2002 Entry-Level Luxury Sedan Comparison Test

[Amused]

Originally posted by: NFS4

That all looks a lot like all the other reports, NSF4. Read the one for the second place winners. I see just as many critiques in there as well.

And their main problem is that you can get a car much like it for much less.

Well, you can get the SAME damn car as an ES300 or I35 with the SAME damn engines for much less as well.

Here's the rub: VW's Passat has had a luxury interior all along, they just added a luxury engine.

Nissan and Toyota just took a family sedan, and added a luxury interior to it and changed very little else.

What's the diff?

First, considering that the W8 was the "winner" of this competition, I wouldn't expect it to have a laundry list of issues to present as compared to the other vehicles in the test. I can understand some issues with the 2 - 5 place finishers, but not this many for a FIRST place finish.

The ES300 is SUBSTANTIALLY different from the Camry in suspension tuning, engine tuning (210 HP vs 193), exterior styling, interior design, etc.
The I35 is less different from the Maxima, but moreso than the W8 is to regular Passats.

The "laundry list" is no less signifigant than any other car in this comparison.

The ES300 is like riding on a cloud. Edmunds has LONG favored good handling over a could like ride and complete disconnection from the road... and I agree with this bias. I've test driven the ES 300 and personally it was the most uninspired drive I've ever taken outside a Crown Victoria. It was like driving a marshmallow.

And Vi has a point. A $7000 premium for an engine is not out of line in the luxury market.

 

[NFS4]

How the I 35 won second place is beyond me

Big difference though. The W8 won FIRST place. I would EXPECT them to have fewer issues with a car they proclaim the best of the bunch.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: NFS4

How the I 35 won second place is beyond me

Big difference though. The W8 won FIRST place. I would EXPECT them to have fewer issues with a car they proclaim the best of the bunch.

It won based primarily on the driving experience. As I pointed out before, you have to drive one to understand.

Ultimately, though, the ES could not overcome the performance advantage of the Passat, or the stronger engine and lower price of the I35, and had to settle for a tie with the latter

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: NFS4

How the I 35 won second place is beyond me

Big difference though. The W8 won FIRST place. I would EXPECT them to have fewer issues with a car they proclaim the best of the bunch.

It won based primarily on the driving experience. As I pointed out before, you have to drive one to understand.

If acceleration wasn't a primary determing factor (as stated in the article and attested by the ES300's second place finish), then what does the W8 offer in "driving experience" that a regular leather equipped $29,000 V6 Passat GLS 4-Motion doesn't? Other than the engine, there's nothing else there.



As for the 525i vs 540i comparision. The difference is more like $15,000 and the 540i comes with A LOT more standard and exclusive features than the 525i does. The 525i is the EPITOME of a stripper car. The 540i is loaded to the hilt.

The Passat is already a very well equipped car, unlike the 525i compared to the 540i. And IIRC, the 525i is a recent edition to the lineup. It has always been the 528i/530i and the 540i for the "mainstream" 5-Series cars.

Regardless, moving downmarket with a car like the 525i is easier for BMW than it is for VW to try to move upmarket with the Passat W8.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Amused
I've test driven the ES 300 and personally it was the most uninspired drive I've ever taken outside a Crown Victoria. It was like driving a marshmallow.

thats the funniest thing i've read all day!

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: NFS4

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: NFS4

How the I 35 won second place is beyond me

Big difference though. The W8 won FIRST place. I would EXPECT them to have fewer issues with a car they proclaim the best of the bunch.

It won based primarily on the driving experience. As I pointed out before, you have to drive one to understand.

If acceleration wasn't a primary determing factor (as stated in the article and attested by the ES300's second place finish), then what does the W8 offer in "driving experience" that a regular leather equipped $29,000 V6 Passat GLS 4-Motion doesn't? Other than the engine, there's nothing else there.

You're right. The only thing that put this car in this competition was the larger engine and price tag. This does not mean the Passat is something less, it only means that the GLX could have charged $5000 more and done very well in this competition as well. In other words, it means the lower priced Passats are that much better than their competition, not that the W8 is that much worse. All one has to do is see how the 1.8T and 2.8 Passats handily win nearly every single comparison in their class to see what I mean.

Like I said, there is no point arguing this until you go drive one. Go do it, it's a blast Try out one of those sporty new Jetta GLIs while you're there. Those are a lot of fun

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Amused
I've test driven the ES 300 and personally it was the most uninspired drive I've ever taken outside a Crown Victoria. It was like driving a marshmallow.

thats the funniest thing i've read all day!

It wasn't too funny to me. I love the Lexus interior/exterior and really wanted one. But I never felt so disconnected from the road in my life.

 

[BigSmooth]

Originally posted by: Amused
Gee, let's go look at the other reviews and pick out the bad stuff, shall we?

--Is the I35 more of a Maxima than the ES 300 is a Camry? Yes. Nearly everything's the same right down to the sheet metal and nonindependent rear suspension. For buyers, the value may lie in the subtleties ? the front and rear fascias employ a more conservative aesthetic, and inside, you'll find faux wood inserts that do a decent impression of the real bird's eye maple in the Q45

--As we learned, the I35 is rather digestible for its price class, but several editors couldn't shake the feeling that a Maxima GLE would provide equal gratification for less money

--The Infiniti's automatic is rather basic by today's entry-luxury standards ? it's only a four-speed and lacks automanual functionality

--the transmission lacks shift control logic to keep it from hunting unnecessarily on steep up- and downhill grades when left in "D."

--The I35 retains the Maxima's less costly suspension design

--However, driving over a bump or broken pavement with any measure of gusto does upset the chassis ? making an otherwise comfortable ride seem momentarily harsh.

-- drivers felt the Infiniti lacked poise when pushed hard ? even alongside a cruiser like the Lexus.

--We were generally satisfied with the steering, which serves the I35's mission with progressive weighting and predictable responses to driver input. However, most found it deficient in road feel, and a 40-foot turning radius made the I35 feel cumbersome in parking lots.

--Inside, the ergonomically sound cabin seems pleasant enough on its own, or a little basic when you consider the Maxima offers a nearly identical environment. All of the center stack controls, including the single-zone automatic climate control system, and switchgear are the same

--no one was wild about the sparkly taupe plastic surrounding the center stack controls.

--The driver seat is soft but not especially supportive ? it will do for long commutes but not for aggressive driving on back roads

--Infiniti skimped on power controls: while the driver seat offers eight-way power adjustment (along with manual lumbar ? only the Lexus had a power control for this) and retracts to allow for graceful exits, the front-passenger seat offers just four-way power adjustment; all of the other cars offer eight-way

--editors gave the Infiniti lower scores for visibility, citing a rather small rear window blocked by the three rear headrests.

--Trunk ..."gooseneck" hinges will limit your loading options.

--We did note a handful of build quality issues in our I35 test car, including a few misaligned interior panels (as well as a few that flexed) and rough edges on some plastics. On the outside, one editor noted a slight misaligned rear passenger door that caused a wind leak, and another reported that the trunk fit was slightly off. We also noted several minor interior rattles during our test loops, and our stereo expert uncovered a rattling subwoofer grille during his evaluation.

--Though not as luxurious as the Lexus or Passat...

How the I 35 won second place is beyond me

They also point out that the I35 is "only about $1,000 more than a comparable Maxima GLE" - less of a premium than you pay for the W8 trim in the Passat.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the W8 is a great car if it won this test, especially after the praise Edmund's recently heaped on the ES300. I just look at the other cars available for $38K and I am still not convinced the W8 is worth that much money, despite what that one editor said.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Amused
I've test driven the ES 300 and personally it was the most uninspired drive I've ever taken outside a Crown Victoria. It was like driving a marshmallow.

thats the funniest thing i've read all day!

It wasn't too funny to me. I love the Lexus interior/exterior and really wanted one. But I never felt so disconnected from the road in my life.

they do have really nice interiors and the build quality is the standard... if only they could be more... BMW-like... i guess thats what the IS is for but that looks like a factory riced civic... and reports are that the build and interior aren't near so nice.

 

[BooneRebel]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider

Originally posted by: BooneRebel
The VW Passat W8 is the best entry-level luxury sedan only if you are a VW employee and are limited to choosing solely from their make. $38,000 for a Passat?!?! Are you kidding me? They excluded the BMW 3-series because it's in the 'sport' category, but why would you pay nearly double the base price of a Passat to get a V8 unless you were interested in 'sport'? For the same money, Audi will give you a much more luxurious finished car for your same $38,000. If you're willing to step outside of the Audi/VW body style, then go for a BMW 3-series.

I own a Passat V6 GLS 5 speed wagon

Please tell me where I could have bought this car for 20k!!

The base price of a stripped Passat is 21750.

I have driven several 3 series BMW's. The difference is build quality is nill. When you have driven a car like mine as much as I have yours, then let's compare and contrast. BTW because of the larger size of my car, it really is more in the 5 series. Now that is a better car. Please tell me where I can buy a new 8 cylinder BMW wagon for 38k?

Don't be a doofus. I'm not sure if I get your point (if there is one). I said that $38,000 is too much for a Passat. For that much money you're nearly at the top of the BMW 3-series and could also get a 525 or 530. I didn't say that every Passat was $20K, just that the base starts there. Regardless of how nice you think it is, VW is going to have a hard time moving very many of these cars at $38K. At that price buyers have quite a range of more 'luxurious' makes than VW. And comparing your V6 GLS wagon to a BMW V8 isn't apples to apples, anyway. <sigh> My point is that if you have nearly $40K burning a hole in your pocket, there is already a sizeable market of other cars at least as capable as the Passat, if not more so. Unless they offer benefits equivalent to BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, etc. at a much lower price they're not going to make a dent in the market. Plus, having Audi as the 'luxury' mark in the VW stable will prevent serious buyers from looking too hard at VW anyway. VW certainly has it's place and they have done extremely well in building the Jetta and Passat. But buyers do not yet equate "VW" with "luxury", and this token effort isn't going to change much.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: BooneRebel

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider

Originally posted by: BooneRebel
The VW Passat W8 is the best entry-level luxury sedan only if you are a VW employee and are limited to choosing solely from their make. $38,000 for a Passat?!?! Are you kidding me? They excluded the BMW 3-series because it's in the 'sport' category, but why would you pay nearly double the base price of a Passat to get a V8 unless you were interested in 'sport'? For the same money, Audi will give you a much more luxurious finished car for your same $38,000. If you're willing to step outside of the Audi/VW body style, then go for a BMW 3-series.

I own a Passat V6 GLS 5 speed wagon

Please tell me where I could have bought this car for 20k!!

The base price of a stripped Passat is 21750.

I have driven several 3 series BMW's. The difference is build quality is nill. When you have driven a car like mine as much as I have yours, then let's compare and contrast. BTW because of the larger size of my car, it really is more in the 5 series. Now that is a better car. Please tell me where I can buy a new 8 cylinder BMW wagon for 38k?

Don't be a doofus. I'm not sure if I get your point (if there is one). I said that $38,000 is too much for a Passat. For that much money you're nearly at the top of the BMW 3-series and could also get a 525 or 530. I didn't say that every Passat was $20K, just that the base starts there. Regardless of how nice you think it is, VW is going to have a hard time moving very many of these cars at $38K. At that price buyers have quite a range of more 'luxurious' makes than VW. And comparing your V6 GLS wagon to a BMW V8 isn't apples to apples, anyway. <sigh> My point is that if you have nearly $40K burning a hole in your pocket, there is already a sizeable market of other cars at least as capable as the Passat, if not more so. Unless they offer benefits equivalent to BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, etc. at a much lower price they're not going to make a dent in the market. Plus, having Audi as the 'luxury' mark in the VW stable will prevent serious buyers from looking too hard at VW anyway. VW certainly has it's place and they have done extremely well in building the Jetta and Passat. But buyers do not yet equate "VW" with "luxury", and this token effort isn't going to change much.

That's exactly what everyone said about $30,000 Passats just 4 years ago. And we all know what happened there...

VW has made it clear that they are moving Audi to the Sport market, and VW to Luxury. I'd say they're well on their way with the W8.

BTW, a 530 starts at 40,000. Once you option it out, you're WELL over that. (50,000 without the Nav system) The 525 is 38,000 with leather, and no other options. The W8 comes loaded. There are no options because it has everything on it.

 

[NFS4]

That's exactly what everyone said about $30,000 Passats just 4 years ago. And we all know what happened there...

4 years ago, the Passat was worth 30,000 and it got lots of praise. Today, the Passat is STILL worth $30,000. $39,000 is asking too much when you can get better equipped 3-Series and A4 Quattros for that price.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: NFS4

That's exactly what everyone said about $30,000 Passats just 4 years ago. And we all know what happened there...

4 years ago, the Passat was worth 30,000 and it got lots of praise. Today, the Passat is STILL worth $30,000. $39,000 is asking too much when you can get better equipped 3-Series and A4 Quattros for that price.

People looking at the Passat aren't going to be as interested in the A4 or 3-series. There is a hige difference in interior room between these cars.

Are you saying the W8 Passat is worth no more than a 2.8 Passat? From where does this logic come?

By this logic, a 330 is worth no more than a 325. A 530 is worth no more than a 525... and so on.

Look at the price difference between a 2.5 Z3 and a 3.0 Z3. And the HP difference isn't nearly as great as the difference between the 2.8 and W8.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: NFS4

That's exactly what everyone said about $30,000 Passats just 4 years ago. And we all know what happened there...

4 years ago, the Passat was worth 30,000 and it got lots of praise. Today, the Passat is STILL worth $30,000. $39,000 is asking too much when you can get better equipped 3-Series and A4 Quattros for that price.

3 series is tiny compared to a passat, isn't it? there might not be much back seat in the passat (dunno, never been there) but the 3 series has got to be smaller. the a4 definitely is.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: NFS4

That's exactly what everyone said about $30,000 Passats just 4 years ago. And we all know what happened there...

4 years ago, the Passat was worth 30,000 and it got lots of praise. Today, the Passat is STILL worth $30,000. $39,000 is asking too much when you can get better equipped 3-Series and A4 Quattros for that price.

3 series is tiny compared to a passat, isn't it? there might not be much back seat in the passat (dunno, never been there) but the 3 series has got to be smaller. the a4 definitely is.

I've got a Passat. The back seat is very nice. I'm 6' and I have room to spare when I sit in the back seat. The 3-series is much smaller, and the A4 is smaller still.

I'd say the A6 and 5 series is a MUCH better comparison to the Passat than the 3 series and A4. I wonder why they weren't in the competition?

Wait, I know why. They're at least 10,000 more, and therefore are not "entry level" luxury cars.

 

[BooneRebel]

That's exactly what everyone said about $30,000 Passats just 4 years ago. And we all know what happened there...

VW has made it clear that they are moving Audi to the Sport market, and VW to Luxury. I'd say they're well on their way with the W8.

BTW, a 530 starts at 40,000. Once you option it out, you're WELL over that. (50,000 without the Nav system) The 525 is 38,000 with leather, and no other options. The W8 comes loaded. There are no options because it has everything on it.

OK, you got me. I give up. VW is obviously better than BMW. I don't know how I've been misled all of these years. I've always liked those Bavarian cars, I'm going to hate to see them go. <sniff>

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: BooneRebel

That's exactly what everyone said about $30,000 Passats just 4 years ago. And we all know what happened there...

VW has made it clear that they are moving Audi to the Sport market, and VW to Luxury. I'd say they're well on their way with the W8.

BTW, a 530 starts at 40,000. Once you option it out, you're WELL over that. (50,000 without the Nav system) The 525 is 38,000 with leather, and no other options. The W8 comes loaded. There are no options because it has everything on it.

OK, you got me. I give up. VW is obviously better than BMW. I don't know how I've been misled all of these years. I've always liked those Bavarian cars, I'm going to hate to see them go. <sniff>

Where did I say VW is better?

VW is less expensive. And better than other cars in their class. The 5 series is a class above VW, and the prices reflect that.

 

[vi edit]

VW is less expensive. And better than other cars in their class. The 5 series is a class above VW, and the prices reflect that.

Kind of what I stated eariler but was missed, or ignored.

There's a $20,000 difference between the base level 5 series and the top end V8 model. Is there really any difference in the person that buys a 540 instead of a 525 and someone who buys a W8 instead of a 1.8t?

 

[BooneRebel]

There's a $20,000 difference between the base level 5 series and the top end V8 model. Is there really any difference in the person that buys a 540 instead of a 525 and someone who buys a W8 instead of a 1.8t?

To me the difference is the percentage that $20,000 increase makes over the base level car. Kia sells Rios for $6,000. If they drop a V8 in one would you pay $28,000 for it?

The higher you move up the bracket, the less important that $20,000 becomes, both as a fraction of the overall price and to the wallet of the person paying for it. In VW's case, I just don't think the price is justified. You can get an all wheel drive 330 with a V6 that will outperform the Passat W8 in fit, finish, looks, and on the track.

 

[vi edit]

The higher you move up the bracket, the less important that $20,000 becomes, both as a fraction of the overall price and to the wallet of the person paying for it. In VW's case, I just don't think the price is justified. You can get an all wheel drive 330 with a V6 that will outperform the Passat W8 in fit, finish, looks, and on the track.

But then you just run back into the problem that's been presented already - the Passat is a significantly larger car than the 3 series. You can't comfortably put 4 adults in there.

The W8 is unique to say the least.

 

[ElFenix]

face it, the only way the W8 couldn't be considered a good value is when compared to a loaded GLS. they could've used that model and the passat would have walked away with the competition. why even bother with a comparo when you've got such a great car as the GLS which would win hands down?

 

[NFS4]

Originally posted by: vi_edit

The higher you move up the bracket, the less important that $20,000 becomes, both as a fraction of the overall price and to the wallet of the person paying for it. In VW's case, I just don't think the price is justified. You can get an all wheel drive 330 with a V6 that will outperform the Passat W8 in fit, finish, looks, and on the track.

But then you just run back into the problem that's been presented already - the Passat is a significantly larger car than the 3 series. You can't comfortably put 4 adults in there.

The W8 is unique to say the least.

In the rear quarters, two medium-size adults should be fairly comfortable, but those broader of beam and longer of inseam might find it tight back there.

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/73569/page009.html

Unless you're a fatty or over 6'3" or so you should be fine

 

[vi edit]

Unless the new design has VASTLY increased rear seating space over the last gen 3 series, then there is absolutely NO comparison between rear seating space of a 3 series and a Passat. None.

I own a Passat, and I've done 8 hours in the backseat of a '97 3 series. It was painful. And I'm only 6'. The only car in it's class that I've seen match it is the new Altima. Don't give me numbers published out of a magazine. I'm talking real world experience here.

 

[BooneRebel]

OK, I think I have the rear seat capacity taken care of for all of you buying a car for it's back seat:

Loaded, 6.8L V10, 4WD, and you can put a Passat on the luggage rack as a spare, all for less than $38,000. I win!

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: BooneRebel
OK, I think I have the rear seat capacity taken care of for all of you buying a car for it's back seat:

Loaded, 6.8L V10, 4WD, and you can put a Passat on the luggage rack as a spare, all for less than $38,000. I win!

CarsDirect.com Price $598,695
(Incentive or rebates included in price)
MSRP $43,555
Invoice $38,280

:Q :Q