2008 FORMULA 1 ING AUSTRALIAN GRAND PRIX

[DivideBYZero]

I disagree with Midnight Rambler. Kimi made several stupid mistakes. Putting a wheel on the grass SHOULD cost you dearly. If he has as much car control as you think he has he wouldn't be on the grass in the first place.

Excellent race by Hamiliton, once again. Great showing by BMW. Disapointing strt for Ferrari, but that is often the case at the beginning of a season. Good to see Williams back in the game.

Bring on Malaysia!

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Is it just me or do the Speed Race commentators suck nads? Their constant jabbering really seemed to make the Race secondary and I felt disconnected from the action. I missed the first half of the race, but thought it was full of drama in what I saw. Should be an interesting season.

i like them, but this wasn't their best. the crew is very knowledgeable, comfortable and often funny. varsha and windsor are highly regarded motorsports journalists. i do like the fact the crew is a mixed bag: an american, an austrailian (been here for ages) and 2 brits.

the fact that hobbs, matchet and varsha are in the us speed studio doesn't help the overall show. they're watching the identical picture we are, logged in to the timing on formula1.com. i think windsor was sort of a hired gun on the grid, and became a regular part of the crew.

recently, i watched the british telecasts of most of the 2007 races. the enthusiasm is off the chart partly due to hamilton-mania, but having a full tv crew on site every race added a lot to the show.

 

[Midnight Rambler]

I disagree with Midnight Rambler. Kimi made several stupid mistakes. Putting a wheel on the grass SHOULD cost you dearly. If he has as much car control as you think he has he wouldn't be on the grass in the first place.

Dude, we are basically of the same opinion (ie. he made stupid mistakes), just stating it differently. Being on the grass does not equate to a lack of car control, it's more a matter of running as wide as possible to maintain speed and set up for the next turn(s). But this "standard practice" of the past is now a major gamble without TC and drivers must adapt (or fail). Anyways, like I said, he "threw it away" and needs to "tone it down" instead of going all out like in the past, as you can't rely on the car or you own "car control" (no matter how good ...) to save you now. As I also noted, this is precisely the formula that Hamilton followed, ie. he drove at maybe 85-90% of his max.

Hamilton is good, no doubt, but even at that, he is still over-rated/over-hyped. Kimi and Nico are both superior, IMHO. I would have loved to have seen McLaren get Nico over the off-season, but Sir Frank would have none of that. And while it is indeed great to see Williams once again in the hunt, I fear it is at Nico's expense ... IMHO, he could be winning a championship now if he were at McLaren or Ferrari.

Is it just me or do the Speed Race commentators suck nads?

It's you. 😀 If you think they were bad, you shoulda seen Mike Joy and Co. "mangle" F1 broadcasts several years back. Actually, Boston Dangler put it quite well, only thing I'd add is Windsor is key because he has major connections, mainly due to his having been a team principal at Williams back during their heyday.

They were "off" a bit with this telecast, but then it was their first of the year. Plus, I don't think Hobbs had had enough to drink, he normally has some great one-liners. He's no Murray Walker, but he's the closest we have.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Midnight Rambler

I disagree with Midnight Rambler. Kimi made several stupid mistakes. Putting a wheel on the grass SHOULD cost you dearly. If he has as much car control as you think he has he wouldn't be on the grass in the first place.

Dude, we are basically of the same opinion (ie. he made stupid mistakes), just stating it differently. Being on the grass does not equate to a lack of car control, it's more a matter of running as wide as possible to maintain speed and set up for the next turn(s). But this "standard practice" of the past is now a major gamble without TC and drivers must adapt (or fail). Anyways, like I said, he "threw it away" and needs to "tone it down" instead of going all out like in the past, as you can't rely on the car or you own "car control" (no matter how good ...) to save you now. As I also noted, this is precisely the formula that Hamilton followed, ie. he drove at maybe 85-90% of his max.

Hamilton is good, no doubt, but even at that, he is still over-rated/over-hyped. Kimi and Nico are both superior, IMHO. I would have loved to have seen McLaren get Nico over the off-season, but Sir Frank would have none of that. And while it is indeed great to see Williams once again in the hunt, I fear it is at Nico's expense ... IMHO, he could be winning a championship now if he were at McLaren or Ferrari.

Is it just me or do the Speed Race commentators suck nads?

It's you. 😀 If you think they were bad, you shoulda seen Mike Joy and Co. "mangle" F1 broadcasts several years back. Actually, Boston Dangler put it quite well, only thing I'd add is Windsor is key because he has major connections, mainly due to his having been a team principal at Williams back during their heyday.

They were "off" a bit with this telecast, but then it was their first of the year. Plus, I don't think Hobbs had had enough to drink, he normally has some great one-liners. He's no Murray Walker, but he's the closest we have.

Alright, I suppose I'll reserve my judgment for now and see how it goes in a few races. I don't have a lot of choice though(unless I could get BBC probably) so I'll just have to live with them either way.

 

[BigLan]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Midnight Rambler
It's you. 😀 If you think they were bad, you shoulda seen Mike Joy and Co. "mangle" F1 broadcasts several years back. Actually, Boston Dangler put it quite well, only thing I'd add is Windsor is key because he has major connections, mainly due to his having been a team principal at Williams back during their heyday.

They were "off" a bit with this telecast, but then it was their first of the year. Plus, I don't think Hobbs had had enough to drink, he normally has some great one-liners. He's no Murray Walker, but he's the closest we have.

Alright, I suppose I'll reserve my judgment for now and see how it goes in a few races. I don't have a lot of choice though(unless I could get BBC probably) so I'll just have to live with them either way.

Personally, I can't stand the speed commentators. They did a decent job of the US grand prix last year when I think they were at the track, but not being there really hurts them. I watched the itv coverage of the race yesterday, and the commentators being able to hear the cars as they go down the straight allowed them to make several insightful comments.

Sure, Hamilton-mania and the fact that James Allen is a bit slow on the uptake at times is more than accounted for by Brundle and the access they get to the drivers and pits. Being able to do something like ask DC what he thought of Massa's shunt in the heat of the moment is wonderful.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: BigLan

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Midnight Rambler
It's you. 😀 If you think they were bad, you shoulda seen Mike Joy and Co. "mangle" F1 broadcasts several years back. Actually, Boston Dangler put it quite well, only thing I'd add is Windsor is key because he has major connections, mainly due to his having been a team principal at Williams back during their heyday.

They were "off" a bit with this telecast, but then it was their first of the year. Plus, I don't think Hobbs had had enough to drink, he normally has some great one-liners. He's no Murray Walker, but he's the closest we have.

Alright, I suppose I'll reserve my judgment for now and see how it goes in a few races. I don't have a lot of choice though(unless I could get BBC probably) so I'll just have to live with them either way.

Personally, I can't stand the speed commentators. They did a decent job of the US grand prix last year when I think they were at the track, but not being there really hurts them. I watched the itv coverage of the race yesterday, and the commentators being able to hear the cars as they go down the straight allowed them to make several insightful comments.

Sure, Hamilton-mania and the fact that James Allen is a bit slow on the uptake at times is more than accounted for by Brundle and the access they get to the drivers and pits. Being able to do something like ask DC what he thought of Massa's shunt in the heat of the moment is wonderful.

That was Classic! DC, in the live broadcast, said"I'll beat the shit out of him!", when asked what he will be saying to him if he doesn't claim fault. I lol'd.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Can I ask everyone why you think Hamilton is over-hyped? Am I missing something? He lost the Championship by 1 point last year, his rookie year, almost entirely due to a lame gravel trap in the pit lane in China. He kept his head when all around him were losing theirs, had a team mate that wanted to trip him up wherever possible and still took it down to the wire.

Now he has just opened his second season with another dominating display, whilst established names are fighting the cars after rule changes. I find it astounding that people cannot see that this is one of the finest talents to enter F1 since Schumacher.

 

[WavingBlue75]

He lost in China because he was too fast on destroyed tires, rookie mistake and he paid for it. But Nico is superior? Wow, my mind is boggled.

Glock didn't just drop a wheel... he dropped the entire car into the grass and would have been fine had it not been for a tarded hump that sent him flying.

DC needs to watch the tape... Massa was fully alongside and owned the corner, if I'm a marshall I'm calling that as DC initiating the contact. Massa's left front wheel was at the front of the sidepod, even in F1.. that's more then enough.

Fun race and let's look at who dropped out and why:

Rubens - DNF, DQ'd for ignoring red light at the end of pit lane
Webber down to Fischi - 1st lap incidents
Sutil - Mechanical
Truli - Electrical
DC - Stupidity
Massa - motor
Piquet - left over
Sato- Tranny
Glock - Accident
Kubica - Accident

Very few retirements due from lack of TC.. and it would not have helped Glock as he was all of 3 1/2 wheels off course. 1st lap incident was not TC related, there have been 1st lap incidents during the TC era, before the TC era, and now after the TC era.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Can I ask everyone why you think Hamilton is over-hyped? Am I missing something? He lost the Championship by 1 point last year, his rookie year, almost entirely due to a lame gravel trap in the pit lane in China. He kept his head when all around him were losing theirs, had a team mate that wanted to trip him up wherever possible and still took it down to the wire.

Now he has just opened his second season with another dominating display, whilst established names are fighting the cars after rule changes. I find it astounding that people cannot see that this is one of the finest talents to enter F1 since Schumacher.

he's a fantastic young talent receiving the best support in the world: mclaren's cars and support since childhood, personal coaching by stewart and moss, and alonso taught him a thing or two. no doubt he will likely be remembered as one of the best.
but:
a. he has yet to claim the driver's title, but mostly
b. i have an aversion to celebrities spammed at me.

edit: i'll watch the itv broadcast tonight.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: WavingBlue75
He lost in China because he was too fast on destroyed tires, rookie mistake and he paid for it.

The team kept him out. He's a rookie only to F1, not racing. It's not like he just got the job and packed up working in McDonalds.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Is it just me or do the Speed Race commentators suck nads? Their constant jabbering really seemed to make the Race secondary and I felt disconnected from the action. I missed the first half of the race, but thought it was full of drama in what I saw. Should be an interesting season.

I love their commentators. Watch a race covered by ABC and you'll know what true suckage is. At least they have half a clue of what is going on.

That said, I think Ferrari are going to be behind the 8 ball until the circus returns to Europe. Another note, did anyone notice how the Red Bull just broke apart after that collision with Felipe Massa's Ferrari? Man, that car looks fragile as hell.

Oh, and David Hobbs fucking rules!

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Oh, and David Hobbs fucking rules!

hell yeah!

last summer, there was a classic car show + festivities + black tie dinner in newport, rhode island. hobbs, moss and many others were guests. i was planning on going, before my wheels were stolen. the next weekend i'm watching f1, and hobbs mentions TWICE what a great time everybody had. it was like he reached out and zinged me.

 

[WavingBlue75]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: WavingBlue75
He lost in China because he was too fast on destroyed tires, rookie mistake and he paid for it.

The team kept him out. He's a rookie only to F1, not racing. It's not like he just got the job and packed up working in McDonalds.

The driver is well within his power to say, nuh uh.. can't do it anymore. Tire choice and when to pit always comes down to the driver. Nowhere did I say he just got the job from McD's, great way to put words in my mouth. :roll:

 

[Midnight Rambler]

But Nico is superior? Wow, my mind is boggled.

OK, I'll back that down just a bit ... he's just as talented as Lewis. IMHO, his podium was the drive of the race in Oz, and it wasn't down to luck or attrition either. He had several great races last year as well, only to have the Williams fail him. He reminds me a lot of his father, who was blindingly fast.

he's a fantastic young talent receiving the best support in the world: mclaren's cars and support since childhood, personal coaching by stewart and moss

Couldn't have said it better. He's good, no doubt, but he also seems a bit "full of himself" which is a turnoff for some. On the other hand, most good drivers are ... see Senna, Prost, etc. Still though, there are other drivers in the paddock who could win if they too had a seat in the McLaren or Ferrari. In addition to Nico, add Webber, and Button could too, esp. with his smooth style, something that will be at a premium this year without TC, etc. And I expect Heikki to really come on once we get to mid-season.

Tire choice and when to pit always comes down to the driver.

Really ? I'd bet Hamilton and Alonso would both disagree with you ... see Monaco and Hungary from last year. And I'm sure Kimi was begging to pit a couple years ago after he had flat-spotted his front tire, yet we got to watch it (tire) degrade further lap by lap until it finally exploded.

Beyond that, the teams employ people whose sole purpose is to calculate strategy, before and during the race (IIRC, McLaren has a "live" link back to Woking and their supercomputer(s) there, just for this purpose). So, no driver is going to overrule them (team). Well, maybe 'Scummi occasionally did whilst at Ferrari, but that'd be the rare exception, and likely Ross still had some say.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: WavingBlue75

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: WavingBlue75
He lost in China because he was too fast on destroyed tires, rookie mistake and he paid for it.

The team kept him out. He's a rookie only to F1, not racing. It's not like he just got the job and packed up working in McDonalds.

The driver is well within his power to say, nuh uh.. can't do it anymore. Tire choice and when to pit always comes down to the driver. Nowhere did I say he just got the job from McD's, great way to put words in my mouth. :roll:

No, he isn't and I'll put whatever I like in your mouth.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Midnight Rambler

But Nico is superior? Wow, my mind is boggled.

OK, I'll back that down just a bit ... he's just as talented as Lewis. IMHO, his podium was the drive of the race in Oz, and it wasn't down to luck or attrition either. He had several great races last year as well, only to have the Williams fail him. He reminds me a lot of his father, who was blindingly fast.

he's a fantastic young talent receiving the best support in the world: mclaren's cars and support since childhood, personal coaching by stewart and moss

Couldn't have said it better. He's good, no doubt, but he also seems a bit "full of himself" which is a turnoff for some. On the other hand, most good drivers are ... see Senna, Prost, etc. Still though, there are other drivers in the paddock who could win if they too had a seat in the McLaren or Ferrari. In addition to Nico, add Webber, and Button could too, esp. with his smooth style, something that will be at a premium this year without TC, etc. And I expect Heikki to really come on once we get to mid-season.

Tire choice and when to pit always comes down to the driver.

Really ? I'd bet Hamilton and Alonso would both disagree with you ... see Monaco and Hungary from last year. And I'm sure Kimi was begging to pit a couple years ago after he had flat-spotted his front tire, yet we got to watch it (tire) degrade further lap by lap until it finally exploded.

Beyond that, the teams employ people whose sole purpose is to calculate strategy, before and during the race (IIRC, McLaren has a "live" link back to Woking and their supercomputer(s) there, just for this purpose). So, no driver is going to overrule them (team). Well, maybe 'Scummi occasionally did whilst at Ferrari, but that'd be the rare exception, and likely Ross still had some say.

Hindsight is always 20/20. Kimi was leading that race and to pit would have dropped him down to probably 5th or 6th. It was a gamble and it didn't pay off unfortunately and he ended up crashing on the last lap. Of course those stupid tire rules of that year didn't help either (entire race must be run on one set of tires). BTW-I don't think the tire failed, I think the suspension failed because of the vibrations from the flat spotted tire.

 

[WavingBlue75]

OK, let's get something straight... just like if you need to replace parts now in parc ferme you can do so providing you prove to Charlie that there is an issue and replace like for like(think pad change this weekend). The same rule was in place a couple of years ago with the tires. IF you had a tire issue and needed to pit/replace due to safety you absolutely COULD. You just had to talk with Charlie and let him know it was a safety issue.. and watching the suspension vibrate I can guarantee you a tire change would not have been a problem. Kimi didn't want to, and could have.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: WavingBlue75
OK, let's get something straight... just like if you need to replace parts now in parc ferme you can do so providing you prove to Charlie that there is an issue and replace like for like(think pad change this weekend). The same rule was in place a couple of years ago with the tires. IF you had a tire issue and needed to pit/replace due to safety you absolutely COULD. You just had to talk with Charlie and let him know it was a safety issue.. and watching the suspension vibrate I can guarantee you a tire change would not have been a problem. Kimi didn't want to, and could have.

I know that. What I'm saying is that if tire changes were an option (assuming the rule wasn't there) the problem likely wouldn't have been as bad because the tires on Kimi's car wouldn't have had an entire race distance on them at that point. There were a number of races that year where tire failures were a problem including the debacle at Indy. You're saying they could have called him in for a tire change but what I'm saying is that if tire changes were allowed during the race (like they were the year before and the year after) it wouldn't have been an issue because they wouldn't have had a full race distance on them. The rule was you could change tires only if there were changing conditions or if you had a safety issue.

Unfortunately, the tire manufacturers make tires specifically for that particular track and they provide two different compounds designed to work on that track in the weather predicted. If it was hotter than predicted you might have excessive wear or other problems. It was a stupid rule and it directly caused a number of accidents that year. You saw many more tire failures that year than any other and THAT is a serious safety issue.

McLaren chose not to call Raikkonen in and it bit them in the ass. Still, given a similar situation any other team would have done the same. The chance of victory is just too great to pass up.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: WavingBlue75
OK, let's get something straight... just like if you need to replace parts now in parc ferme you can do so providing you prove to Charlie that there is an issue and replace like for like(think pad change this weekend). The same rule was in place a couple of years ago with the tires. IF you had a tire issue and needed to pit/replace due to safety you absolutely COULD. You just had to talk with Charlie and let him know it was a safety issue.. and watching the suspension vibrate I can guarantee you a tire change would not have been a problem. Kimi didn't want to, and could have.

I know that. What I'm saying is that if tire changes were an option (assuming the rule wasn't there) the problem likely wouldn't have been as bad because the tires on Kimi's car wouldn't have had an entire race distance on them at that point. There were a number of races that year where tire failures were a problem including the debacle at Indy. You're saying they could have called him in for a tire change but what I'm saying is that if tire changes were allowed during the race (like they were the year before and the year after) it wouldn't have been an issue because they wouldn't have had a full race distance on them. The rule was you could change tires only if there were changing conditions or if you had a safety issue.

Unfortunately, the tire manufacturers make tires specifically for that particular track and they provide two different compounds designed to work on that track in the weather predicted. If it was hotter than predicted you might have excessive wear or other problems. It was a stupid rule and it directly caused a number of accidents that year. You saw many more tire failures that year than any other and THAT is a serious safety issue.

McLaren chose not to call Raikkonen in and it bit them in the ass. Still, given a similar situation any other team would have done the same. The chance of victory is just too great to pass up.

QUE!!? 😉

 

[WavingBlue75]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: WavingBlue75
OK, let's get something straight... just like if you need to replace parts now in parc ferme you can do so providing you prove to Charlie that there is an issue and replace like for like(think pad change this weekend). The same rule was in place a couple of years ago with the tires. IF you had a tire issue and needed to pit/replace due to safety you absolutely COULD. You just had to talk with Charlie and let him know it was a safety issue.. and watching the suspension vibrate I can guarantee you a tire change would not have been a problem. Kimi didn't want to, and could have.

I know that. What I'm saying is that if tire changes were an option (assuming the rule wasn't there) the problem likely wouldn't have been as bad because the tires on Kimi's car wouldn't have had an entire race distance on them at that point. There were a number of races that year where tire failures were a problem including the debacle at Indy. You're saying they could have called him in for a tire change but what I'm saying is that if tire changes were allowed during the race (like they were the year before and the year after) it wouldn't have been an issue because they wouldn't have had a full race distance on them. The rule was you could change tires only if there were changing conditions or if you had a safety issue.

Tire changes WERE allowed if your tire was damaged and HIS WERE DAMAGED. There was NOTHING stopping them from changing it was obvious it fit the rules.

Tire failures at Indy had nothing to do with 1 tire from qualifying onwards. Tires were failing IN PRACTICE, they didn't even make the race, hell they didn't make 20 laps without failing. Tires were failing not because of the 1 tire rule but because of shoddy construction.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: WavingBlue75

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: WavingBlue75
OK, let's get something straight... just like if you need to replace parts now in parc ferme you can do so providing you prove to Charlie that there is an issue and replace like for like(think pad change this weekend). The same rule was in place a couple of years ago with the tires. IF you had a tire issue and needed to pit/replace due to safety you absolutely COULD. You just had to talk with Charlie and let him know it was a safety issue.. and watching the suspension vibrate I can guarantee you a tire change would not have been a problem. Kimi didn't want to, and could have.

I know that. What I'm saying is that if tire changes were an option (assuming the rule wasn't there) the problem likely wouldn't have been as bad because the tires on Kimi's car wouldn't have had an entire race distance on them at that point. There were a number of races that year where tire failures were a problem including the debacle at Indy. You're saying they could have called him in for a tire change but what I'm saying is that if tire changes were allowed during the race (like they were the year before and the year after) it wouldn't have been an issue because they wouldn't have had a full race distance on them. The rule was you could change tires only if there were changing conditions or if you had a safety issue.

Tire changes WERE allowed if your tire was damaged and HIS WERE DAMAGED. There was NOTHING stopping them from changing it was obvious it fit the rules.

Tire failures at Indy had nothing to do with 1 tire from qualifying onwards. Tires were failing IN PRACTICE, they didn't even make the race, hell they didn't make 20 laps without failing. Tires were failing not because of the 1 tire rule but because of shoddy construction.

Yes, I know tire changes WERE allowed, but KIMI RAIKKONEN WAS HANDILY LEADING THE RACE AT THE TIME!!! WITH NO FURTHER PIT STOPS SCHEDULED...What part of this don't you understand? 😕 Yeah, he had a problem. I don't know if it was Raikkonen who asked to come in or the team...does it matter?

The point is the regulations of that season did not promote safety, they promoted recklessness and gambling. It was forced upon them by the rules. The teams have little time to practice during a race weekend and they have to set up the car for best performance over a race distance, factoring in tire wear, refueling, qualifying pace, race pace and about a million other things.

Let me ask you this, if it was you in the car and it was your call would you come in?

For a driver at this level anything less than victory is defeat...whether it comes at the hands of a failure of the car, the team, or performance of the driver. Formula One drivers are risk takers. Ask any one of them what they would have done in Raikkonen's situation and they'd all say they'd go for it. If they didn't, they don't belong in Formula One.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

"For a driver at this level anything less than victory is defeat...whether it comes at the hands of a failure of the car, the team, or performance of the driver. Formula One drivers are risk takers. Ask any one of them what they would have done in Raikkonen's situation and they'd all say they'd go for it. If they didn't, they don't belong in Formula One."

risky business, indeed. thank goodness for jackie stewart.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

The suspension failed because of the vibrations from the flat spotted tire

QFT

As for Hamilton, the team should have spotted that the tire was down to the canvas, hell I did when watching it on TV, the team can stick their head out and look, as well as having TV coverage available in the pits.

EDIT: As for the Malaysian GP I wouldn't rule Ferrari out, Massa had pole last year.

 

[Midnight Rambler]

The suspension failed because of the vibrations from the flat spotted tire

Thank you for pointing that out, the 'ol memory bank ain't what it used to be.

PROPOSAL : Time for a new thread guys, ie. Round 2 - Malaysia. Also, it's obvious, and cool, that there's many passionate F1 fans here at AT Forums. But we all could stand to be a little more civil in our exchanges/arguments, myself included.

On to Round 2 !