2d Amendment thread

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: TGS

Originally posted by: Worlocked

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Worlocked
Best case? What, are you going to tell the likes of Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, George Mason, Tenche Coxe, Zacharia Johnson, Albert Gallatin, and other founders they were wrong?

That's not an argument, that's a case closer.

I would tell them they were wrong. The Proof is in the Murder rate. What that's the Best Case for, just to clarify, is the intention of the Amendment.

That's not proof. Israel and Switzerland have some of the highest per capita rates of gun ownership on earth and near the lowest per capita rates of murder.
OTOH, Mexico, Brazil, and Russia have some of the strictest gun control laws on earth and near the highest per capita murder rates -- all more that double the US (Russia's murder rate is more than 4 times that of the US, despite a complete prohibition of private handgun ownership).

Proof? You were saying?...

What happens elsewhere is moot. If Gun Ownership lead to an Orderly and Peaceful society automagically, why are US Gun Violence rates so high? Gun Control/a Gun in every hand doesn't lead to any foregone conclusion, but the benefit of either varies from Society to Society and Place to Place.

The error of the FF in this case was to miss the possibility of a negative result of such Gun Proliferation in Society. Their idea's and arguements defending their position were sound, but time has not born out either the benefits or the Need that they envisioned.

Re some of the Nations you mentioned:

1) Switzerland doesn't have the Individualism that the US has. Every Able Bodied Citizen may have Military Equipment in their homes, but they also belong to a greater organization, a Well Regulated Militia if youu will. This varies greatly from the US situation where there's little to no similar organization, just the Right for Individuals to own Weapons.

2) Can't comment much on Israel, but from what I've seen they are structured very close to the Swiss model.

3) Mexico/Brazil/Russia are all Societies with serious problems that go way beyond Gun Control/Gun Ownership. None of those 3 even come close to comparable to the US, why not use more comparable Nations for comparison?

Hell, if we're going to just pull names for effect, I submit Iraq, Afghanistan, and Somalia as reasons why Gun Proliferation is just a bad idea! 😉

Does the US need Gun Control? I don't think it's necessarily the only solution, but what is not the solution is to just yell "Gun Rights!" then go home as if nothing happened. Perhaps the US needs to adopt the Swiss model where Organnization and Obligation goes hand in hand with Gun Ownership? The status quo doesn't work too well at any rate, completely removing Gun Control from the table seems stupid, especially if no alternatives are proffered(sp).

I'm sorry, maybe you have no respect fo inalienable rights and what our forefathers fought and died to protect, but I and many others do. I'd make a longer post but I'm really irate right now at your post, I'll return to this thread later, but I will leave you with this quote;

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-Benjamin Franklin

This society was built around freedom and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY you punish the criminal for the crime, not society. Toughen gun crime penalties, and I mean real gun crimes; violence, brandishing, etc.... not stupid victimless "crimes" like owning a supressor without a tax stamp and other such bulls**t. Don't take away the INALIENABLE RIGHT of the honest citizen for the actions of CRIMINALS.

You do realize he is canadian?

Eh? What are you talking aboot? 😉

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Hafen

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: sandorski
You stated it, then went beyond it. It was for a Militia. Your explanation beyond that goes beyond what was written.

militia
n.

1. An army composed of ordinary citizens rather than professional soldiers.
2. A military force that is not part of a regular army and is subject to call for service in an emergency.
3. The whole body of physically fit civilians eligible by law for military service.

It was for everyone. The intent was a gun in every household.

So what exactly are you advocating? The Army be disbanded and just allow people to buy RPGs and m60's at the local Ammunation?

Aside from the huge jump in healthcare expenses due to gunshot wounds and increased police spending, this plan could save taxpayers a $trillion a year. Whoo hoo! $$$$$$$

Are you the inventor of the "Jump to Conclusions!" board game?