No shit. Never take it to that guy again, he doesn't know what he's talking about.
"touching the inside of the tail pipe", indeed.
That is a complete joke.
Do this: If you have the no-start problem again, crack the gas open just a bit and try it. If it starts then, you need and IAC valve, or Idle Air Control valve.
As far as gas mileage goes, that car is old and there are a ton of reasons the mileage could be down. Or a bunch of little reasons combined.
Very true, but you CAN clean the IAC valve, which is a very likely culprit of an intermittent no-start....particularly when you get weather changes....and since it's starting to be fall, the OP just might be experiencing some.
But yeah, that "mechanic", isn't one.
Lol that was a funny idea by the mechanic. Anyways if it is related to dirty injectors (by what you've said, I doubt it) then in order to clean the injectors, you must remove them and either rebuild them (not many people do this) or replace them entirely. I don't believe it's the injectors because if it was, you'd have a lot more serious problems with this car like misfiring, surging, etc.
What? And you wonder why someone told you in this very thread that your opinion isn't valued much here?
Dude, stop posting and start reading and LEARNING.
The irony is, you're criticizing someone's "mechanic". The fact of the matter is, based on some of the "advice" I've seen you give here, I doubt your ability to fix a sandwich, much less a car.
Bignate603
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 13,897
- 1
- 0
My thoughts exactly. There are ways to clean dirty injectors. An off car cleaning at a mechanic is typically far cheaper than replacement.
Plz, shut the fuck up asshole, my advice is sound and nobody is going to disagree with me even though I know you're looking for a reason to disagree with me.
Oh and I'll say it again. INFLATE YOUR TIRES TO SIDEWALL! OOOO makes you mad doesn't it? Hey, why don't you just counteract what I say by UNDERINFLATING YOUR TIRES! Idiot..
Ok.. well it isn't always cheaper believe it or not but sure you can do off car cleaning. Sometimes the filter in the fuel injector gets clogged though and simply doing a cleaning isn't going to fix that if the filter screen is clogged with crap which is why some people do a rebuild of their injectors.
Bignate603
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 13,897
- 1
- 0
You're being juvenile. Cleaning injectors is incredibly common and can save you a ton of money. You completely missed that. Usually the people here would just bring up the fact that you forgot to mention cleaning, but with your track record you get a bit stronger reaction.
When you're giving someone advice about something that could end up costing them a ton of money you should make sure you're right.
By the way, bringing up the tire thread where the vast majority of people very strongly disagreed with you is going to make everyone even less likely to agree with you now.
If you're getting large amounts of crud into the injectors that the solvents can't bust loose or dissolve you've got something seriously wrong with your fuel filter. Usually the junk in the fuel system between the fuel filter and the engine can be dealt with in off the car cleaning.
Considering the cost of new injectors and the high success rate of cleaning them it's well worth it to give cleaning a shot. For his car he's looking at probably $50 an injector.
Wow, you really are dense.
You said:
This is 100% wrong. That's not the only way to clean injectors, and in the OP's case, it makes absolutely ZERO sense. A brand-new injector for his car is in the 40-ish dollar range. Good luck getting someone to remove them all, rebuild them (if they can all be cleaned/rebuilt) and re-install them for much less than just replacing them. If you're going to the trouble of removing them, it makes more sense to put new ones in.
Plus, the main reason your "advice" is incorrect is, the OP obviously isn't someone who can/will do this type of work. So he's going to have to pay someone to do it. If he could remove his own injectors and take them somewhere to be cleaned, then I might agree, but with the labor involved to clean them off the car, I'd just replace them IF it came to that.
You can most certainly clean them ON the car, and I've personally done and seen this method work wonders for injector flow.
So no, your advice isn't sound, and it's very obviously not based on anything you've done yourself or you'd know that.
Geez, give a kid access to Google and he thinks he can fix anyone's car.
Oh, and I don't recall the "tire thread", and don't remember if I posted in it or not, but it's a safe bet that you were wrong with whatever you posted there, too. And I don't know what it was about, but for the record, you should inflate your tires to whatever your CAR manufacturer's specs are, not what's on the tire. That's what any car is designed for.
Bignate603
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 13,897
- 1
- 0
On rockauto I saw the injectors for the Taurus going for $43 min for rebuilt ones. If he took it into a shop I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up paying more like $60 per injector. $360 is pretty steep when a cleaning would probably work more than 9 times out of 10.
I thought I saw brand new Motorcraft injectors for 43.79 on Rock. p/n CM5130. Don't know if that's his specific engine, but it's the most common one. There also was a Motorcraft for 55 but it was year-specific.
Off-car cleanings I've seen run anywhere from 16-20 bucks each if you bring/ship them the injector. To each his own, but for only 23 more each, I'd just buy new ones. That way you KNOW you have good stuff. Plus Motorcraft parts have a 12/12 warranty. Buy 'em, have them off and on in the same day, rather than sending them out somewhere.
Personally, though, I'd clean them on the car before I did anything, and replace the fuel filter. IF this is even the problem to begin with.
Off-car cleanings I've seen run anywhere from 16-20 bucks each if you bring/ship them the injector. To each his own, but for only 23 more each, I'd just buy new ones. That way you KNOW you have good stuff. Plus Motorcraft parts have a 12/12 warranty. Buy 'em, have them off and on in the same day, rather than sending them out somewhere.
Personally, though, I'd clean them on the car before I did anything, and replace the fuel filter. IF this is even the problem to begin with.
Not always, my friend's car (which is a car my family gave to him btw) had a dirty injector and instead of buying new ones, he just bought used ones off ebay. The car was like an '88 Volvo station wagon and the reason why the injectors were dirty was because the car sat for many times for a really long time and eventually the injectors got clogged and caused the car to misfire and all this crap. ANYWAYS I was saying that it probably WASN'T the injectors but even if I was, all you idiots had to do was suggest off car cleaning and I probably would've said "that's fine if you can do it for a decent price".
Yeah 100% wrong! In no other situation could my advice POSSIBLY APPLY TO HIM OR ANYONE ELSE! :disgust: First of all, not everybody is going to want to do on car cleaning and I don't care that it worked for you, in my opinion it not only doesn't do enough but it can damage stuff internally as well. If you're going to deal with the injector issue, you mind as well do them thoroughly and it's not like my suggestion is the very worst idea out there. You've got your panties WAYYY up in a bunch.
Sorry if I offended you because I didn't mention your or anybody elses idea...
Following things you can do for an injector:
Fuel treatment (don't believe it works, tried it myself never had good results)
On car cleaning
Off car cleaning
Rebuilding
Buying used ones
Buying rebuilt ones
Buying new ones
There, ya happy? Idiot..
Bignate603
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 13,897
- 1
- 0
I just double checked. You're right a rebuild is $28, new motorcraft is $44. Getting that through a mechanic would still bump up the price noticeably.
I think I paid less than $200 total for removal, cleaning, and reinstallation. Worked like a charm for me, the misfire went away. He may have cut me a deal though because I was having him do some other work for me at the same time.
Yes, you were 100% wrong, because you said what you did. "in order to clean the injectors, you have to remove them...blah, blah, blah".
That was wrong. You DON'T have to remove them. You CAN, but you don't HAVE to.
And we're not talking about "Anyone Else". We're talking about OP's 2000 Ford Taurus. What your friend did to a freaking 1988 Volvo is irrelevant. Injectors have come a LONG way since then, and so have the cleaners.
Here's what most folks here have a problem with:
That's the problem. YOUR opinion is very obviously not based on ANY significant amount of training, schooling, or personal experience as a professional working on cars.
Yet you're going to come here and argue with people who have all of those things. That "it can damage stuff internally" crap is just that...crap. I've cleaned THOUSANDS of injectors on the car and NEVER had one be damaged from it. I've certainly had some that on-car cleaning didn't fix the problem, but never seen one get damaged.
So again, quit crying and calling names, and READ. LEARN. You acted like you were some kind of authority with that "in order to clean the injectors....." crap, and then whined and called names when I called you out about that not being the only way to do it. There are lots of people here who know a lot more about car repair and how they work than you do. You could learn much by pushing the keyboard away and just clicking the mouse and reading.
Yep, oftentimes you can get a break on further work when the mechanic is already tearing things apart under the hood. Overlapping labor times, and such.
For 200 bucks, I'd say go for it, but I'd bet OP can't walk into a shop and get that done for anywhere close to that price. Never know, though, wouldn't hurt to ask.
OP, I'd get the basics on that car checked out and up to snuff. Plugs, wires, fuel filter, air filter, etc. You don't want to start having the expensive stuff diagnosed and replaced, only to find a basic maintenance item was the culprit.
Bignate603
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 13,897
- 1
- 0
Honestly, no. You're still giving advice on things that cost serious money without understanding the options. Looking back at your past posts when people point out things to you it's very rare when you just accept it.
Anyways, for your friend's car that had clogged injectors because it had been sitting, that's EXACTLY why they do cleaning. The solvents used in on the car or off the car cleaning will break up and dissolve all the varnish and things that old gas leaves behind.
You're such a dickhead, get off your high horse asshole. You obviously have nothing to offer and you're just nitpicking to be a douchebag. Nothing I said was completely out of line and when you say that I'm 100% wrong, what you're really saying is that you're a douchebag. It's not like I said the only way to clean the injectors is to put baking soda into your gas tank or some shit. I can see how desperate you are to prove me wrong but fact of the matter is, my advice (wasn't even advising him to clean his injectors ANYWAYS) was sound.
I'm NOT SUGGESTING THE OP DO IT. I made it very clear WHY I don't think the op would need to do it. The only reason I brought it out there was to make the point that I DON'T THINK IT IS THE ISSUE, SO DON'T LOOK THERE.
As for my friend, you're probably right, but at the same time, there are people out there who have clogged injectors, and when I mean clogged I mean clogged at the filter and not necessarily caused by letting the fuel sit causing varnish to develop. Also doing off car cleaning isn't necessarily cheap than rebuilding them yourself which is why I mentioned rebuilding of the injectors.
Anyways this is completely aside the point, I just happened to bring up the point, my post wasn't meant to get all in depth about various things that have to do with cleaning of fuel injectors.
Perhaps you missed the advice I've posted in this thread?
You'd already been called out by someone else about presenting your "advice" as fact before I said anything at all.
Then you came up with this:
Which is not correct. You CAN do it that way, but you don't HAVE to and it's not the only way, nor even the preferred way at most shops. Probably don't need to, either, and you did say that probably wasn't the issue, no doubt. Not sound advice unless you give all the options. I don't know of many (or any, for that matter) shops that would go straight to removing the injectors if they DID need cleaning, without trying to do it on the car first. Even the manufacturer doesn't recommend doing it that way.
Then you came up with the gem of
Again....your opinion based on WHAT? Have you done this type of work for decades for a living? Have you been to community college or tech school to learn about it? Have you been to dozens of manufacturer training classes? Have you taken the ASE tests? (which are a joke anyway, but some people are impressed by it) Anything?
Or do you just like cars and think you know a lot about them because you've changed your oil and plugs a few times?
There's nothing wrong with that. We've all been there...everyone who works as a mechanic started off that way. Lots of us thought we knew it all, long before we did. Especially when we were teenagers.
Anyone can keep spouting off possibilities of things that are wrong, and eventually they'd get it fixed.
The point is, nobody is trying to get on a 'high horse' with you, but it's clear to everyone else here that knows what they're doing that you have a lot to learn. And again, there's nothing wrong with that, but you don't need to be trying to act like you're some guru mechanic before you actually ARE. That tends to piss off the other people who are also trying to help and who actually have the EXPERIENCE and TRAINING to do so, especially when they have to also have a side argument with people like you in addition to trying to help the OP.
I don't know everything about cars. I do know more than the vast majority of the population. I don't respond to many threads, partly because I don't come here that much anymore (due to people like you) and because when I don't have experience with a particular vehicle and there's someone else posting who seems to......I DON'T BOTHER CLUTTERING UP THE THREAD WITH GENERAL ADVICE that I just got by Googling.
In other words, if I don't know, I don't respond. Any decent mechanic can give you general advice about most any car, but if someone who already has specific knowledge about a topic, why bother?
Now, try reading this and learning, as I've advised you to do previously, before you come back again and start calling me names.
WHICH MANUFACTURER? Because when reading my Lexus Service Manual (from the dealership) it specifically says in order to test the injectors for efficacy, you have to remove them and then create this whole tubing system with the existing fuel injection system in order to test them (it's quite long). So if you've already got the injectors OUT, mind as well do a full cleaning. AGAIN the injectors were just an off handed suggestion, if I truly believed the op needed to do this, I'd list all of the things he COULD do and the ones I think he should do. You act like my advice is second hand, or shadetree shit and it isn't but from the sound of it, YOU'RE the one with the shadetree advice!
Exactly. And there are tests you can do to test injectors, while the engine is running. Pulse width check, etc. Been around for years and years. Removing them is like you said, the absolute LAST step in diagnosing the problem.
Thanks all again for the responses, I forgot to mention that for the last 2 fillups I've done on my car I added a fuel injector cleaner additive, but anyways I'm going to wait till next refuel to see how many miles I end up with now, Usually its an abysmal 200 miles on around 15-16 gallon fillup.
If I dont notice any improvements I will proceed to getting some diagnostics run, this car on paper says 18 MPG city and 26 HGHWAY, lets say since my car is not new it should do 14 city and 22 hghway, that would be around 20MPG on average! so I'm sure something is definitely wrong with 12-13 MPG average, around 30% more gas is being consumed.
And so far when I turn that key it barely even cranks, starts up instantly after being parked for over a day on a cold day.
Hopefully thats the end of it.
If I dont notice any improvements I will proceed to getting some diagnostics run, this car on paper says 18 MPG city and 26 HGHWAY, lets say since my car is not new it should do 14 city and 22 hghway, that would be around 20MPG on average! so I'm sure something is definitely wrong with 12-13 MPG average, around 30% more gas is being consumed.
And so far when I turn that key it barely even cranks, starts up instantly after being parked for over a day on a cold day.
Hopefully thats the end of it.
LTC8K6
Lifer
- Mar 10, 2004
- 28,520
- 1,575
- 126
FYI, MY 1995 Taurus 3.8L still meets it's original EPA mileage ratings, not the revised downward ones. It's been well maintained, though.
My last long highway run was just under 29mpg using the fillup method. That was on I-40 using the cruise control with the A/C running.
My last long highway run was just under 29mpg using the fillup method. That was on I-40 using the cruise control with the A/C running.
exdeath
Lifer
- Jan 29, 2004
- 13,679
- 10
- 81
Why are you fixated on the injectors? You can get them checked on a scope without removing them. A current clamp on the driver wire will show the mechanical movement as an inductive "dent" in the current ramp and if you see that moving around with respect to the current ramp (should stay relatively stable and open around 1/3 of peak current) you know they are sticking or not opening/closing consistently. Using a scan tool to check LTFT (long term fuel trim) would show less than 1.0 up to a min of around 0.75 before setting off the light, if there was excessive leakage.
Very unlikely you have injectors that dirty on a 2000 vehicle unless you leave the car sitting for months at a time and let the gas expire. There is a filter screen in the tank at the pump inlet, a main filter in the line, sometimes a secondary micro particle filter at the rail, and individual screens in each injector.
If that mechanic was able to help you start it right away and offered to fix it for $120, it's something simple like a coolant temp sensor. That's assuming the cold start and mileage problems are related.
If you are getting extremely and impossibly poor mileage (eg: 10 on a car that should get 30) then that is far too much enrichment for it to be an engine problem with a sensor or injectors if it's a case of "runs and accelerates fine otherwise". The engine computer operates in a narrow range near ideal air/fuel ratio. The assorted sensors and adjustments are merely TRIM centered about that ratio, the computer won't go very high above or below it, and will fall back to fail safe operation and flag a code before it allows a sensor to drift it that far.
The primitive needs of the mechanical engine don't just disappear because there is a computer in the picture. Common sense should tell you the engine wouldn't run at all or at the very least "not run perfectly fine other than X" if it was mysteriously consuming 3 or more times the fuel (from 30 to 10 = using 3x the fuel = ~5:1 AFR = not going to happen); you would definately experience stumbling or no/rough running or something if your lost fuel economy was being dumped through the injectors. I'd look to something else like the torque converter for your mileage issues.
Very unlikely you have injectors that dirty on a 2000 vehicle unless you leave the car sitting for months at a time and let the gas expire. There is a filter screen in the tank at the pump inlet, a main filter in the line, sometimes a secondary micro particle filter at the rail, and individual screens in each injector.
If that mechanic was able to help you start it right away and offered to fix it for $120, it's something simple like a coolant temp sensor. That's assuming the cold start and mileage problems are related.
If you are getting extremely and impossibly poor mileage (eg: 10 on a car that should get 30) then that is far too much enrichment for it to be an engine problem with a sensor or injectors if it's a case of "runs and accelerates fine otherwise". The engine computer operates in a narrow range near ideal air/fuel ratio. The assorted sensors and adjustments are merely TRIM centered about that ratio, the computer won't go very high above or below it, and will fall back to fail safe operation and flag a code before it allows a sensor to drift it that far.
The primitive needs of the mechanical engine don't just disappear because there is a computer in the picture. Common sense should tell you the engine wouldn't run at all or at the very least "not run perfectly fine other than X" if it was mysteriously consuming 3 or more times the fuel (from 30 to 10 = using 3x the fuel = ~5:1 AFR = not going to happen); you would definately experience stumbling or no/rough running or something if your lost fuel economy was being dumped through the injectors. I'd look to something else like the torque converter for your mileage issues.
Folks, a mechanic used a scan tool on the car computer and tells me 2 o2 sensors are faulty -- not stable readings, quoted me at $350 for 4 motorcraft sensors, labor and free fuel injector cleaning (worth $150 according to him).
Im glad I have something to focus on, which I hope is the main reason I have terrible mileage, Now about that price.... hmmm, Am I right to think I can purchase 4 aftermarket sensors for $30 or so each + $30 labor ($150 Total) may be a better deal?
Some input please, thanks!
Im glad I have something to focus on, which I hope is the main reason I have terrible mileage, Now about that price.... hmmm, Am I right to think I can purchase 4 aftermarket sensors for $30 or so each + $30 labor ($150 Total) may be a better deal?
Some input please, thanks!
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