2010 Mustang Cobra

[geno]

Originally posted by: foghorn67

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Does it have that lame solid axle in the back?

Yes. But it doesn't have the ignorance you do.

Man, live axle IS lame. Dragstrip be damned, I want something that's compliant ON the road and in corners. Ford has even admitted it's keeping it around for cost purposes. The fact it's great on the drag strip is consequential. Why do you think the low production Mustangs have had IRS welded on? (03/04 Cobras, Cobra R, some of the new Roush Mustangs) It's a lot of trouble, but it's worth it.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: ExarKun333

Originally posted by: Elganja

Originally posted by: Zebo
Your point is nonsense. You'd have to totally rebuild a Kia to make a vette.

New tranny, new differential, new motor, new suspension 100K at least and it's still a POS KIA.

lol...you really have no clue. a vette's engine is nothing special. a vette's transmission is nothing special. a vette's suspension is nothing special (the Body of a vette on the other hand is more unique and is what makes the vette)

Combine the 3 (motor, trans, suspension) if you pay 100k then you should end your life for doing something so stupid.

and you still don't get it... you can make ANY car GO fast by MODIFYING it. The kia is just an example...you can name just about any car...

Against my better judgement, I will respond to this comment.

You sir, have not a clue. The "vette engine" as you state IS something special. Besides great HP and TQ, the newer corvette engines are amoung some of the best engines ever built, period. Don't give me that crap about them not being special, they are damn fine engineered machines. Ever wonder why people mod all kinds of cars to put these engines in them?

You really can't get a production car with the equipment of a corvette, at a similar price point. It is an amazing value.

This.

Sure you can take a *insert generic car here, such as a Fusion / Accord / Civic, whatever*, and add power to it, but it's not going to deliver like a Vette will. Platforms that respond that well to additional power are rare. Perhaps the MX5 qualifies.

 

[Safeway]

Looks nice, but I wouldn't drive a Mustang. Even a top end Mustang.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: geno

Originally posted by: foghorn67

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Does it have that lame solid axle in the back?

Yes. But it doesn't have the ignorance you do.

Man, live axle IS lame. Dragstrip be damned, I want something that's compliant ON the road and in corners. Ford has even admitted it's keeping it around for cost purposes. The fact it's great on the drag strip is consequential. Why do you think the low production Mustangs have had IRS welded on? (03/04 Cobras, Cobra R, some of the new Roush Mustangs) It's a lot of trouble, but it's worth it.

Which is, of course, why the current (2010) Mustang GT matches the IRS Camaro in handling tests and runs lazy circles around the IRS Challenger.

Sorry, but it's a ridiculous myth that a live axle is bad for handling. Unless you're driving at 10/10ths on cobblestones a live axle is no drawback.

ZV

 

[IcePickFreak]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: ExarKun333

Originally posted by: Elganja

Originally posted by: Zebo
Your point is nonsense. You'd have to totally rebuild a Kia to make a vette.

New tranny, new differential, new motor, new suspension 100K at least and it's still a POS KIA.

lol...you really have no clue. a vette's engine is nothing special. a vette's transmission is nothing special. a vette's suspension is nothing special (the Body of a vette on the other hand is more unique and is what makes the vette)

Combine the 3 (motor, trans, suspension) if you pay 100k then you should end your life for doing something so stupid.

and you still don't get it... you can make ANY car GO fast by MODIFYING it. The kia is just an example...you can name just about any car...

Against my better judgement, I will respond to this comment.

You sir, have not a clue. The "vette engine" as you state IS something special. Besides great HP and TQ, the newer corvette engines are amoung some of the best engines ever built, period. Don't give me that crap about them not being special, they are damn fine engineered machines. Ever wonder why people mod all kinds of cars to put these engines in them?

You really can't get a production car with the equipment of a corvette, at a similar price point. It is an amazing value.

This.

Sure you can take a *insert generic car here, such as a Fusion / Accord / Civic, whatever*, and add power to it, but it's not going to deliver like a Vette will. Platforms that respond that well to additional power are rare. Perhaps the MX5 qualifies.

While I agree, theres something so right doing something so wrong. Check out the Civette Totally unnecessary and a lot of work went into it I'm sure, but I'm sure he learned a lot as well. He did a write up on the whole process over at ls1tech.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: geno

Originally posted by: foghorn67

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
Does it have that lame solid axle in the back?

Yes. But it doesn't have the ignorance you do.

Man, live axle IS lame. Dragstrip be damned, I want something that's compliant ON the road and in corners. Ford has even admitted it's keeping it around for cost purposes. The fact it's great on the drag strip is consequential. Why do you think the low production Mustangs have had IRS welded on? (03/04 Cobras, Cobra R, some of the new Roush Mustangs) It's a lot of trouble, but it's worth it.

They aren't "welded on", they are held in place via a subframe with 14mm bolts and cantilever brackets...

And the factory setup is garbage. Lots of flex and it's bumped from the factory to understeer, the toe link bars bend like a rubber pencil, and even the knuckle joints are bushed with rubber lining. It's a lot of work to get the stock IRS to work the way it should, but being able to hammer the throttle and squat down through a turn without the rear jumping sideways when you hit a bump is well worth it.

The IRS can hook and wheel stand at the drag strip just as good or better than a solid axle when it's built right. Too many compromises from the factory to keep costs down and appease drivers who would be better off buying a Cadillac. Most people just go to a solid axle because it does the job and it's cheaper and faster than building up the IRS.

Poor factory delivery, misunderstanding of the system, and cost and time to understand it and correct it and make it work, has earned a bad rep for the IRS, which is why most people buying these cars prefer a solid axle.

It's also about 100 lbs heavier, but at least it's sprung weight in the rear where it actually improves handling by removing 70 lbs of unsprung weight and improving weight distribution, and that you can feel anywhere on the street, even in stock form.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: IcePickFreak

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: ExarKun333

Originally posted by: Elganja

Originally posted by: Zebo
Your point is nonsense. You'd have to totally rebuild a Kia to make a vette.

New tranny, new differential, new motor, new suspension 100K at least and it's still a POS KIA.

lol...you really have no clue. a vette's engine is nothing special. a vette's transmission is nothing special. a vette's suspension is nothing special (the Body of a vette on the other hand is more unique and is what makes the vette)

Combine the 3 (motor, trans, suspension) if you pay 100k then you should end your life for doing something so stupid.

and you still don't get it... you can make ANY car GO fast by MODIFYING it. The kia is just an example...you can name just about any car...

Against my better judgement, I will respond to this comment.

You sir, have not a clue. The "vette engine" as you state IS something special. Besides great HP and TQ, the newer corvette engines are amoung some of the best engines ever built, period. Don't give me that crap about them not being special, they are damn fine engineered machines. Ever wonder why people mod all kinds of cars to put these engines in them?

You really can't get a production car with the equipment of a corvette, at a similar price point. It is an amazing value.

This.

Sure you can take a *insert generic car here, such as a Fusion / Accord / Civic, whatever*, and add power to it, but it's not going to deliver like a Vette will. Platforms that respond that well to additional power are rare. Perhaps the MX5 qualifies.

While I agree, theres something so right doing something so wrong. Check out the Civette Totally unnecessary and a lot of work went into it I'm sure, but I'm sure he learned a lot as well. He did a write up on the whole process over at ls1tech.

Heh, that's some funny stuff. There's also the Ford V8 RWD Focus, but have to imagine that not only would it not drive like a purpose-built sports car, it would be more expensive as well.

I do admire the effort that goes into something like that though.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: IcePickFreak

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: ExarKun333

Originally posted by: Elganja

Originally posted by: Zebo
Your point is nonsense. You'd have to totally rebuild a Kia to make a vette.

New tranny, new differential, new motor, new suspension 100K at least and it's still a POS KIA.

lol...you really have no clue. a vette's engine is nothing special. a vette's transmission is nothing special. a vette's suspension is nothing special (the Body of a vette on the other hand is more unique and is what makes the vette)

Combine the 3 (motor, trans, suspension) if you pay 100k then you should end your life for doing something so stupid.

and you still don't get it... you can make ANY car GO fast by MODIFYING it. The kia is just an example...you can name just about any car...

Against my better judgement, I will respond to this comment.

You sir, have not a clue. The "vette engine" as you state IS something special. Besides great HP and TQ, the newer corvette engines are amoung some of the best engines ever built, period. Don't give me that crap about them not being special, they are damn fine engineered machines. Ever wonder why people mod all kinds of cars to put these engines in them?

You really can't get a production car with the equipment of a corvette, at a similar price point. It is an amazing value.

This.

Sure you can take a *insert generic car here, such as a Fusion / Accord / Civic, whatever*, and add power to it, but it's not going to deliver like a Vette will. Platforms that respond that well to additional power are rare. Perhaps the MX5 qualifies.

While I agree, theres something so right doing something so wrong. Check out the Civette Totally unnecessary and a lot of work went into it I'm sure, but I'm sure he learned a lot as well. He did a write up on the whole process over at ls1tech.

Heh, that's some funny stuff. There's also the Ford V8 RWD Focus, but have to imagine that not only would it not drive like a purpose-built sports car, it would be more expensive as well.

I do admire the effort that goes into something like that though.

ATI "Terminator" Focus. Complete '03 Cobra drivetrain including IRS, alum drive shaft, and T-56.

Doesn't even have power brakes because they couldn't fit the brake booster afterward. 😛 Hmm wonder if the hydroboost from the Cobra would fit... that is, after all, the reason they used it.

I had to replace mine about two weeks ago as I had a small ATF leak on the inside of the firewall where the pushrod comes through to the pedal and the pedal was feeling a little gritty... having to flip a wrench back and forth, 1/8th of a turn at a time, because you can't get anything else in there FTL. Good as new now, I can barely touch the brake pedal now and hear my PS pump get excited.

 

[IcePickFreak]

That's what hits my curiosity with the Civette, it's the complete vetter chasis with a civic body on it so it's suspension and everything. I would imagine the biggest problem is traction as he didn't leave the motor stock and it put down over 500rwhp.

 

[geno]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Sorry, but it's a ridiculous myth that a live axle is bad for handling. Unless you're driving at 10/10ths on cobblestones a live axle is no drawback.

ZV

Tests schmests 😛 Numbers don't tell the whole story when it comes to handling. Live axle has nowhere near the compliance, comfort or control of an independent suspension. It doesn't have the articulation needed to have a "well" handling car which responds to inputs like a sports car should. Again, do you think they applied IRS on the 03/04 Cobras for no reason at all if it added thousands to the price?

 

[Jeffg010]

Originally posted by: EvilHorace
I've always liked that new body style since it came out in '05 and especially the new GT500s. At least it's finally becoming more available, affordable vs the '08 Shelby GT500KR (for example) which is unobtainable for most.

Seems that a few are bothered by the lack of an independent rear susp. but really, why, for cornering? It's not a rally car and how fast does one need to corner in a street car anyway?

QFT The Mustangs are for blowing people off the line. Who you going to race around bends on streets.

 

[thescreensavers]

Originally posted by: Jeffg010

Originally posted by: EvilHorace
I've always liked that new body style since it came out in '05 and especially the new GT500s. At least it's finally becoming more available, affordable vs the '08 Shelby GT500KR (for example) which is unobtainable for most.

Seems that a few are bothered by the lack of an independent rear susp. but really, why, for cornering? It's not a rally car and how fast does one need to corner in a street car anyway?

QFT The Mustangs are for blowing people off the line. Who you going to race around bends on streets.

most real races include bends.

 

[zerocool84]

I saw one of these on a transport Ford truck with other cars going down the freeway during traffic. It looked cool but too damn pricey but it's limited so you pay for a limited car.

 

[Jeffg010]

Originally posted by: thescreensavers

Originally posted by: Jeffg010

Originally posted by: EvilHorace
I've always liked that new body style since it came out in '05 and especially the new GT500s. At least it's finally becoming more available, affordable vs the '08 Shelby GT500KR (for example) which is unobtainable for most.

Seems that a few are bothered by the lack of an independent rear susp. but really, why, for cornering? It's not a rally car and how fast does one need to corner in a street car anyway?

QFT The Mustangs are for blowing people off the line. Who you going to race around bends on streets.

most real races include bends.

Well every race I had with my Mustang has been at red lights and some punk pulling up beside me revving his engine thinking he was badass. There was no bends it was just a drag off the line. You might call "real races include bends" but reality is that is not what is going to happen out in the streets.

 

[zerocool84]

Originally posted by: Jeffg010

Originally posted by: thescreensavers

Originally posted by: Jeffg010

Originally posted by: EvilHorace
I've always liked that new body style since it came out in '05 and especially the new GT500s. At least it's finally becoming more available, affordable vs the '08 Shelby GT500KR (for example) which is unobtainable for most.

Seems that a few are bothered by the lack of an independent rear susp. but really, why, for cornering? It's not a rally car and how fast does one need to corner in a street car anyway?

QFT The Mustangs are for blowing people off the line. Who you going to race around bends on streets.

most real races include bends.

Well every race I had with my Mustang has been at red lights and some punk pulling up beside me revving his engine thinking he was badass. There was no bends it was just a drag off the line. You might call "real races include bends" but reality is that is not what is going to happen out in the streets.

And you're more badass than he is cus you raced him and won right? You're just as bad as that punk is.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: thescreensavers

Originally posted by: Jeffg010

Originally posted by: EvilHorace
I've always liked that new body style since it came out in '05 and especially the new GT500s. At least it's finally becoming more available, affordable vs the '08 Shelby GT500KR (for example) which is unobtainable for most.

Seems that a few are bothered by the lack of an independent rear susp. but really, why, for cornering? It's not a rally car and how fast does one need to corner in a street car anyway?

QFT The Mustangs are for blowing people off the line. Who you going to race around bends on streets.

most real races include bends.

Most people who buy cars like this don't race. Most people who race don't participate in real races. Most people who buy cars for the twisties drive in straight lines all their lives, and use "better handling" to comfort themselves at night when they get raped by a Mustang they decided to pick on in a ... straight line from a stoplight. These people are the same people that praise every BMW, criticize every American car, and spank off to pictures of the Veyron. While comparing it against every other car in the world while they talk about how crappy pushrods and live axles are in the GT500 or ZR1, while they are driving their mom's 1981 Escort.

I get more random people in "better handling" cars revving at me at stoplights than I do cars like Mustangs.

Most races period occur spontaneously as you are going from pt A to pt B driving either N-S or E-W down a typical city street from stoplight to stoplight. Somebody getting next to you at a light and giving your "the look". Someone stepping on the gas to cut you off on a merge when their lane is ending to squeeze into the 10 feet in front of you instead of yielding and being behind you with no other cars behind for miles. Or if they can't pass you because of road conditions, staying on your ass just to prove that their car is faster.

All so they can slam their brakes and make a right turn 2 seconds after getting around you. They do it because they think their car is superior or they have something to prove. It's like dogs pissing on another dog's rock. I get more people doing things like that to me in my Toyota when I'm doing 10 over than I do in my '03 Cobra going 10 under. You'd be surprised how much peoples attitudes around you change when you are in a different car.

You don't have much room to get passed 60 mph before the next red light anyway.

And nobody is going to blow past you at 200 mph pulling 9 G's in the left turn lane on your way to work at 1st and Main Street.

Thus, the majority of "racing" that the average person who buys these kinds of cars will do in their lifetime, is won with 0-60 times.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: geno

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Sorry, but it's a ridiculous myth that a live axle is bad for handling. Unless you're driving at 10/10ths on cobblestones a live axle is no drawback.

ZV

Tests schmests 😛 Numbers don't tell the whole story when it comes to handling. Live axle has nowhere near the compliance, comfort or control of an independent suspension. It doesn't have the articulation needed to have a "well" handling car which responds to inputs like a sports car should. Again, do you think they applied IRS on the 03/04 Cobras for no reason at all if it added thousands to the price?

It's close enough that to the average person who insists on having IRS to drive to the store and hates solid axles with a passion would actually not be able to even describe the difference in characteristics or be able to tell you which car had what if they were given two identical cars.

It's the same stigma as DOHC vs pushrods, coil springs vs transverse leaf springs, etc, the same principle as putting a BMW emblem on a Pontiac and watching people suddenly praise it.

 

[exdeath]

http://50mustangsuperfords.aut...stang-cobra/index.html

 

[TehMac]

Originally posted by: exdeath
http://50mustangsuperfords.aut...stang-cobra/index.html

:thumbsup:

 

[geno]

Originally posted by: exdeath

It's the same stigma as DOHC vs pushrods, coil springs vs transverse leaf springs, etc, the same principle as putting a BMW emblem on a Pontiac and watching people suddenly praise it.

It is and it isn't. I agree, there are lots out there who say "go IRS because a solid axle is old-tech" without much to back it up. It isn't the same because there is a tangible difference between the two. It changes the handling attitude and "finesse" of the car. Ford would rather sell the Mustang cheaply than give it a proper driveline / rear suspension.

However, I agree, 99% of the buyers probably wouldn't notice a difference, but there is performance potential which is unrealized due to a clunky solid rear axle, it would just be nice to see Ford pair the car up with a suspension which would not only keep its drag racing prowess, but steer it toward being more controllable and enjoyable in the corners.

In fact, I remember Top Gear doing a test where they brought out a 415HP Roush Mustang with IRS and LSD and it lapped their track 2 seconds faster than the GT500. However, the numbers don't tell the whole story, as the Roush Mustang laid flat in the corners and handled like a sports car. Is the Mustang a sports car? No, more of a pony / muscle car, but there's no reason it can't be multi-talented.

Link to the vid.

 

[exdeath]

Should see what Griggs and Maximum Motorsports can do with a solid axle. A solid axle built up from those guys handles road racing duties better than a factory stock IRS in many cases. A Griggs GT500 with a solid axle will lap cars like Evos and STIs on the track with the same driver.

http://media.photobucket.com/i...64/GR40TT/dcp_2529.jpg

We're not talking some 1950s axle hanging from a pair of leaf springs. Modern multi link solid axles with limit slip diffs, Watt's links, coil overs, swaybars, etc. are more advanced than people give them credit for.

The IRS doesn't really shine until you throw a lot of money and parts at it to fix the compromises and neutralize the factory understeer. It can be better in the long run but it takes a lot more effort.

I personally like the IRS. Just saying 😉

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: geno

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Sorry, but it's a ridiculous myth that a live axle is bad for handling. Unless you're driving at 10/10ths on cobblestones a live axle is no drawback.

ZV

Tests schmests 😛 Numbers don't tell the whole story when it comes to handling. Live axle has nowhere near the compliance, comfort or control of an independent suspension. It doesn't have the articulation needed to have a "well" handling car which responds to inputs like a sports car should. Again, do you think they applied IRS on the 03/04 Cobras for no reason at all if it added thousands to the price?

I'm not just talking about numbers, I'm also talking about how the reviewers perceived the handling "feel" of each car in subjective tests as well.

It's an absolute fact that the live axle on the 2010 Mustang GT works just as well as the IRS in the 2010 Camaro and better than the IRS in the 2010 Challenger. In fact, despite the numbers tests being equal, most drivers preferred the Mustang's feel with its live axle to the Camaro's feel.

Sorry, but a well-engineered live axle works just fine.

IRS was added to the '03/'04 Cobras because the pre-'05 Mustangs were built on a chassis that began life during the Carter administration and it was easier to build a one-off IRS than to properly re-engineer the live axle setup as was done for the '05+ models.

ZV