2GB DDR2 800 PC6400 RAM

Drakelet

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Dec 19, 2007
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I need some PC6400 RAM, 2GB, but I can't decide which one. I've had soo many recommendations it's hard to choose.

A lot of people say Ballistix, but is it really worth the >£10/$20 over the others? Iyt is Micron D9, which none of the others are (as far as I'm aware)(the Patriot might be though, I'm not sure).
I've heard a lot of good about the Patriot too. The GeIL is also supposed to be good.
The Platinum is supposedly good too, but I've heard some bad things about OCZ.

They're all C4 BTW.

I'm not planning on OCing HUGELY, although I will OC it.

Crucial Ballistix...£46.00
http://www.dabs.com/productview.aspx?Quicklinx=444V

Patriot...£35.00
http://www.aria.co.uk/Products...GB%29+?productId=26802

OCZ Platinum...£35.00
http://www.dabs.com/ProductView.aspx?Quicklinx=4KZD

GeIL Black Dragon...£35.00
http://www.aria.co.uk/Products...GB%29+?productId=29674

Advice?
 

Drakelet

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Dec 19, 2007
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I was thinking about the Kingston, but I'm not sure about OCing it. I know it's just like OCing the CPU, just...I don't know really.

This is the only Kingston I can get, is it the right stuff?: (£35, same as Patriot/OCZ/GeIL)
http://www.aria.co.uk/Products...GB%29+?productId=23295

I just think...If it's the same price as the others, but with lower "recommended" latencies, surely it is better to go for the higher recommended ones (if not only for warranty purposes)?
 

SerpentRoyal

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May 20, 2007
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Originally posted by: Drakelet
I was thinking about the Kingston, but I'm not sure about OCing it. I know it's just like OCing the CPU, just...I don't know really.

This is the only Kingston I can get, is it the right stuff?: (£35, same as Patriot/OCZ/GeIL)
http://www.aria.co.uk/Products...GB%29+?productId=23295

I just think...If it's the same price as the others, but with lower "recommended" latencies, surely it is better to go for the higher recommended ones (if not only for warranty purposes)?

Yup...N5 RAM. I have several kits. Worst stick is good up to 580MHz @ 2.1V/5-5-5-18-2T or 480MHz @ 2.1V/4-4-4-12-2T. No that it's always YMMV when you overclock RAM. These N5 modules are conservatively rated. They will be able to run 1.8V/400MHz/4-4-4-12-2T.

 

Drakelet

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Dec 19, 2007
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Thanks NXIL!

The votes are very...conclusive ATM. ;)

Crucial has 2, Patriot/GeIL/OCZ/Kingston all have 1 each.
 

SerpentRoyal

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Originally posted by: Drakelet
Thanks NXIL!

The votes are very...conclusive ATM. ;)

Crucial has 2, Patriot/GeIL/OCZ/Kingston all have 1 each.

The most important variable is rated voltage. Quality RAM should run well at default speed and timing with only 1.8Vdimm (JEDEC voltage for DDR2 667 or 800 RAM). This will ensure that your rig will POST after CMOS clear.

 

Xvys

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Aug 25, 2006
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There is a reason why the Ballistix costs 30% more, but that is only $10 these days! Why fool around with other brands, hoping they have Micron D9's? You are guaranteed to get GMH's, the best chips, with the Ballistix.
 

Mr Fox

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Sep 24, 2006
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Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal


The most important variable is rated voltage. Quality RAM should run well at default speed and timing with only 1.8Vdimm (JEDEC voltage for DDR2 667 or 800 RAM). This will ensure that your rig will POST after CMOS clear.


You only have a half assed knowledge when it comes to this subject, and you continue to spout the crap....

Some IC's are designed to run at higher voltages... BY DESIGN......

Micron D-7 and certain High density D-9's

JEDEC (Joint Electron Device Engineering Council) has nothing to do with DIMM voltage specification... they Define Form Factors, IC Timings, and Testing standards......

The Manufacturer Certifies the Voltage that the DIMMS will preform to the specified speed, and timings based on JEDEC test specs.
This is usually based on Specified IC's in the Bill of Materials


Silicon is silicon.. and chips is chips.. some are better than others...by design..

There are other IC manufacturers that have started to close the performance gap... Qimonda and some others are getting better reviews. They also have developed 1.5v server memory... They also have some higher voltage IC's that approach Micron performance....

This all comes from better thermal performance







 

j0j081

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Aug 26, 2007
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the Ballistix seem to have a high failure rate so I'd go with something else like A-Data perhaps.
 

SerpentRoyal

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Originally posted by: Mr Fox
Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal


The most important variable is rated voltage. Quality RAM should run well at default speed and timing with only 1.8Vdimm (JEDEC voltage for DDR2 667 or 800 RAM). This will ensure that your rig will POST after CMOS clear.


You only have a half assed knowledge when it comes to this subject, and you continue to spout the crap....

Some IC's are designed to run at higher voltages... BY DESIGN......

Micron D-7 and certain High density D-9's

JEDEC (Joint Electron Device Engineering Council) has nothing to do with DIMM voltage specification... they Define Form Factors, IC Timings, and Testing standards......

The Manufacturer Certifies the Voltage that the DIMMS will preform to the specified speed, and timings based on JEDEC test specs.
This is usually based on Specified IC's in the Bill of Materials


Silicon is silicon.. and chips is chips.. some are better than others...by design..

There are other IC manufacturers that have started to close the performance gap... Qimonda and some others are getting better reviews. They also have developed 1.5v server memory... They also have some higher voltage IC's that approach Micron performance....

This all comes from better thermal performance


Higher voltage by design? Do you have any formal training in IC manufacturing and testing? The D9 is CAPABLE of higher voltage and higher core speed. Non-defective D9 should run well at 1.8V/400MHz/4-4-4-12 or 2.1V/500MHz/5-5-5-15.

All quality ICs will run well at low voltage and high core speed with less heat output. The goal is to produce ICs that will run at higher speed with less heat (lower voltage and current).

Intel does not manufacture regular CPU and overclocking higher voltage CPU. The trend in CPU design, of course, is lower VID with higher core speed.
 

Drakelet

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Dec 19, 2007
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Originally posted by: j0j081
the Ballistix seem to have a high failure rate so I'd go with something else like A-Data perhaps.
Never heard that before! Not doubting you BTW.
 

gingerstewart55

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Sep 12, 2007
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Originally posted by: j0j081
the Ballistix seem to have a high failure rate so I'd go with something else like A-Data perhaps.

Only because people are putting crazy voltages through them to achieve higher and higher speeds.....even Micron will tell you that running voltages higher than 2.2V for long periods will indeed burn them out, yet you see people consistently putting 2.5V and more just to get a little more speed out of them.

I've got 4 1GB strips of Ballistix running at 2.0V and have them running 24/7 and have been for around 8 months....no failures. Run very high voltages.....burn them up. Be sensible and they'll last as long as any other memory. But Micron is one of the best with RMA's....along with Corsair.


And with all the RAM I've owned in DDR2, which includes some Corsair XMS2 DDR2-800 (C4), Buffalo Firestix DDR2-800, Ballistix DDR2-800, some funky PNY DDR2-667, some Kingston HyperX DDR2-800....none have failed to boot at 1.8V on a 975 or a 965 chipset motherboard.

The only failures I've had were with the Kingston HyperX....three times one stick of a pair died....sold the forth set I got in RMA from Kingston, and will never buy Kingston ever again. Three dead sticks in a row is just too much, and these were in a motherboard that's currently populated with Ballistix which are humming along happily and without faults or problems and with longer life from them than any set of the Kingston ever had....at higher voltages to boot on the Ballistix.
 

j0j081

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Aug 26, 2007
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Originally posted by: Drakelet
Originally posted by: j0j081
the Ballistix seem to have a high failure rate so I'd go with something else like A-Data perhaps.
Never heard that before! Not doubting you BTW.

here check this thread.

http://www.hardforum.com/showt...d.php?t=981479&page=19

a lot of the posts are pretty old now but there are plenty of newer threads on that site to about ballistix going bad if you do a search. I just linked to that one because it's got the most replies.
 

SerpentRoyal

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May 20, 2007
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Originally posted by: Drakelet
Originally posted by: j0j081
the Ballistix seem to have a high failure rate so I'd go with something else like A-Data perhaps.
Never heard that before! Not doubting you BTW.


They will fail if not properly cooled. Again, these should be high quality 1.8V DDR2 800 RAM. Pumping 2.1Vdimm will elevate the working temperature.
 

Mr Fox

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Sep 24, 2006
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Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal


Higher voltage by design?

Micron D9GSV IC's and their successor is similar in Timings to the popular D9GMH chips have, which are also based on the revD die.

Mushkin is the only vendor that is Fabbing this unique IC.

http://www.virtual-hideout.net...B_HP2-6400/index.shtml

http://www.overclock3d.net/rev...c2-6400_4gb_ddr2_kit/1

The difference lies within the density, and the number of banks. This requires more voltage to attain the needed timings. This chip is can hold stock timings from 400 Mhz. thru 533 Mhz.

To make a 2GB module with 16 chips, a 1Gbit chip must be used (1Gbit = 128MB). For 1GB modules with the same number of chips, 512Mbit chips are used. D9GMH is a 512Mbit chip, arranged in 64Mx8, which means each 'cell' is 64Mbits, and there are 8 'cells' per chip. 64*8 = 512Mbit.

To increase the density of the chip, either the number of cells (width) or size of the cells can be increased, or both. If the width is increased, less chips must be used per module.
The total width of the module must be 64 or 128 for desktop memory. Using 16 chips, the 1GB and 2GB sticks in question must both use memory chips that have a width of 8.
The only remaining option to increase the density is to increase the cell size from 64Mbit to 128Mbit. As such, D9GSV is arranged in a 128Mx8 layout.

The 1Gbit chips have a trick up their sleeve though: Double the number of banks.

From Micron's technical documentation:

As with standard DDR SDRAMs, the pipelined, multibank architecture of DDR2 SDRAMs allows for concurrent Operation, thereby providing high, effective bandwidth by hiding row precharge and activation time.


In simple terms, DDR2's addressing methods allow multiple memory accesses at once, but only if they are in different banks:

A subsequent ACTIVE command to a different row in the same bank can only be issued after the previous active row has been closed (precharged). The minimum time interval between successive ACTIVE commands to the same bank is defined by tRC.

A subsequent ACTIVE command to another bank can be issued while the first bank is being accessed, which results in a reduction of total row-access overhead. The minimum time interval between successive ACTIVE commands to different banks is defined by tRRD.

DDR2 devices with 8-banks (1Gb or larger) have an additional requirement - tFAW. This requires no more than four ACTIVE commands may be issued in any given tFAW (MIN) period.

While the tFAW latency restricts the advantages, doubling the number of banks improves memory efficiency a bit. Splitting the data up into more banks increases the probability that two given sets of data are not on the same bank. Thus, a higher probability that when two access are made, the data for each are on different banks. As a result, total access time is reduced, improving latency and effective bandwidth.


Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal


The D9 is CAPABLE of higher voltage and higher core speed. Non-defective D9 should run well at 1.8V/400MHz/4-4-4-12 or 2.1V/500MHz/5-5-5-15.

All quality ICs will run well at low voltage and high core speed with less heat output. The goal is to produce ICs that will run at higher speed with less heat (lower voltage and current).
Intel does not manufacture regular CPU and overclocking higher voltage CPU. The trend in CPU design, of course, is lower VID with higher core speed.


Take a look in history at CPUs. When dual core processors were launched, they were found to be less overclockable than their single core counterparts.
There are a few reasons for this, but the primary reason is that the dual core CPUs have twice the number of transistors.
More transistors means more area, which in turn leads to a higher probability of defects that will limit clock speed.

Memory has the same exact problem, being based off very similar CMOS technology that CPUs use.
For each bit in a DRAM device, there is a transistor and a capacitor.
Every single transistor and capacitor has to be able to switch on and off, as well as drain or charge quickly, or data corruption will occur.

Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal

Do you have any formal training in IC manufacturing and testing?

Yes BS/ME/IEE at University of Michigan and 20+ years of Experience as a Project Quality Manager in Automotive, and Aerospace Electromechanical Devices.







 

SerpentRoyal

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May 20, 2007
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All that babbling and you still have not provided a concrete answer to the voltage question. Quality ICs will run at lower voltage and higher clock speed. Look at the evolution from DDR to DDR2 to DDR3. Better fab = lower working voltage and higher working core speed.
 

Mr Fox

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Sep 24, 2006
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Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
All that babbling and you still have not provided a concrete answer to the voltage question. Quality ICs will run at lower voltage and higher clock speed. Look at the evolution from DDR to DDR2 to DDR3. Better fab = lower working voltage and higher working core speed.



It is innovative design that throws a Wrench in your Paradigm.
Quality IC's are now also capable of running at higher voltages.

To achieve superior timings and bandwidth at higher voltages because of improvements in Electron Leakage, and Thermal Impedance Characteristics....

Tell me of any other 1Gbit DRAM IC that can deliver anywhere even near that Operating range, and CAS in a high density DIMM ... Good Luck !!






 

Drakelet

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Dec 19, 2007
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If only I understood MyFox or SerpantRoyal's argument! :p

Ballistix is now winning 7-1-1-1-3. Which of the middle three do you think would be best, or is it just whatever I feel like? (Admittedly I'm probably going to buy Ballistix).

What I don't understand is WHY Ballistix is so good? Surely they can all be overclocked to 2.1v/4-4-4-12 or whatever, so what#s the difference?
 

SerpentRoyal

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May 20, 2007
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Originally posted by: Mr Fox
Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
All that babbling and you still have not provided a concrete answer to the voltage question. Quality ICs will run at lower voltage and higher clock speed. Look at the evolution from DDR to DDR2 to DDR3. Better fab = lower working voltage and higher working core speed.



It is innovative design that throws a Wrench in your Paradigm.
Quality IC's are now also capable of running at higher voltages.

To achieve superior timings and bandwidth at higher voltages because of improvements in Electron Leakage, and Thermal Impedance Characteristics....

Tell me of any other 1Gbit DRAM IC that can deliver anywhere even near that Operating range, and CAS in a high density DIMM ... Good Luck !!

V=IR. P=I2R. High voltage DDR2 RAM generates more heat. Why add more heat to achieve the same level of overclock as quality 1.8V DDR2 800 RAM?

Superior 1.8V DDR2 800 RAM should be able to run well @ 2.1V/470MHz/4-4-4-12 or 2.1V/570MHz/5-5-5-15.

How many high voltage DDR2 modules are rated @ 4-4-4-12 or tighter timing north of 570MHz?

The higher voltage IC is a marketing scam. If there is a true improvement in performance, then the memory should be rated at 1.8V/+533MHz/4-4-4-12 timing.
 

Mr Fox

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Sep 24, 2006
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Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
Originally posted by: Mr Fox
Originally posted by: SerpentRoyal
All that babbling and you still have not provided a concrete answer to the voltage question. Quality ICs will run at lower voltage and higher clock speed. Look at the evolution from DDR to DDR2 to DDR3. Better fab = lower working voltage and higher working core speed.



It is innovative design that throws a Wrench in your Paradigm.
Quality IC's are now also capable of running at higher voltages.

To achieve superior timings and bandwidth at higher voltages because of improvements in Electron Leakage, and Thermal Impedance Characteristics....

Tell me of any other 1Gbit DRAM IC that can deliver anywhere even near that Operating range, and CAS in a high density DIMM ... Good Luck !!

V=IR. P=I2R. High voltage DDR2 RAM generates more heat. Why add more heat to achieve the same level of overclock as quality 1.8V DDR2 800 RAM?

Superior 1.8V DDR2 800 RAM should be able to run well @ 2.1V/470MHz/4-4-4-12 or 2.1V/570MHz/5-5-5-15.

How many high voltage DDR2 modules are rated @ 4-4-4-12 or tighter timing north of 570MHz?

The higher voltage IC is a marketing scam. If there is a true improvement in performance, then the memory should be rated at 1.8V/+533MHz/4-4-4-12 timing.



You are not getting anywhere with this....... your information only applies to the older 512Mbit chips. D9GHV etc...

Micron has made a break thru that has been held fairly close to the vest .
Thru materials technology they(Micron) have increased the ability to withstand higher voltages without overheating from electron leakage. While using the same die.

These chips exist..I have proved that... but good luck finding them in Micron's IC catalog...

My set will run 550 mhz.. at 2.25v and only be slightly warm to the touch no special forced air cooling. stock timings set manually in the BIOS... 512Mbit chips would be smoking...

Wake up, and wise up technology moves on...









 

Drakelet

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Dec 19, 2007
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Please, lets stop this bickering/heated discussion. ;)

I still don't understand why Ballistix is better than the others.