22 year old ex-convict empties AK-47 into 12 year old

[TallBill]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
So what is the legitimate reason for owning a full auto assault weapon?

The majority of gun crimes in america are committed with $100 piece-of-shit handguns that get tossed.

 

[dawp]

Originally posted by: Brian48

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
So what is the legitimate reason for owning a full auto assault weapon?

Normal citizens cannot get them. Military, law enforcement, and class 3 licensee (usually security firms) are the only people allowed to possess full auto firearms. I'd say that's pretty darn legitimate.

That not entirely true. From what I understand, an older, antique pre-existing full auto weapon can be had legally, such as a Thompson sub machine gun or a German MP40. you just have to jump threw so many hoops and the expense is prohibitive.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The Princeof Wands does know all that much about firearms if he says " the weapon is irrelevant because absolutely any semi-auto could do basically the same thing, and any shotgun would have had the same end result, and probably any old style revolver for that matter. "

Which is basically incorrect in most cases. Depending on the construction of the walls and doors, a shot gun would have lost most of its energy punching a hole through the walls and doors, revolver bullets are are made of soft lead, would have greatly expanded in diameter in the process of penetration of walls or doors, and even large magnum pistols contain only a fraction of the energy packed by a AK-47 bullet. Certain non assault rifle legitimate hunting high powered rifles can develop more muzzle energy, but they are usually only loaded with expanding type bullets, are usually bolt action, and have magazines seldom containing more than five rounds.

And due to the wonders of military surplus, there are ready supplies of non expanding military ammunition in case lots of a 1000 that can go through walls and doors without losing much energy. In short, this AK-47 was not your typical firearm, it was ideally suited for what happened here, its worthless and illegal as a hunting rifle, but almost an accident waiting to happen when placed in the hands of a nut. This entire incident is a compelling reason to ban ALL weapons of that type. They belong in military arsenals under lock and key, not in the hands of the general public. Even if the owner is "responsible", too often the responsible owner gets robbed and they wind up in the hands of criminals.

Yes, a 7.62 has more mass and energy than a 410 or .32, but it doesn't take much of either to punch through a standard front door. Any rifle is going to have superior penetration to a pistol, the fact that it was a big bad ak is completely irrelevant. He didn't need 30 rounds to kill the kid...1 would have done it. 6 and he'd have had a good chance at injuring those beyond the kid as well, so capacity is largely irrelevant as well.

What I'm saying is that ANY firearm in that guys hands and that kid was going to die. The kid is dead because the man is an idiot and a criminal, not because he owned a specific type or class of weapon. This is proven by looking at the scope of gun crime in America where basically none of it is committed with similar weapons. Furthermore we know that even when banned criminals and idiots are still going to get them, so again the point is moot.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
This isn't about banning guns so much as it is doing SOMETHING to keep guns away from ABSOLUTE FUCKIN MORONS.

Really, can you be against banning morons from having guns? Somebody's kid is dead because AN ABSOLUTE MORON was allowed to have a gun.

Bans do nothing. You can't keep things away from people. Look at underage drinking, or drugs. Look at drinking during prohibition. Banning has never stopped anything.

He was PROBABLY already banned from having that gun on one or more levels (ex-felon, possibly a class 3 weapon, etc). ANYONE can ALWAYS get a gun if they want one, no matter the law.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
This isn't about banning guns so much as it is doing SOMETHING to keep guns away from ABSOLUTE FUCKIN MORONS.

Really, can you be against banning morons from having guns? Somebody's kid is dead because AN ABSOLUTE MORON was allowed to have a gun.

So, is it a case of stronger gun laws or developing some means to reduce the number of illegal guns?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, this is not about banning all guns, this is about banning one particular type gun that is legitimately useless, but makes crimes of this nature into crimes of this nature on steroids. If the nut in question used any other type of firearm, the probability of this resulting in a single death would have been greatly lower. Worse yet, if the nut in question would have tried to flee, he could have been in a position of rapid fire endangering everyone in a mile or better radius. And able to fire perhaps another thousand rounds or better before he was subdued, outgunning the police in the process.

A shotgun or a pistol would reduce that effective kill radius to no more than a hundred yards, and while even a legitimate hunting high power rifle would preserve the effective danger radius, it would not be able to match the assault rifles rate of fire, magazine size, and few would be able to afford the buy enough ammunition in those large lot sizes.

As a legitimate firearms owner and a hunter, I do know a thing or two about firearms. I would never ever consider wasting a penny on the purchase of an assault weapon, and I think the NRA is my greatest enemy in terms of preserving my rights to own firearms. I despise the NRA as the lobbying monstrosity they have become, as far as I am concerned, champions of criminals, thugs, the criminally insane, as they spread a message of uncompromising paranoia. The NRA has long gone past being anything but the problem.

Almost no crime is ever committed with weapons like this in America.

The maximum range for an AK is about 800meters, not a mile or better. Yeah, you could get a random arc to increase it, but then you reduce the threat as well.

This isn't pre LA shootout, he wouldn't have anyone outgunned.

1000 rounds would require 34 magazines, weighing about 99 pounds and requiring a very large bag to carry. Let's not even get into reload times.

There is NOTHING about this event that was unique to the weapon type. Made easier, possibly, but any gun could have done the same.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: between

Originally posted by: venkman
It's FREAKIN' HALLOWEEN and he is SURPRISED by a knock on his DOOR? Is he pants on head retarded?

Maybe he was just really paranoid or mentally ill, as another poster has suggested

If he genuinely believed he was under attack, then his behaviour almost makes sense. he was defending himself.

Of course, if he only had a knife instead of a gun, he would have had to open the door and would have seen it was only a kid. the problem lies mostly with the easy availability of guns in America.

I can't help but compare this situation to that Texan nutcase who shot the burglar (of his neighbour's house) in the back. That guy wasn't even charged with manslaughter let alone murder... many people here seemed to be happy with that outcome. But let's be honest, what's more heinous - shooting someone in the back (!), or shooting through a door because you are paranoid and think you are being attacked?

Shooting a criminal doesn't bother me a bit, shooting an innocent does. There was EVERY reason to believe the pieces of crap in the Texas case needed to be shot, there was NO reason to believe the trick-or-treater needed to be shot.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Zenervolt notes, " The AK-47 is not "worthless and illegal as a hunting rifle", as there are many widely-available loadings for its calibre with expanding bullets that are legal for hunting. In fact, a person can easily buy non-expanding bullets for other much more powerful cartridges such as the 30-30, the .308 Winchester, and the .30-06."

What we have here is a pretty short list of readily available hunting cartridges, but why the hell Zemervolt comes up with the 30-30 is a total mystery to me. The .308 Winchester is simply the commercial version of the standard US past round generation military round, which in turn replaced the 30-06 which was our standard military ordinance in WW1 and two. the main reason the 30-06 was replaced by the .308 Winchester was the fact the 30-06 is too long to be ideal for use in automatic weapons. As for the 30-30, its never been a standard military cartridge, so no ready supply of military surplus cheap ammunition exists. And while a hand loader can load bullets of any type into any round cartridge on the planet, I dare say I could purchase even armor piercing bullets military surplus dirt cheap for that AK-47 I would not buy or own.

Its the ready supply of very cheap ammunition, the high rate of fire, the large magazines, that make these idiot weapons of choice. Our current Ar-15 .223 cartridge is also a danger, they certainly lack the penetrating power of a 30-06, but they were the weapon of choice of the DC snipers. Easily lethal and accurate at 300 yards. But not very good at penetrating walls and doors. And absolutely illegal to use on even deer sized animals in almost all 50 States in the union.

Get a clue, these people are seldom firearms knowledgeable people, but when too much cheap ammunition meets available megafire power idiots , too many accidents are inevitable. Ban all assault weapons with magazine capacities over 5, criminalize the sale or manufacture or any larger magazine capacity, and restrict purchases of large lots of military surplus ammo, and the world will be in a better place.

As it is, I as blood thirsty hunter, I only want to assassinate Bambi, kill pheasants and Quail, and fair play, give Dan Quail a head start.

Would you please list for me the number of crimes committed with weapons fitting your description of what should be banned, and the total percentage of crime they represent.

I'll save you trouble, it's under 1%.

In other words, if you had a magic button that could instantly remove assault weapons from existence, you would have the potential to drop crime a whopping .20%. Gee thanks for that. In the end you wouldn't even do that since they'd just substitute another weapon.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Brian48

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
So what is the legitimate reason for owning a full auto assault weapon?

Normal citizens cannot get them. Military, law enforcement, and class 3 licensee (usually security firms) are the only people allowed to possess full auto firearms. I'd say that's pretty darn legitimate.

Many normal citizens do get their FFL's. That's why the various machine gun shoots are so popular. A number of states allow them and so they are restricted only by federal law.

 

[zoiks]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
This is why guns should be banned.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Engineer

I don't know why anyone (other than military or certain police) needs fully automatic weapons.

Too protect yourself against burglars who ring the doorbell you silly!!!

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Engineer

I don't know why anyone (other than military or certain police) needs fully automatic weapons.

Too protect yourself against burglars who ring the doorbell you silly!!!

Has it been established this nut had a full-automatic?

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Engineer

I don't know why anyone (other than military or certain police) needs fully automatic weapons.

Too protect yourself against burglars who ring the doorbell you silly!!!

Has it been established this nut had a full-automatic?

Not that I can find. I've checked out about 50 blurbs and news articles on it, but none have confirmed the exact weapon type.

 

[Thump553]

Reading between the lines, it sounds to me like this clown was doing a drug deal on Halloween night and freaked out with the knock on the door. I doubt he meant to shoot a kid, but don't doubt that he meant to shoot the cops or someone coming to rob the deal. I base my guess (and that's all it is) on the woman running away with $7500 cash. "I thought it was a robbery" is just a lame BS excuse.

It's an unfortunate aspect of American life that the easy availability of guns makes such tragedies all too common. Something to think about by all you who constantly insist on everyone's rights to bear as many and as powerful weapons as they want.

I hope maximum sentences are imposed for all involved after fair trial.

 

[seemingly random]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
No, just why most felons should be killed.

In Larry Niven's SF stories felons have their organs harvested so something good can be done with their wasted lives. We just need to solve tissue rejection problems and find cures for the felons' STDs (AIDS, hepatitus) and we can start up the program.

Another Larry Niven fan. The Ringworld series was fun, but most of his other books are awesome as well...

Niven has a great imagination and an easy style. His books with pournelle are pretty good also.

---

More research needs to be conducted on whether any organs of an anti-social person will pollute those who are not.

 

[badnewcastle]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
This is why guns should be banned.

hmm... I'm pretty sure the AK-47 is banned. Helped a lot in this case. :disgust:

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: badnewcastle

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
This is why guns should be banned.

hmm... I'm pretty sure the AK-47 is banned. Helped a lot in this case. :disgust:

So are 30 round clips.

 

[Thump553]

Originally posted by: badnewcastle

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
This is why guns should be banned.

hmm... I'm pretty sure the AK-47 is banned. Helped a lot in this case. :disgust:

Didn't the assault rifle ban expire a half dozen years ago or so?

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Thump553
Reading between the lines, it sounds to me like this clown was doing a drug deal on Halloween night and freaked out with the knock on the door. I doubt he meant to shoot a kid, but don't doubt that he meant to shoot the cops or someone coming to rob the deal. I base my guess (and that's all it is) on the woman running away with $7500 cash. "I thought it was a robbery" is just a lame BS excuse.

It's an unfortunate aspect of American life that the easy availability of guns makes such tragedies all too common. Something to think about by all you who constantly insist on everyone's rights to bear as many and as powerful weapons as they want.

I hope maximum sentences are imposed for all involved after fair trial.

I do think about it, and I balance it against he times that armed citizens save a life.

I personally don't believe in abortion, but I fully support a persons right to choose to have one.

And I agree with you about this most likely having something to do with a recently transacted drug deal, so yeah, fry them to the max.

 

[Craig234]

Gun laws are no guarantee against this happening; executing more people is no guarantee against this happening; but those responses draw attention like flames draw moths, while few are willing to look at the less interesting, more complex question of how to reduce crime as social problem - poverty, drugs, education, work resources, and so on. I think that's an important area for reducing tragedies like this.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Gun laws are no guarantee against this happening; executing more people is no guarantee against this happening; but those responses draw attention like flames draw moths, while few are willing to look at the less interesting, more complex question of how to reduce crime as social problem - poverty, drugs, education, work resources, and so on. I think that's an important area for reducing tragedies like this.

Why you gotta bring logic and pragmatism into our heated flame-fest???!!

 

[GeezerMan]

Golly gee , why don't we keep the repeat offenders in jail since they do most of the crime?Either that, or put the guns in jail.

 

[Lemon law]

I doubt the weapon used was fully automatic, but as it was, the guy was shooting blind, so any hit was blind luck. And in a matter of perhaps 15 to 30 seconds, he managed to get off 29 or 30 shots. Arguments against large magazines might be somewhat moot if the 12 year old died during the first five shots, but we must also note that another two people were injured, either by a direct hit by the other bullets, or possibly by splinters of wood. As it is, we do not know what the end fate of all those 29-30 rounds, because once out in the air, they could impact houses and other human beings.

Its pretty clear the shooter was going to keep firing until the magazine went empty, all thoughts missing in action, until. The larger the magazine size, the greater the danger.

 

[seemingly random]

Proportional to population growth, individual incidents are going to increase. And, with the media constantly looking for shock and awe pieces, these more frequently occurring incidents will be broadcast far and wide. The solution is to stop growing the population. Gun restriction discussion is just subterfuge.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: mugs
You don't need a reason to grant a right, you need a reason to take a right away.

Just posting here to say +1 to this.

The government isn't here to grant us rights. The rights are ours to begin with until the government finds a way to take them away.

That said, I think we should execute this guy because he's obviously of no use to society whatsoever.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: seemingly random
Proportional to population growth, individual incidents are going to increase. And, with the media constantly looking for shock and awe pieces, these more frequently occurring incidents will be broadcast far and wide. The solution is to stop growing the population. Gun restriction discussion is just subterfuge.

Good post. I would further point out that despite this simple fact violence in America has been DECREASING, despite increase in firearms, and increases in population.