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2nd Amendment to the US Constitution

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DWray

Senior member
Oct 11, 1999
259
0
0
In the Ohio State Constitution, it is expressly written that all adult male citizens are members of the state militia. So no matter how you interpret it, in spirit or in word, as an adult male citizen of Ohio and member of its militia, my right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Yet, there are several federal laws that do exactly that. These are all extremely unconstitutional and should be taken out of the federal code.
 

Yossarian

Lifer
Dec 26, 2000
18,010
1
81
Originally posted by: ergeorge
I guess my issue is, how does unlicensed, unregistered private gun ownership by anybody constitude a "well regulated militia"?
Even if we use axiom's definition of a militia as "anyone with a gun that was willing to fight.", it doesn't appear to meet the requirement of "well regulated".

Private gun ownership is quite heavily regulated, at least in California where I live. Every firearm sold is registered to its owner. Even though I am a gun owner (well, still in the 10 day waiting period), I think it would be a good idea to require proof of passing a safety class of some kind before being allowed to buy a gun. The "handgun safety certificate" is a joke.

 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
21
81
Originally posted by: ergeorge
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I've always wondered how this can be construed to support private, unlicensed/regulated gun ownership?
To me it seems to protect gun ownership only in the context of "A well regulated militia".

A well regulated militia... the right of the people... Those are two seperate entities. It says the Right of the People, not the Right of the State. I believe the context of today's times have changed much since then... I believe "A well regulated militia" is referencing the local townsfolk. Usually the individual towns had a group of people that volunteered for it's defense, and a lot of people would have a shotgun, rifle, or pistol ready.
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: ergeorge
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: ergeorge
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: ergeorge
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I've always wondered how this can be construed to support private, unlicensed/regulated gun ownership?
To me it seems to protect gun ownership only in the context of "A well regulated militia".
The quotation does not say "the right of the militia to keep and bear arms", it says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms". The logic is simple: A militia is necessary. A militia is made up of largely untrained minutemen who are civilians. A militia does not provide guns for its members. Therefore members of the militia must have their own weapons. Since the members of the militia are civilians, civilians must be allowed to own weapons.

ZV

In that case, you could potentially limit gun ownership to members of a "well regulated militia"?

No, because the people are the militia.

So how does that definition satisfy the "well regulated" statement?

We live under regulations in our every day life. "Well Regulated" simply means the opposite from anarchy. It means within the law.

So given the context, that would imply that gun control regulations are legitimate, and in fact, required?
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,387
19,677
146
Originally posted by: ergeorge
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: ergeorge
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: ergeorge
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: ergeorge
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I've always wondered how this can be construed to support private, unlicensed/regulated gun ownership?
To me it seems to protect gun ownership only in the context of "A well regulated militia".
The quotation does not say "the right of the militia to keep and bear arms", it says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms". The logic is simple: A militia is necessary. A militia is made up of largely untrained minutemen who are civilians. A militia does not provide guns for its members. Therefore members of the militia must have their own weapons. Since the members of the militia are civilians, civilians must be allowed to own weapons.

ZV

In that case, you could potentially limit gun ownership to members of a "well regulated militia"?

No, because the people are the militia.

So how does that definition satisfy the "well regulated" statement?

We live under regulations in our every day life. "Well Regulated" simply means the opposite from anarchy. It means within the law.

So given the context, that would imply that gun control regulations are legitimate, and in fact, required?

No, it means that people are not allowed to kill each other at random, and have a responsibility to handle their arms with care. The law of THAT day, not any freakin' oppressive knee-jerk useless law you can think of.
 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Supposedly, in the commonwealth of VA, every male over the age of 18 is instantly part of the militia or something.

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I think that is the important part. To me, and I am not a devi- I mean lawyer, there is nothing saying someone has to be in a militia to own a weapon.

The only way to fix our current government is through revolution.
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: ergeorge
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: ergeorge
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: ergeorge
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: ergeorge
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I've always wondered how this can be construed to support private, unlicensed/regulated gun ownership?
To me it seems to protect gun ownership only in the context of "A well regulated militia".
The quotation does not say "the right of the militia to keep and bear arms", it says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms". The logic is simple: A militia is necessary. A militia is made up of largely untrained minutemen who are civilians. A militia does not provide guns for its members. Therefore members of the militia must have their own weapons. Since the members of the militia are civilians, civilians must be allowed to own weapons.

ZV

In that case, you could potentially limit gun ownership to members of a "well regulated militia"?

No, because the people are the militia.

So how does that definition satisfy the "well regulated" statement?

We live under regulations in our every day life. "Well Regulated" simply means the opposite from anarchy. It means within the law.

So given the context, that would imply that gun control regulations are legitimate, and in fact, required?

No, it means that people are not allowed to kill each other at random, and have a responsibility to handle their arms with care. The law of THAT day, not any freakin' oppressive knee-jerk useless law you can think of.


If your saying that "militia" means everybody and "well regulated" simply means, within other existing law, then why put in the statement "a well regulated militia". Why not say "A militia, being necessary to the security of a free state..."?

I think the "well regulated" part means more then that.
 

308nato

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2002
2,674
0
0

He should have used gasoline and matches. More efficient. Worked well for the korean nutcase last week. 100+ casualties I think.

The tool used isn't the problem. The TOOL using the tool is.

You could pile every firearm in the country into one massive heap and we could all picnic by it with our children daily. No safety issue at all. Until someone picked one up with the intent to do harm its just a pile of wood and metal.

 

n0cmonkey

Elite Member
Jun 10, 2001
42,936
1
0
Yes, the "bad guys" can use guns. Oooooh. Big effing deal. If we banned guns would criminals stop using them? Yeah, they will turn in their guns because they are illegal. Right. "Here is the gun I was going to use to rob the 7-11 and shoot a soccer mom, I guess I will have to figure out how to do that now without my gun!" Get real.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: 308nato

He should have used gasoline and matches. More efficient. Worked well for the korean nutcase last week. 100+ casualties I think.

The tool used isn't the problem. The TOOL using the tool is.

You could pile every firearm in the country into one massive heap and we could all picnic by it with our children daily. No safety issue at all. Until someone picked one up with the intent to do harm its just a pile of wood and metal.

Don't worry I am not anti-gun. I am pro-gun. I was just waiting for someone to start a flamewar over the article. That is what this thread was asking for.
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
0
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: 308nato

He should have used gasoline and matches. More efficient. Worked well for the korean nutcase last week. 100+ casualties I think.

The tool used isn't the problem. The TOOL using the tool is.

You could pile every firearm in the country into one massive heap and we could all picnic by it with our children daily. No safety issue at all. Until someone picked one up with the intent to do harm its just a pile of wood and metal.

Don't worry I am not anti-gun. I am pro-gun. I was just waiting for someone to start a flamewar over the article. That is what this thread was asking for.

No, that's not what this thread is asking for. This thread is a debate over the meaning/interpretation of the second amendment.
Not whether guns/gun control is good or bad. There seem to be several threads on that topic already.

Those are seperate issues.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: ergeorge
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: 308nato

He should have used gasoline and matches. More efficient. Worked well for the korean nutcase last week. 100+ casualties I think.

The tool used isn't the problem. The TOOL using the tool is.

You could pile every firearm in the country into one massive heap and we could all picnic by it with our children daily. No safety issue at all. Until someone picked one up with the intent to do harm its just a pile of wood and metal.

Don't worry I am not anti-gun. I am pro-gun. I was just waiting for someone to start a flamewar over the article. That is what this thread was asking for.

No, that's not what this thread is asking for. This thread is a debate over the meaning/interpretation of the second amendment.
Not whether guns/gun control is good or bad. There seem to be several threads on that topic already.

Those are seperate issues.

Why debate what has already been ruled on numerous times and has never changed?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: ergeorge
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I've always wondered how this can be construed to support private, unlicensed/regulated gun ownership?
To me it seems to protect gun ownership only in the context of "A well regulated militia".
You have to understand the terms as used more than 200 years ago.
well-regulated = skilled and/or trained; having a knowledge of the usage of weapons
militia = private citizens who can be called upon to fight in time of need.
Therefore, translated into today's language:
"A private citizenry skilled and knowledgable in the usage of weapons being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
That is exactly the intent that our Founding Fathers had when they drafted the 2nd Amendment.

Personally, I've always like Heinlein's adaptation: "An armed citizenry, willing to fight, is the foundation of civil freedoms."

If you don't understand these basic concepts, why an armed citizenry is important for a free society and government, I suggest you study and think about it. It has nothing to do with "crime." Only a government that fears its citizens wishes to disarm them, that is historical fact.
 

308nato

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2002
2,674
0
0
How in the hell can you seperate interpretation of the Second and the gun control issue ?

Oooops....I mean gun safety as the turds cal it now.
 

Chadder007

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
7,560
0
0
Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Originally posted by: ergeorge
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I've always wondered how this can be construed to support private, unlicensed/regulated gun ownership?
To me it seems to protect gun ownership only in the context of "A well regulated militia".

Militia = private citizens, not military. Plus, the militia part is just the preface, the point of the amendment is 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.'

Was about to say the same...
 

Armitage

Banned
Feb 23, 2001
8,086
0
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: ergeorge
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I've always wondered how this can be construed to support private, unlicensed/regulated gun ownership?
To me it seems to protect gun ownership only in the context of "A well regulated militia".
You have to understand the terms as used more than 200 years ago.
well-regulated = skilled and/or trained; having a knowledge of the usage of weapons
militia = private citizens who can be called upon to fight in time of need.
Therefore, translated into today's language:
"A private citizenry skilled and knowledgable in the usage of weapons being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
That is exactly the intent that our Founding Fathers had when they drafted the 2nd Amendment.
Any references for that interpretation?
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just get skeptical when common terms are said to have a different meaning in context, particularly when that meaning conveniently supports an agenda.

Personally, I've always like Heinlein's adaptation: "An armed citizenry, willing to fight, is the foundation of civil freedoms."

If you don't understand these basic concepts, why an armed citizenry is important for a free society and government, I suggest you study and think about it. It has nothing to do with "crime." Only a government that fears its citizens wishes to disarm them, that is historical fact.

I don't disagree that the intent of the 2nd amendment is enabling revolution if required, not crime.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
But crime comes from illegal guns. It is very rare that a legal gun is used in a crime.
 

Bulk Beef

Diamond Member
Aug 14, 2001
5,466
0
76
To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss. It would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country, to an amount which, calculating upon the present numbers of the people, would not fall far short of the whole expense of the civil establishments of all the States. To attempt a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable an extent, would be unwise: and the experiment, if made, could not succeed, because it would not long be endured.

Alexander Hamilton
Federalist No. 29
Concerning the Militia


Provided for a little context.
 

Mookow

Lifer
Apr 24, 2001
10,162
0
0
Originally posted by: zzzz
from where do I buy some icbms?

If they wanted to allow people to have crew-served weapons, it would have been "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms and ordinance...". Back in the day, arms meant the standard weapons for an infantryman.

I want my SAW (and, eventually, an OICW), d@mnit!
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,938
568
126
You have to understand the terms as used more than 200 years ago.
Actually, one need only understand a PROPER reading of the English language TODAY in order to ascertain the meaning of the Second Amendment. There is really nothing significant that has changed in the lexicon, usage, meaning, and structure of the formal English language between 1789 and 2003. IOW, if you passed junior high school, you *should* have all the tools necessary to properly interpret the text of the Second Amendment.


THE UNABRIDGED SECOND AMENDMENT (1991)
by J. Neil Schulman

If you wanted to know all about the Big Bang, you'd ring up Carl Sagan, right? And if you wanted to know about desert warfare, the man to call would be Norman Schwarzkopf, no question about it. But who would you call if you wanted the top expert on American usage, to tell you the meaning of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution ?

That was the question I asked A.C. Brocki, editorial coordinator of the Los Angeles Unified School District and formerly senior editor at Houghton Mifflin Publishers -- who himself had been recommended to me as the foremost expert on English usage in the Los Angeles school system. Mr. Brocki told me to get in touch with Roy Copperud, a retired professor of journalism at the University of Southern California and the author of "American Usage and Style: The Consensus."

A little research lent support to Brocki's opinion of Professor Copperud's expertise.

Roy Copperud was a newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades before embarking on a a distinguished 17-year career teaching journalism at USC. Since 1952, Copperud has been writing a column dealing with the professional aspects of journalism for "Editor and Publisher", a weekly magazine focusing on the journalism field.

He's on the usage panel of the American Heritage Dictionary, and Merriam Webster's Usage Dictionary frequently cites him as an expert. Copperud's fifth book on usage, "American Usage and Style: The Consensus," has been in continuous print from Van Nostrand Reinhold since 1981, and is the winner of the Association of American Publisher's Humanities Award.

That sounds like an expert to me.

After a brief telephone call to Professor Copperud in which I introduced myself but did not give him any indication of why I was interested, I sent the following letter:


"I am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in English usage, to analyze the text of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, and extract the intent from the text.

"The text of the Second Amendment is, 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

"The debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the sentence, 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State', is a restrictive clause or a subordinate clause, with respect to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence, 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'

"I would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into consideration issues of political impact or public policy, but be restricted entirely to a linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent. Further, since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation regarding the consequences of the Second Amendment, I ask that whatever analysis you make be a professional opinion that you would be willing to stand behind with your reputation, and even be willing to testify under oath to support, if necessary."

My letter framed several questions about the test of the Second Amendment, then concluded:

"I realize that I am asking you to take on a major responsibility and task with this letter. I am doing so because, as a citizen, I believe it is vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the Second Amendment. While I ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of its results, I ask that you do this because of that importance."

After several more letters and phone calls, in which we discussed terms for his doing such an analysis, but in which we never discussed either of our opinions regarding the Second Amendment, gun control, or any other political subject, Professor Copperud sent me the follow analysis (into which I have inserted my questions for the sake of clarity):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Copperud:] "The words 'A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,' contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of July 26, 1991, constitutes a present participle, rather than a clause. It is used as an adjective, modifying 'militia,' which is followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject 'the right', verb 'shall'). The to keep and bear arms is asserted as an essential for maintaining a militia.

"In reply to your numbered questions:

[Schulman:] "(1) Can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to 'a well-regulated militia'?"

[Copperud:] "(1) The sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people; it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people."

[Schulman:] "(2) Is 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms' granted by the words of the Second Amendment, or does the Second Amendment assume a preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms, and merely state that such right 'shall not be infringed'?"

[Copperud:] "(2) The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia."

[Schulman:] "(3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well regulated militia, is, in fact necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed' null and void?"

[Copperud:] "(3) No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence."

[Schulman:] "(4) Does the clause 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,' grant a right to the government to place conditions on the 'right of the people to keep and bear arms,' or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence?"

[Copperud:] "(4) The right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as previously stated. It is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia."

[Schulman:] "(5) Which of the following does the phrase 'well-regulated militia' mean: 'well-equipped', 'well-organized,' 'well-drilled,' 'well-educated,' or 'subject to regulations of a superior authority'?"

[Copperud:] "(5) The phrase means 'subject to regulations of a superior authority;' this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military."

[Schulman:] "(6) (If at all possible, I would ask you to take account the changed meanings of words, or usage, since that sentence was written 200 years ago, but not take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors, unless those issues can be clearly separated."

[Copperud:] "To the best of my knowledge, there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment. If it were written today, it might be put: "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary tot he security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged.'

[Schulman:] "As a 'scientific control' on this analysis, I would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the Second Amendment to the following sentence,

"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed.'

"My questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be,

"(1) Is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence and the way the words modify each other, identical to the Second Amendment's sentence?; and

"(2) Could this sentence be interpreted to restrict 'the right of the people to keep and read Books' _only_ to 'a well-educated electorate' -- for example, registered voters with a high-school diploma?"

[Copperud:] "(1) Your 'scientific control' sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure.

"(2) There is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of a restricted interpretation."

Professor Copperud had only one additional comment, which he placed in his cover letter: "With well-known human curiosity, I made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used, but was unable to reach any conclusion."

So now we have been told by one of the top experts on American usage what many knew all along: the Constitution of the United States unconditionally protects the people's right to keep and bear arms, forbidding all governments formed under the Constitution from abridging that right.
I've always wondered how this can be construed to support private, unlicensed/regulated gun ownership? To me it seems to protect gun ownership only in the context of "A well regulated militia".
Then why does it not say "the right of the well-regulated militia to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"??