2017's winner for "I'm Not Racist but..."?

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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Is it? How many of the disadvantaged freely classify the "white devil" without any flexibility? Perhaps you argue that this is similarly racist or that different rules apply when someone is disadvantaged. I actually agree with both arguments, to an extent. But my point is that, even if an unobjectionable racist line has been crossed, it doesn't necessarily invalidate someone's position entirely.

Well, I do entirely subscribe to the 'liberal left orthodoxy' that it's not symmetrical, that real racism requires power. But I worked that out for myself before I'd ever heard the argument expressed in a PC theoretical way - it occurred to me as a child that I didn't find terms like 'honkey' or anti-white comments anything like as upsetting as black kids did things like the n-word, and I realised it was because it had no real threat or power behind it and no history of real hurt. Of course that was even more clear in a country where white people were something like 95% of the population and that had previously been top dog in an Empire. It might not always be the case in all times and places.

I sort-of agree in that on casual listen the guy on the phone-in didn't sound like the most heinous type of racist. More confused-UKIP than irredemable-BNP.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Well, I do entirely subscribe to the 'liberal left orthodoxy' that it's not symmetrical, that real racism requires power. But I worked that out for myself before I'd ever heard the argument expressed in a PC theoretical way - it occurred to me as a child that I didn't find terms like 'honkey' or anti-white comments anything like as upsetting as black kids did things like the n-word, and I realised it was because it had no real threat or power behind it and no history of real hurt. Of course that was even more clear in a country where white people were something like 95% of the population and that had previously been top dog in an Empire. It might not always be the case in all times and places.

Perhaps you might find it valuable to reexamine these beliefs somewhat. I hardly believe there is anyone who has no power whatsoever. And if you take that argument to an extreme, you would be saying to an oppressed person: "it is OK for you to think I am bad simply because of the color of my skin and even say hateful things to and about me because I have power and you have none." I think I'd be infuriated if I were on the other side of that message.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Perhaps you might find it valuable to reexamine these beliefs somewhat. I hardly believe there is anyone who has no power whatsoever. And if you take that argument to an extreme, you would be saying to an oppressed person: "it is OK for you to think I am bad simply because of the color of my skin and even say hateful things to and about me because I have power and you have none." I think I'd be infuriated if I were on the other side of that message.

Me too, although I would be primarily infuriated about the fact that I had no power, haha.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Perhaps you might find it valuable to reexamine these beliefs somewhat. I hardly believe there is anyone who has no power whatsoever. And if you take that argument to an extreme, you would be saying to an oppressed person: "it is OK for you to think I am bad simply because of the color of my skin and even say hateful things to and about me because I have power and you have none." I think I'd be infuriated if I were on the other side of that message.

Well, you need to distinguish between an individual having power and how much of that power relates to a particular characteristic or group-membership, surely? A black person might well have a lot of power, but it is unlikely to be directly a function of their race.

But I agree somewhat, in that its a contingent fact, one always dependent on particular context and circumstances. If a gang of angry black kids corners me in an ally late at night it wouldn't much help me that I have more 'social' power in general.

I wouldn't say black people can _never_ be racist in any circumstances, but on a wider social level I just can't see that it's the same thing, particularly when it's purely about words.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Perhaps you might find it valuable to reexamine these beliefs somewhat. I hardly believe there is anyone who has no power whatsoever. And if you take that argument to an extreme, you would be saying to an oppressed person: "it is OK for you to think I am bad simply because of the color of my skin and even say hateful things to and about me because I have power and you have none." I think I'd be infuriated if I were on the other side of that message.


Another point I'd make is that I didn't say "It's OK" (I don't really think it is, I think it's probably not helpful). I said it's just not the same thing as the reverse. And I conclude that from direct personal experience, not from theory.

Some people's words carry much more power to cause harm than do others. In much the same way it was particularly horrendous when Trump told an audience of police officers that they should rough-up suspects when arresting them and bash their heads on the car door. That was worse than if some anonymous nobody on a web forum had said it, because his words carry more power.


Yet another point is that it doesn't, in my experience, actually happen very often anyway. The last time I heard a "person of colour" declare (in person) that they disliked white people, the individual concerned was actually mixed-race (technically almost as white as I am, by heritage, though I've ended up "white", while she was noticeably darker and would not have been regarded as 'white' the way I am).


Actually-black mutual acquaintances took the view that she was over-compensating owing to feeling insecure about her identity as a black person. Though, God knows, maybe that view is itself some sort of known prejudicial trope against mixed-race people? It's a minefield!
 
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interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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Me too, although I would be primarily infuriated about the fact that I had no power, haha.

I don't think that needs a haha at all, but I also think you made a slip: "that I had no power" instead of "that you say/believe I have no power". Notice also the change in tense from present to past. These may seem like trivial choices, but I do not believe they are.

Well, you need to distinguish between an individual having power and how much of that power relates to a particular characteristic or group-membership, surely? A black person might well have a lot of power, but it is unlikely to be directly a function of their race.

But I agree somewhat, in that its a contingent fact, one always dependent on particular context and circumstances. If a gang of angry black kids corners me in an ally late at night it wouldn't much help me that I have more 'social' power in general.

I wouldn't say black people can _never_ be racist in any circumstances, but on a wider social level I just can't see that it's the same thing, particularly when it's purely about words.

Another point I'd make is that I didn't say "It's OK" (I don't really think it is, I think it's probably not helpful). I said it's just not the same thing as the reverse. And I conclude that from direct personal experience, not from theory.

Some people's words carry much more power to cause harm than do others. In much the same way it was particularly horrendous when Trump told an audience of police officers that they should rough-up suspects when arresting them and bash their heads on the car door. That was worse than if some anonymous nobody on a web forum had said it, because his words carry more power.


Yet another point is that it doesn't, in my experience, actually happen very often anyway. The last time I heard a "person of colour" declare (in person) that they disliked white people, the individual concerned was actually mixed-race (technically almost as white as I am, by heritage, though I've ended up "white", while she was noticeably darker and would not have been regarded as 'white' the way I am).


Actually-black mutual acquaintances took the view that she was over-compensating owing to feeling insecure about her identity as a black person. Though, God knows, maybe that view is itself some sort of known prejudicial trope against mixed-race people? It's a minefield!

It's a lot of words, but would it be fair to say you find the oppressed person lashing out against a perceived oppressive class relatable because they are doing so to defend against threats to their power?

And the person who oppresses others as a class is an unrelatable hypocrite because they have plenty of power which is probably not under threat anyway?

Note: I'm sticking to "relatable" instead of logical/understandable, etc. I want to know what feels right to you, and I think it's what you want to express anyway as you are repeatedly expressing your personal experience over what has been taught to you.

If so, what I find striking about this personal difference in identification is that you are a member of the oppressive class, not the oppressed, yet, purely on the basis of personal experience, you relate better to the oppressed even though you have never been in their shoes (at least by automatic racial identification, although your case seems to be much less concrete -- that's ok). This is no criticism. Although I am as clearly white as I appear and live in what seems to be a more racially divided nation, I have the same experiences and drew the same conclusions without being taught them explicitly.

I think I have an explanation, but I'd like to wait on offering it until we can understand each other's experiences better.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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I don't think that needs a haha at all, but I also think you made a slip: "that I had no power" instead of "that you say/believe I have no power". Notice also the change in tense from present to past. These may seem like trivial choices, but I do not believe they are.





It's a lot of words, but would it be fair to say you find the oppressed person lashing out against a perceived oppressive class relatable because they are doing so to defend against threats to their power?

And the person who oppresses others as a class is an unrelatable hypocrite because they have plenty of power which is probably not under threat anyway?

Note: I'm sticking to "relatable" instead of logical/understandable, etc. I want to know what feels right to you, and I think it's what you want to express anyway as you are repeatedly expressing your personal experience over what has been taught to you.

If so, what I find striking about this personal difference in identification is that you are a member of the oppressive class, not the oppressed, yet, purely on the basis of personal experience, you relate better to the oppressed even though you have never been in their shoes (at least by automatic racial identification, although your case seems to be much less concrete -- that's ok). This is no criticism. Although I am as clearly white as I appear and live in what seems to be a more racially divided nation, I have the same experiences and drew the same conclusions without being taught them explicitly.

I think I have an explanation, but I'd like to wait on offering it until we can understand each other's experiences better.


OK, trying to answer without getting into too much personal detail, I'd say that it dawned on me that hearing negative words used for white people and hearing or reading extended negative comment on white people as a group (one that sticks in my mind was reading of the NOI's scientifically-novel theory about white people all being descended from experiments with cross-breeding humans with dogs, but there were far more mundane and plausible examples) might have been disconcerting or annoying or upsetting at the time they happened...but that I could rapidly forget all about them because I could just put the book down or stop listening to that person and go right back into my white-majority world.

Whereas my non-white relatives didn't seem to have that same luxury (including my own dad, who got called racist terms fairly often, whereas I never did) because they were obliged to exist in a world where such negative attitudes were all over the place and had real power behind them.

I'm honestly not at all sure at this remove if it was specifically about family, or if I had the same response about racial minority school friends, etc, but logically the awareness of relatives must have come first. And to be clear, I don't pretend to share any of my ethnic-minority relatives' culture, I've always identified as 'white' (or maybe 'Londoner', which to my mind implies at least some element of mixture!) and anything critical said about 'white people' definitely includes me.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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OK, trying to answer without getting into too much personal detail, I'd say that it dawned on me that hearing negative words used for white people and hearing or reading extended negative comment on white people as a group (one that sticks in my mind was reading of the NOI's scientifically-novel theory about white people all being descended from experiments with cross-breeding humans with dogs, but there were far more mundane and plausible examples) might have been disconcerting or annoying or upsetting at the time they happened...but that I could rapidly forget all about them because I could just put the book down or stop listening to that person and go right back into my white-majority world.

Whereas my non-white relatives didn't seem to have that same luxury (including my own dad, who got called racist terms fairly often, whereas I never did) because they were obliged to exist in a world where such negative attitudes were all over the place and had real power behind them.

I'm honestly not at all sure at this remove if it was specifically about family, or if I had the same response about racial minority school friends, etc, but logically the awareness of relatives must have come first. And to be clear, I don't pretend to share any of my ethnic-minority relatives' culture, I've always identified as 'white' (or maybe 'Londoner', which to my mind implies at least some element of mixture!) and anything critical said about 'white people' definitely includes me.

To be fair, I have some similarity being that my dad was Jewish, although non-practicing, and never taught me a lick about Judaism, and I had very little exposure to Jewish people growing up. To boot, I don't look particularly Jewish and my last name is uncommon enough that most Jews don't recognize its origins. But this mixed identification/some degree of witness of antisemitism are still (probably significantly smaller) parts of my identity.

Still, I seem to observe many people that don't have these mixed identifications exhibiting the same beliefs and behaviors, and having those beliefs and behaviors generally supported as moral by majority peer groups.

I'd like to posit that racism* is borne in part from a person feeling threats to their power and seizing opportunity to classify others in a way that reaffirms their power. Thus, if we are generally good people, it is easy to empathize with this behavior in those who have legitimate and improper threats to their power. And those who possess a power imbalance are unworthy of empathy because it is hypocritical to believe they need the power they seek.

*definitionally troublesome, but collaborating on a precise definition could be specious

There are some people who are at least significantly sociopathic and/or sadistic who would be racist with conscious intent and enjoyment of harming others. But my experience has taught me that these people are very rare, even among those who behave very badly. Many more people have learned the behavior through specific instruction or necessity as a tool to ward off feelings of powerlessness. Often, the behaviors are repeated outside of a direct threat to someone's power, but that's mostly because we function autonomously in the ways we are accustomed to. The behaviors would have been learned as a tool to face legitimate threats to power.

But that's true for the disadvantaged as well as the advantaged. It's the way the human mind works, so why is there no room to appreciate the humanity in someone who acts this way from an advantaged position?

This, I suppose, is where the reasonable person will say that the advantaged person doesn't need to be racist to protect threats to there power, therefore their action is bad. Well, I agree, but only under the condition that the advantage person logically and emotionally recognizes this, which I think is not such a reasonable expectation of people.

Harry Harlow did an experiment (more complicated than this summary) where he took infant rhesus monkeys and gave them a choice between two crudely created wire monkey figures. One with no clothes carrying a bottle of food. And one with cloth but no food. The monkeys overwhelmingly clung to the mother with clothes but no actual sustenance provided. Decades of attachment research has followed, and although controversial, the general idea is that human beings are not really much different from rhesus monkeys except in our capacity to believe we are different.

My point is, someone's actual power, wealth, nourishment, physical capability, etc. are very poorly correlated with our psychology. Someone may be born with wealth, physical gifts, health, intelligence, large social networks, and every thing you can think of that might make you jealous. But if they were raised by a nanny in an environment that took exquisite and attentive care of their physical needs but deprived them of attachment, it is quite possible they have suffered far more in life than someone who was raised in poverty, congenitally deaf, a victim of repeated and significant traumatic racism, but whose early caregivers provided for their every emotional need and supported their process of separation.

In short, I think the ways we measure whether someone has been born into a fortunate situation in life are in severe conflict with reality. We might do better to appreciate that.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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...content of above post clipped to save space...

I'm not 100% sure what point you are making with regard to the thread topic. But I think you do have a point nevertheless. I admit that I probably think contradictory things about this at different times.

On the one hand, I am just not happy at the notion of reducing sociological/political issues to personal, individual psychological ones. I'm suspicious of the idea of erasing real structural things like class and race and replacing them with what I can't help but think of as a "hippy-like" therapy-culture approach.

But on the other hand, I've myself many times felt bothered about how certain kinds of disadvantage/suffering can be generalised and given a label and treated as a 'political' issue, while others can't and are just left as an individual's problem. In fact, come to think of it, maybe what gets called 'identity politics' is a slow increase in the number of issues that get shifted from the latter category to the former?

E.g. this person has a neurological difference, a mental-health problem, or a disability, and consequently suffers from society's failure to address such issues or accommodate such differences or to protect children from the abuse that leads to problems like BPD...but this other chap is is just a bad person.

This guy is disadvantaged by class, but that guy is just a loser (even though their problems are as much a result of the specific material facts of their particular background and upbringing as the proletarian guy's low income is a result of their structurally-determined status).

Also, pretty much every actor who plays villains has said when asked about it, that few of the characters they play consider themselves to be the bad guy. Everyone's actions are just and rational from their own point-of-view (I suppose good drama shows conflict emerging from that fact, rather than just good guys vs bad guys)

Perhaps one just has to keep separate the question of how social problems should be ameliorated or fixed, and how individuals should be judged?

And I've known a _lot_ of people who had precisely the kind of childhood 'deficit' you refer to (including a number of people with diagnosed BPD, for example) and yet at the same time it still appeared to me that they remained divided by class and that even how those issues manifested themselves appeared to be influenced by demographic categories (e.g. it seemed to me that those from middle-class backgrounds tended to be more passive-aggressive and prone more to self-harm and depression, while the working-class sufferers seemed more prone to show overt 'anger management' problems and shout and scream at others*)

People do have their underlying reasons for acting as they do, even if what they _say_ are their reasons often don't make any sense, that doesn't mean there isn't a deeper rationality underneath. I do believe that is true for seemingly crazy Trump supporters, say.
(And I've had arguments with fellow 'remain' supporters as to how far Brexit voters are motivated by racism, I don't think its as simple as that)

But the problem is to be able to acknowledge that and try to address it requires one to be in a position of security and power, and not directly threatened by the surface irrationality. And I'm not sure to what extent anyone actually has that Olympian position.


* edit - they were all women, the general view was their male equivalents were all in prison.
 
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interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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I'm not 100% sure what point you are making with regard to the thread topic. But I think you do have a point nevertheless. I admit that I probably think contradictory things about this at different times.

On the one hand, I am just not happy at the notion of reducing sociological/political issues to personal, individual psychological ones.

Actually, I am very much in agreement with this and am engaging in this discussion with that in mind. Sometimes personal psychology confounds or even overrides our ability to rationally look at sociologic and political issues. I think this is one, even in people such as yourself who has an unusually high degree of insight.

I could continue our discourse, if for no other reason than to try to get you to understand what I was trying to share more concretely, but I don't think it's necessary. I think we've succeeded in the task of enabling ourselves to recognize and challenge our biases when prudent to do so. We are going to do that differently, which is a strength.