easier it will be. this is how you determine your crawl ratio. Take the entire drivetrain ratio from trans to the axle and multiply all the ratio's together. for instance lets do my truck. from engine to axle, here are my ratios: Torque converter 2:1, 1t gear 2.45:1,transfer case low: 2.72:1 rear axle :4.11:1 For a crawl ratio of 2 x 2.45 x 2.72 x 4.11 = 54.7. Not bad. crawl ratios over 100 are comon in 4 wheeling, so you crawl at 1/100 the speed of the engine. It also magnifies torque ( in a perfect world ) by the crawl ratio. So assuming my truck was stock ( which it isn't ) @ 450 ft/lbs of torgue at the engine would turn into 24,000 at the rear axle. and I wonder why I keep replacing 3rd members in my truck 🙂

 

[Goosemaster]

Sorry about the off statements. Once again, since I've learned manual I just can't get enough of it

Obviosuly, if you JUST press the clutch and shift(no gas) and take A HELL OF A LONG TIME TO DO IT, the car will struggle becasue it is using a now LESSER amount of force to turn a LARGER gear....
LESSER amount of force my ass. When you downshift, you have the same amount of force available at a greater mechanical advantage.

Sorry about the brain fart there....I meant that momentum is lost when the car has already cruised in Neutral and you are going to upshift....then the speed will decrease without more gas....and the next gear up will not be spinning fast enought to drive the car reasonably...ie. it will struggle..

Obviosuly, when You downshift, the 'mechanical advantage' will be greater..

I still don't know why I wrote that...guess I meant when driving on a level surface

Shifting quickly does not give a car any additional momentum

I guess if you are going uphill, momentum will be decreasing quicker, so shifting qucikly will just prevent a waste of energy...

I apoligize if I am confusing..but for some odd reason I refer to "taking too long" as "pressing the clutch slowly...neutral..wait..wait.....next gear..." Basically bad driving

WHy do you think you hear manuals rev up like crazy on hills(or at least the fast drivers) ? WE accelerate to a point where the gear is working to a point where the next one can adaquately take over...so even on a hill, it ain't too bad...I really have no idea what you mean by this , but I can hardly wait to hear.
I have only had my license and been driving standard shift on cars and trucks since 1961, so I really need to learn this stuff

I guess i meant that you should fear the car just rolling to a stop when changing gears....I guess I am speaking only as a novice in regards to manuals.
I used to drive a ford escort( I was WAY to tall for that car), and before that a 1990 toyota tercel(ditto), and was just making my prior concerns available so in case they had the same issues it would help.

<---Wishes to apoligize for basically confusing the hell out of everybody, including himself

😉

Goosemaster driving a manual for rock climbing is about the easiest thing you can ever do. You control your speed with the gas pedal. You put the transfer case in 4low, and put the trans in 1st. Then you just let the truck do the work. if the truck slows over an obsticle, then you give it more gas. whats called a "crawl ratio" helps to determine your vehicles off road driving ability for rocks. The higher it is numericly, the easier it will be. this is how you determine your crawl ratio. Take the entire drivetrain ratio from trans to the axle and multiply all the ratio's together. for instance lets do my truck. from engine to axle, here are my ratios: Torque converter 2:1, 1t gear 2.45:1,transfer case low: 2.72:1 rear axle :4.11:1 For a crawl ratio of 2 x 2.45 x 2.72 x 4.11 = 54.7. Not bad. crawl ratios over 100 are comon in 4 wheeling, so you crawl at 1/100 the speed of the engine. It also magnifies torque ( in a perfect world ) by the crawl ratio. So assuming my truck was stock ( which it isn't ) @ 450 ft/lbs of torgue at the engine would turn into 24,000 at the rear axle. and I wonder why I keep replacing 3rd members in my truck

Intersting.

I have only heard how horrible they were but then again, now that I think about it, the people who told me were sissies.

Unforunately, I have never used fourwheel drive, so I was just relying on the (BAD) opinions of others...


<--I prided myself on being a great driver and very calm...but my experiences with my new car have made me almost "Giddy"

😀

 

[Ultima]

What would be great is a manual with an hydraulically (or electronically) actuated clutch. You move the gear shifter and the clutch is automatically controlled by the engine computer. Even better, The engine computer does both automatically while you can still change the gear yourself if need be (and no clutch!). How damn hard can this be? I mean.. from what I've read about automatics they're a complex system of planetary gears, many clutches and bands, etc... wouldn't an automatically controlled clutch be MUCH simpler? As well as an automatically controlled gear shifter. You'd just need two electric motors, one that engages/releases the clutch and another that changes the gear.

Anyway, I think that a heavier vehicle will coast longer on the flat than a car because of momentum, and going up a hill it shouldn't slow down any more than a car because gravity pulls on mass equally. A 100000lb object will fall no faster than a 10lb object. Anyways, if the engine makes 300hp at 4000RPM it will be making that 300hp no matter if it's in 1st gear or 5th, as long as it's spinning at 4000RPM. If you hit a hill in 4th gear in the engine's powerband there's no need to downshift. If you're only going at 2000RPM or so when you have half the HP then you probably want to downshift. As long as you stay in the powerband I don't know why there should be any trouble. A good shift should take a second or less and a fast shift about half a second. If you're taking longer than two seconds you may have problems 🙂
Automatics are *easier* especially in off-road situations but if you're not going offroad and you need rugged towing power the standard will probably suit you better (especially after reading comments about autos overheating).