$250 video card upgrade.. what to get?

[cmdrdredd]

In general, I agree...either a card wins apples-to-apples or it doesn't, and with MSAA, AMD fails badly, but...



This. MSAA just isn't necessary in BF3 for a clean image at 1920. At either high or ultra settings, the graphics are just stunning.



Be careful. You're probably hitting the VRAM limit, and SLI won't help you with that. I just jumped to HD5850 crossfire, and I use 930MB per card in high, 950MB per card in ultra/no MSAA, and blow the memory limit at ultra/MSAA, all at 1920.

But scaling is otherwise fantastic:
(1) Single HD5850@850/1200, multiplayer, high, 1920: 43fps
(2) Dual HD5850@850/1200, multiplayer, high, 1920: 80fps (I actually run this with vsync while gaming - so I get a constant 60fps).

Yeah the VRAM limit is what hurts, but 2GB cards probably won't see the limits if someone were going for 2GB cards. AA is fine with AMD cards in every game except the way Battlefield 3 does MSAA. It eats up the FPS like nobody's business. Even on a GTX 580. It was noted on many sites that even the 580 should turn off MSAA to keep a more consistent frame rate and only CFX/SLI systems can really take advantage of the MSAA options without some situations becoming unplayable at 1920x1080 and higher.

There's a lot of newer titles, specifically DX11 titles like Lost Planet 2, Metro 2033, Crysis 2 (with DX11 patch and textures) that even a GTX 580 can barely keep 60fps averages when you turn settings up and add on the AA. While that might be alright for some people. I would think that the minimum FPS you experience would be quite low at some points. Not unplayable, but low enough that you notice. It depends on the title though as some games don't rely on twitch gameplay and the FPS isn't going to be as integral.

As always the best thing to do is evaluate the games you're interested in and then look at the cards in your budget and see which card would offer the performance you're after for the price you're willing to pay.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Yeah, the memory usage is 100% in the 560 ti - 1008MB. Good to know SLI won't help, I guess I'll have to try upgrade at xmas.

I was actually debating that myself, if the memory is limiting fps, or if it's just programmed in such a way to use all available memory.

Way to test it is have someone check the usage on a 2GB card. Does it max out?

 

[TemjinGold]

You're assuming it can't use MORE than 2GB...

 

[Fear No Evil]

Thanks for the good discussion. Still not 100% sure of which direction I will go but I think the 6950 and the GTX 560 Ti are the choices are this point for my budget. As I said I am coming from a GTX 275 overclocked with 768mb.. Upgraded the rest of my system but kept the video card, so now its time to bring up the video to match the rest of the system.

I like the advice of waiting a couple weeks until the deals start coming, so it might just come down to which card goes on sale at the right time.

 

[spinejam]

For BF3: gtx570 or 6950 unlocked / 6970 would be my suggestion.

 

[cmdrdredd]

You're assuming it can't use MORE than 2GB...

No, I simply don't know and there is only one way to test it. Someone with a 2GB card see if it maxes out. Maybe a 3GB card?

 

[Silverforce11]

MSAA is NOT standard in deferred render games. It's a "bonus" use it if you want to cripple your perf for very little gain and actually a slight texture quality loss.

If you have a DX11 card, use MLAA or FXAA post AA for these games. Offers great AA for very little perf loss.

As to why AMD cards perform worse with MSAA in these type of games, its prolly a bottleneck in the setup in the architecture, it doesn't deal with extremes well. Should it? Well atm, the only big game that has this offer is BF3, and in BF3, its worse to have MSAA on. You decide.

 

[happy medium]

I want to give everyone a news flash about BF3....................

My gtx 460 @ 930 core does not run out of memory @ 1080p ultra settings, it runs out of gpu power in MP but not SP.

The best card @ 1900x1080 High settings is the 120$ AR gtx460 Hawk overclocked or gtx560ti, same performance.

If you want ultra settings @ 1080p the 289$ gtx570 is your best and lowest priced option, a 6950 WILL not cut it.( and news flash a 6970 won't either). and a gtx560ti overclocked will outdo a 6970 and not run out of memory at 1080p.

Please show me 2 benchmarks where I'm wrong. A 6970 or 6950 at 1080p ultra setting 4xaa will not cut it in MP!

 

[Silverforce11]

http://www.techspot.com/review/458-battlefield-3-performance/page5.html

^^ 6950 beats gtx560 ti handily, dont even bother with gtx460. It can also OC like clappers.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2011/10/25/battlefield_3_preview_performance/1

^^ How about ULTRA w/ FXAA high but no MSAA (you realize by now MSAA is shit for this game, right?). A 6950 can run at 6970 speed or faster.

And if you want cheap deals for great perf/$$, how about a 5850 OC to 5870 speed (or even +15% on top of 5870)? Look at that card go!!

 

[lehtv]

The best card @ 1900x1080 High settings is the 120$ AR gtx460 Hawk overclocked or gtx560ti, same performance.

Please show me 2 benchmarks where I'm wrong

Right there in post #14, maybe you didn't notice my reply to you. Two benchies at high settings, both show 6950 performing ~10fps better than 560 Ti. 6950 1GB is ~210-220, 6950 2GB can be had for around 250, sometimes even as low as 230AR.

A 6950 can run at 6970 speed or faster.

But 560 Ti can run at near GTX 570 speed. Once properly OC'd though 6950 still wins (6950->6970 is 80MHz OC, while 560 Ti -> 570 speed requires a 180MHz OC; and 6970 is as fast as 570 on high settings).

 

[happy medium]

That's ridiculous, 4xAA at any resolution is the standard

only when AMD wins when its not turned on is it not the standard......look at the ridiculous posts above!

Fact is BF3 runs better on Nvidia cards ,plain and simple.

 

[Silverforce11]

only when AMD wins when its not turned on is it not the standard......look at the ridiculous posts above!

Fact is BF3 runs better on Nvidia cards ,plain and simple.

Are you that ignorant?

MSAA is fine for every other game except deferred shading ones. They added DX11 MLAA and FXAA (NV worked to add FXAA into frostbite 2 specifically because MSAA cuts performance) for you to use.

You can ramble on but to ignore these basic facts makes your opinion worthless if you don't even acknowledge that BF3 performs worse for no visual gains and textures even looks worse with MSAA.

 

[happy medium]

Are you that ignorant?

ignorant?

Quote from the review.....................

"In short, AMD users should avoid using the MSAA setting unless they have a top notch Crossfire setup. On the other hand, owners of GeForce GTX 580 and GTX 570 graphics cards can afford to enable MSAA at resolutions up to 1920x1200. It's a small visual compromise, as I personally find the MSAA setting to add a certain degree of polish but not nearly enough to justify the big performance drop in AMD boards. You'll be happy to live without it. "

Seems AMD has the problem ha? AMD users should not turn it on because there cards can not handle it, NOT because it does not look better

Small compromise ?yes, better quality YES!

Give me a 200$ gtx560ti and I'll overclock that sucker to where the overclocked 240$ 6950 2gb can touch it in BF3 and a stock 320$ 6970 will lose also.
A gtx570- for 290$ is the bestcard for BF3 @ 1080p ultra settings., period end of story.
A 6950 cant run it nor can a 6970 unless you lower the image quality.

Oh yea wheres the memory limitation for 1gb cards?
Another bogus theory @ 1080p, 1gb is fine.

 

[Silverforce11]

A certain degree of polish... yeah, it blurs out textures.

Quote for you: "For now, know this, the game supports two types of antialiasing, traditional MSAA and shader based FXAA. For the best performance and image quality, use "Antialiasing Post" which is FXAA in-game."

MSAA does not function well in deferred shading games, it removes fewer jaggies while washing out textures.

Let's leave it to users to decide, if they want unplayable fps on single GPUs at 1080p, they can enable MSAA just for the sake of having it on. Otherwise, they can enjoy everything on ULTRA and post AA on high and have better IQ and perf.

 

[happy medium]

A certain degree of polish

ok, well at least you admit it.

Better image quality and faster fps = Nvidia.

Thank you.

Compromise image quality = AMD..end of story.

 

[Silverforce11]

http://forum.ea.com/eaforum/posts/list/7684132.page#17916386

^^ gamers can't tell the difference with MSAA except for the huge fps drop.

polish = blurs textures.

only amateurs thinks MSAA is better for BF3, do you even play the game? you can keep trolling, i'm having fun.

 

[happy medium]

gamers can't tell the difference

but reviewers can!

polish = blurs textures.

says the AMD boys because they cant use it ,not the reviews.

 

[Silverforce11]

selective in your bias?

Reviewer quote for you: "For now, know this, the game supports two types of antialiasing, traditional MSAA and shader based FXAA. For the best performance and image quality, use "Antialiasing Post" which is FXAA in-game."

 

[happy medium]

uh oh my gtx 460 Hawk overclocked to 890 core can run BF3 @ 1080p high quality, fxaa for 120$ AR, no slowdowns.

Can I get a best bang for the buck now?

Lets compromise image quality together.

You should let the OP know.

 

[Silverforce11]

uh oh my gtx 460 Hawk overclocked to 890 core can run BF3 @ 1080p high quality, fxaa for 120$ AR, no slowdowns.

Can I get a best bang for the buck now?

Lets compromise image quality together.

Why not run it on ULTRA without MSAA. Should be fine too, no slowdowns.

 

[lehtv]

My own experience with BF3 beta is that post-AA makes the textures look blurry, while MSAA keeps the textures sharp while smoothing the jaggies, just like I'd expect MSAA to work. Given the texture blurring caused by post-AA I'd much rather play without any AA than with post-AA. It's true though that the performance hit from 4xAA is a bit too much. 2xAA is a good sweet spot.

 

[happy medium]

Rig: C2Q 9400 @ 3.6Ghz, OCZ V2 SSD, 5850s @ 950/1200, Silverstone OP750

Do you have a 1080p monitor?

Care to share your thoughts on memory limitations in BF3? You are one of the guys suggesting that 1gb is not enough @ 1080p ultra right?

I'll be happy to overclock my gtx460 to 950 core ( with a little more voltage) and compare your 5850 benchmarks to mine. In fact, I can do 970 core if you like, with a modded bios I'll do some at 1000 core @ 1.2v also. Hot as sh!t though.

 

[Termie]

...

Oh yea wheres the memory limitation for 1gb cards?
Another bogus theory @ 1080p, 1gb is fine.

Happy - what memory use are you measuring at 1080p/ultra?

I'm over 1GB, and I get a big penalty for that. But it could be because I'm at 1920x1200, not 1920x1080p. That's 10% more pixels, so it makes sense that it would use 10% more memory. I use 930MB at high, 950-970MB on ultra w/o msaa. I actually can run ultra with MSAA, but I get out of memory crashes.

 

[happy medium]

Happy - what memory use are you measuring at 1080p/ultra?

It uses every bit bro. 980mb @1080p ultra 4xmsaa.


No crashes yet, dont jinks me.

 

[lehtv]

~1015mb out of 1024mb at high settings 4xAA with my 560 Ti, IIRC