2 Questions about PC Power Supply comparisons, and their viability in my PC

fgbowen

Junior Member
Apr 3, 2013
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my email for answers - fgbowen (at) yahoo (dot) com

1. Am I going to FRY my PC if I exchange my now defunct Power Supply with "Theirs" (listed below).

Theirs: 300W
Mine: 220W

Theirs: +3.3V, 12A
Mine: + 3.3V, 16A (!!!)

Theirs: +5V, 14A
Mine: +5.08V, 15A

Theirs: +12V, 15A
Mine: +12V, 16A

Theirs: -12V, 0.3A (Same as)
Mine: -12V, 0.3A (Same as)

Theirs: +5VSB, 2A
Mine: +5.08VSB, 2A

2. I would like to get some sort-of static releasing pad to place below my PC - something that will carry the static AWAY from my PC. Where could I get such a Pad?

Running: HP 5710 Pav. Slimline
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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my email for answers - fgbowen (at) yahoo (dot) com

1. Am I going to FRY my PC if I exchange my now defunct Power Supply with "Theirs" (listed below).

Power and current ratings only spec the maximum current any given voltage rail is capable of supplying under load. As long as your voltage ratings are accurate and within normal ranges, you won't fry your machine by installing a PSU that is capable of providing more current than the system requires.

That said, something is way out of whack with the specs you quote. Power = Voltage x Amperes. The total power a PSU is capable of supplying is the sum of all of those with some overhead to account for less than 100% efficiency.

Theirs: 300W
Mine: 220W

Theirs: +3.3V, 12A = 39.6 W
Mine: + 3.3V, 16A = 52.8 W

Theirs: +5V, 14A = 70 W
Mine: +5.08V, 15A = 71.2 W

Theirs: +12V, 15A = 180 W
Mine: +12V, 16A = 192 W

Theirs: -12V, 0.3A = 3.6 W
Mine: -12V, 0.3A = 3.6 W

Theirs: +5VSB, 2A = 10 W
Mine: +5.08VSB, 2A = 10.16 W

Totals:

Theirs: 303.2 W
Yours: 329.76 W

PSU power ratings are only as reliable as the manufacturer is about the accuracy of their specs, and nothing about the specs for your PSU comes close to reliable info. The PSU's in almost all "department store" computer brands (HP, Dell, etc.) are minimal, at best, for the machines as they come out of the box and undesized if you intend to add any power hungry devices such as a high performance vid card or extra drives.

If you don't have a heavy duty CPU, and/or don't intend to push your machine with extra hardware, almost any PSU rated at 400 W or more from a reliable manufacturer should work very well for a long time.

2. I would like to get some sort-of static releasing pad to place below my PC - something that will carry the static AWAY from my PC. Where could I get such a Pad?

Running: HP 5710 Pav. Slimline

You won't gain much from putting a static pad under your machine. They may be useful if you're working on your motherboard out of the case, but unless the third (ground) lug in your wall plug isn't connected, the case, itself, is grounded and acts as a shield from airborne static charges (lightning, etc.), and it won't help block spikes on any cables connected to the machine. A surge protector or UPS on your power cable will help that, and if you really need it, you can get protection for your network and/or phone connections, as well.
 

fgbowen

Junior Member
Apr 3, 2013
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Great info - and I appreciate your effort.

1. If I understood correctly - (maybe I didn't) - the new PSU I bought looks like it is a better one than the one I HAD (Generally speaking), because the total turned out to be 303.2, which is closer to 300 than 329 is to 220 - is that correct?

2. Thanks for the info on the static pad - I understand.

3. No, I do not plan on adding anything to my PC. I have had an
external HD (500 gig for back-up) hooked up to it. Is that what may have caused my original PSU to go out? (being drained from the Ex-HD?)
 

fgbowen

Junior Member
Apr 3, 2013
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One more -

Should I buy an external POWERED USB port? ... instead of relying on power from my internal PSU to support the external HD I use for back-up?
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Great info - and I appreciate your effort.

1. If I understood correctly - (maybe I didn't) - the new PSU I bought looks like it is a better one than the one I HAD (Generally speaking), because the total turned out to be 303.2, which is closer to 300 than 329 is to 220 - is that correct?

2. Thanks for the info on the static pad - I understand.

3. No, I do not plan on adding anything to my PC. I have had an
external HD (500 gig for back-up) hooked up to it. Is that what may have caused my original PSU to go out? (being drained from the Ex-HD?)

1. I can't comment on any PSU without knowing the make and model. You can search Google for the exact model number "in quotes" with words like quality, reliability, review, etc., to see if there are known problems with them. For current models, you can also search vendors' sites for user comments. I particularly like the user evals on Newegg because they don't filter out negative comments.

2. YW. :cool:

3. If the external drive has its own power supply (wall wart, etc.), then no, it wouldn't draw significant power from your PSU. If it doesn't have its own power supply, and it's pushing your PSU beyond its limits, it makes my previous point that the PSU's in "department store" brands of computers are woefully inadequate. However, it would probably just cause such an underpowered supply to current limit or shut down, not to fail catastrophically.

You say almost any unit 400W or more...

Is the 300 I bought alright for now?

If it starts up, and it doesn't shut down, or worse yet, smoke :eek: you should be OK. I don't know what you paid for your PSU, but if it's new, and you can still return it, you may want to look at the first three for $50 on this page on Newegg.com. Antec and Thermaltake are known brands. Rosewill is Newegg's in house brand. The Rosewill drive on the page has a $10 mail in rebate so it would be even less.

I haven't checked out these specific models so, as I mentioned, check them out before you buy, starting with the user comments on Newegg.

One more -

Should I buy an external POWERED USB port? ... instead of relying on power from my internal PSU to support the external HD I use for back-up?

That shouldn't be necessary if you're connecting your external drive directly to a USB port on your machine, assuming the port meets the USB power spec. Always, if you're talking about using a multi-port USB hub, and your external drive doesn't have it's own power supply.

The power spec for each USB port is 0.5 A (500 mA) per port. When you connect an unpowered USB hub to a single USB port, that current is shared between them. That's OK if all you want to connect to it is a mouse and a couple of flash drives, but it won't deliver the full rated current to all ports at once so you couldn't expect it to power a couple of unpowered external drives that require enough power to spin motors.

For example, a four port expander should have a power supply capable of providing at least 4 x 0.5 A = 2.0 A.
 
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westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
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Is the 300 I bought alright for now?
Two supplies are measuring watts differently. As you see, yours with less watts actually provide more current. If your supply was measuring watts the same way that 'Theirs' was measuring it, then your supply is probably a 320 watt supply.

Selecting a supply using watts is why so many 'need' 600 watt supplies. Only relevant is current for each voltage.

Nothing in a supply can (should) damage the load. Too little power never damaged electronics. If a supply is too small, then a computer is unstable (crashes) or shuts off. No hardware damage. Normal is for a supply to be undersized and the computer still boots. Meanwhile, a meter, properly used, could identify insufficient power.


Anti-static pads are electrical conductors. Static electricity is eliminated when charges on fingers are connected to other charges beneath the feet. Assume your computer is connected to a safety ground or surge protector. If static charged fingers touch semiconductors, then the path to charges beneath feet is still destructive through that semiconductor.

Safety ground or a protector does not avert that destructive path. Anti-static protection is about discharging the body before your fingers touch any electronics.

We install an anti-static mat on the table. And wire it to a mat on the floor. Then any hand that touches a table top or computer chassis discharges body static. Then no static gets generated.

Anti-static mat accomplishes two tasks. 1) Discharge your hand to charges beneath the feet if connected (even many tables will make that connection). 2) Does not create static charges when moving an item across the table.

Safety ground or a surge protector does not avert the creation of static charges. And may not discharge static on a safe path not through semiconductors.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
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Too little power can cause lots of damage. I think you are somewhat confused. Too little power will cause a fluctuation in power levels. When this happens you will get not enough power for the RAM and cause the spin of the hard drive to be irratic. This will cause data loss and file curruption on the hard drive or outright Head Crashes as the hard drive read/write heads become irratic and start scraping the disks.

A fairly low power hungry computer can easily run with a lot less power. Just hook up a power meter to some of these low power computers used for HTPC's. I am talking about the ones with no video cards that can literally run on a 150-200 watt power supply.

A lot of people use external USB power supplies to charge things like Cell Phones or Computer mouse, or similar device.

http://assassinhtpcblog.com/?p=106
This link shows a HTPC playing 1080p at about 68 watts. This is probably under ideal conditions using a specific low power CPU.

Most motherboards are designed to supply more power and power more ports than you realize. Disabling some of these things may lead to lower power usage and longer battery life for laptops. Some higher end motherboards will use more power than you need because they are designed with overclocking and video cards in mind.
 
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VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,352
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Too little power never damaged electronics. If a supply is too small, then a computer is unstable (crashes) or shuts off. No hardware damage.
If the PSU is underpowered, then the load could cause it's voltage regulation to be off, and lower the voltage, thus causing the load(s) to draw more current, overheat, and burn out.

You clearly can cause hardware damage from an under-specced PSU that doesn't have the proper safety mechanisms implemented. (Like simply shutting off when overloaded.)
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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For your system to be running with that PSU, just about anything ATX12V, honestly rated at 300W would suffice, but if you pick something low end you may find the PSU dies and risks hardware, even if it takes 3 years for it to happen. However your slimline HP system seems to use a proprietary form factor PSU, or at least a form factor with low popularity.

There is no point to a static mat under a PC since the case is earth grounded through the PSU power cord, assuming proper AC wiring in your (home), BUT if you find yourself building up a static charge before coming in contact with the system, say to plug in a USB flash drive or use the mouse, you might put an anti-static mat on your desk away from the computer instead.
 
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westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
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If the PSU is underpowered, then the load could cause it's voltage regulation to be off, and lower the voltage, thus causing the load(s) to draw more current, overheat, and burn out.
A popular myth learned from hearsay. However designer, instead, learn facts from datasheets and the appropriate numbers.

Where is a semiconductor that draws more current with lower voltage? That is damaged by lower voltage? Please cite its part number and datasheet.

Meanwhile, view some spec numbers. An industry standard 74HCxx series digital logic. Acceptable voltage is anywhere from 7 volts to -0.5:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet2/d/0jlueuzgy7xfh1cxw8ucuasqi1yy.pdf

Or an older and less robust 4000 series. -0.5 volts to as high as 20 volts:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/208/108514_DS.pdf

What happens when 5 volts drops? No hardware damage. The numbers are blunt. Low voltage causing damage comes from speculation - without numbers.

How does a disk drive learn that power is powering off? Does it get a message from the CPU or OS? Of course not. No command for 'power off' exists. All disk drives (even when some disk drives moved heads with motor oil) learn about power off only when and because voltage drops. If drives worked that way even that long ago, then why do so many know something different? Hearsay.

Will low voltage cause data loss, file corruption or outright head crashes? If yes, then normal power off also causes data loss, file corruption or outright head crashes. Because low voltage or power off is same to every disk drive. In all cases, a drive works normally. Or prepares for power loss because voltage is slightly lower. As was true long before the IBM PC existed.

A typical USB port either provides anything up to full power (2.5 watts) as Harvey notes. Or that USB port declares a surge and cuts off power. Why does "up to 2.5 watts" cause concern for a 150 or 200 watt PSU? 68 watts is more typical of a computer that may also need a 250 watt supply for the rare and sudden high power demand. Kill-A-Watt is an essential tool because it provides numbers. A USB device draws 2.5 watts or less without or without an external powered hub.


Static electricity is charges that exist on both sides of a shoe. Either charges in the body are connected to charges beneath the shoe. Or those charges are connected destructively via electronics. In every case, static electricity is about how charges in a body discharge (connect to) charges on the floor.

1) Use anti-static mats so that static charges are not created. 2) Connect anti-static mats to charges beneath shoes to discharge static. Also accomplished with anti-static wrist straps. Those straps and anti-static mats are used routinely in facilities that cannot risk static damage.

In every case, static protection is about that current not passing through electronics. Protection means a connection from fingers to charges on the floor is via something not harmed (ie from a wrist strap or table top anti-static mat to a mat underneath the feet).
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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Where is a semiconductor that draws more current with lower voltage? That is damaged by lower voltage? Please cite its part number and datasheet.

In any voltage regulated switching supply circuit, lower input voltage requires higher current. Granted, it would take a large change in input voltage to be much of a problem, generally an ATX PSU "should" shut down long before then.

What happens when 5 volts drops? No hardware damage. The numbers are blunt. Low voltage causing damage comes from speculation - without numbers.

What ends up happening is as the PSU struggles to supply high enough voltage, the ripple increases. You may actually have a higher ripple voltage from a lower average voltage.

How does a disk drive learn that power is powering off? Does it get a message from the CPU or OS? Of course not. No command for 'power off' exists.

Actually there is a command for a lower power state, to power off the spindle motor, but that doesn't seem relevant to the topic.

All disk drives (even when some disk drives moved heads with motor oil) learn about power off only when and because voltage drops. If drives worked that way even that long ago, then why do so many know something different? Hearsay.

Sort-of. It's not so much the drop as it is the inability to keep running due to insufficient voltage. A voltage drop state change would require a measurement of input voltage.

Will low voltage cause data loss, file corruption or outright head crashes? If yes, then normal power off also causes data loss, file corruption or outright head crashes.

Actually yes low voltage will definitely cause data loss and/or file, filesystem corruption if the heads are writing or there's still data in the HDD cache or system memory waiting to be written. The drive has no ability to "finish up" what it is doing, no power reserve. Only in the case of no pending writes would there be no data loss with an abrupt power loss or decrease in voltage below the minimum threshold needed for operation.


Because low voltage or power off is same to every disk drive. In all cases, a drive works normally. Or prepares for power loss because voltage is slightly lower. As was true long before the IBM PC existed.

A drive prepares for nothing related to power loss beyond the mechanical action of parking or retracting the heads so they don't crash into the platter once it can't maintain enough RPM to float them.

A typical USB port either provides anything up to full power (2.5 watts) as Harvey notes. Or that USB port declares a surge and cuts off power. Why does "up to 2.5 watts" cause concern for a 150 or 200 watt PSU?

It can be a problem if those USB ports are powered by the 5VSB rail, if the low wattage PSU is built on a tight component budget (which they usually are) and so it has poor ability to keep the 5VSB cool enough when the system (and fan) is off so that degrades the components in the 5VSB subcircuit. Once that subcircuit is degraded it can be a problem when the PC is on as well as off.

Surges on USB are generally handled by polyfuses, not low voltage detection circuitry.
 

westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
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What does all that mean for the OP? An undersized power supply causes no hardware damage. None. Sometimes, an undersized or defective supply will still boot a computer.

Watts are a poor number for selecting a supply. Since his 220 watt supply is also a 320 watt supply - depending on where and how those watts are calculated. Useful numbers are amps for each voltage.

Is a supply sufficient? Best and only way to answer is to install the supply and measure with a multimeter. Measurements confirm a supply does what its spec numbers suggest.

Extra load from another disk caused no PSU failure. Again, a maximum load (all outputs shorted) does not damage any properly designed PSU. A tiny load from a new drive clearly causes no PSU damage.

Most failures are due to manufacturing defects that remain unknown until a failure occurs; even years later.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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The problem seems to be one of too much corner cutting. Taking a closer look at the system specs, wattage does not seem to be much of a concern but rather how it is integrated into the particular system design.

It was a slimline system with a potentially proprietary (but hopefully TFX form factor) PSU that had inferior airflow. The motherboard itself, besides having some solid capacitors, looks otherwise as low end as can be with minimal capacitance in general.

http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsuppor...t.jsp?objectID=c02627981&prodSeriesId=5035352

I would speculate that this put a lot of ripple on the power rails, with the peaks causing an additional power consumption. True the issue isn't so much the actual wattage a replacement is capable of, as the whole system looks to me like it might consume under 100W peak and closer to 45W at idle, but it does appear as though a replacement PSU ought to have more capacitance and more heat resistant capacitors, or perhaps the heat buildup caused a switching transistor to overheat.

Ultimately to come closer to this assumption an autopsy of the PSU would help, and a comparative assessment of any potential replacement. Unfortunately we don't even have a model # for the replacement to get some idea if it is from a manufacturer known for quality units and that honestly rates their PSU.

Since I don't think there are any PSU in that (case) size rated for less current than the system needs, ultimately my advice would be to buy the highest quality PSU available in that form factor regardless of what the wattage rating is, so long as it is ATX12V (oops, I mean TFX12V).

Suitable candidates (assuming the case can fit a standard TFX form factor PSU) would be something like a FSP300-60GHT, or one of these Seasonics: http://www.seasonicusa.com/tfx.htm , maybe this one since it's significantly lower priced than the others (also $45 on Amazon) - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151090
http://www.amazon.com/Seasonic-SS-30.../dp/B004JUVNVC
even better this one for being 80+Gold efficiency rated but at almost twice the price it seems too expensive for what it is - http://www.amazon.com/Seasonic-SS-35.../dp/B009QX5U3E
 
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westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
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Taking a closer look at the system specs, wattage does not seem to be much of a concern but rather how it is integrated into the particular system design.
Hooey that contradicts basic electrical concepts.

Computers designed by engineers provide sufficient power: sufficient current on each voltage. That original supply was more than sufficient. How is a supply 'integrated'? It's not. Numbers originally posted by fgbowen define what really matters.

A ripple claim had no numbers. Common when information is only from subjective reasoning. Knowledge means 'too much ripple' was defined with a number. Many techs have no idea how to even measure ripple voltage let alone know what it is. Also irrelevant to the OP's questions.

What really happens during an excessive load? Other factors take charge including foldback current limiting. Why was current limiting ignored? Many techs have no idea what foldback current limiting is. Nor why excessive loading does not create excessive ripple voltage. First one must know how much ripple is excessive.

Unfortunately some even heard that low voltage causes semiconductor damage. When even manufacturer numbers say otherwise.

Computers designed by engineers have insufficient airflow? Nonsense. A properly designed machine must work OK even in a 100 degree F room. Airflow at 70 degrees is more than sufficient since airflow must be sufficient even at 100 degrees.

Of course, if airflow was insufficient, then the claim provided a number that defines 'insufficient airflow'. No number provided for one obvious reason. Speculation. Nobody said how many CFMs currently exist. How can anyone know that system has 'insufficient airflow' without knowing existing CFMs? Wild speculation. Systems designed by engineers have more than sufficient airflow.

If capacitors are undersized, then numbers were posted to define insufficient and sufficient capacitance. Nobody provided a number for existing capacitors. How does he know that capacitance is insufficient? Speculation combined with subjective reasoning somehow becomes knowledge.

And that is the point. Separate wild speculation from engineering facts. Wild speculation just knows something subjectively - no numbers. As if a feeling becomes truth. Knowledge is provided with the numbers.

What is a quality supply? Highly recommended name? Costs more? First indication is a PSU provided with a long list of manufacturer specification numbers in writing. A PSU need not meet any ATX standards. That requirement is the responsibility of a system assembler, integrator, or repairman. If a PSU does not have at least one full page of specs, then suspect a supply does not provide all functions required by ATX standards. The PSU manufacturer meets ATX requirements when he says so in writing.

Selecting a supply without spec numbers is like listening to recommendations made subjectively without numbers. Due to hearsay, inferior supplies can be dumped into the domestic market. The manufacturer need not meet ATX standards if not stated in writing with each supply.

Many use visual inspection as if that defines a quality circuit. Nonsense. First requirement for any quality supply: its manufacturer claims in writing to meet or exceed each ATX requirement. With numbers.
 

mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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Hooey that contradicts basic electrical concepts.

Computers designed by engineers provide sufficient power: sufficient current on each voltage. That original supply was more than sufficient. How is a supply 'integrated'? It's not. Numbers originally posted by fgbowen define what really matters.

Not within the real world context of what wattage and currents are available in existing PSU, vs what the specific system in question needs. The original supply is rated in particular situations including ambient temperature, and that only for the period of the warranty. MTBF figures fly out the window when applied to actual component lifespan.

The numbers mean very, very little. The numbers that actually matter are what the system actually uses, and what specific discrete component(s) in the power supply failed, since we can be fairly confident it was not the currents or it would not have lasted until now. In the end, neither we or the OP can pick a number for every power rail, we're not designing the PSU from scratch but instead the choices are among what is available in the market, whether any (or all) available PSU meet the numbers the system needs, not necessarily are equal to those of the prior PSU.

A ripple claim had no numbers. Common when information is only from subjective reasoning. Knowledge means 'too much ripple' was defined with a number. Many techs have no idea how to even measure ripple voltage let alone know what it is. Also irrelevant to the OP's questions.

Quite relevant if excessive ripple caused accelerated aging of capacitors in the PSU. Perhaps you do not frequently encounter PSU that fail for this reason? It is the number one failure mode of budgetized power supplies within a period after early infant mortality yet before the fan was expected to fail from # of power-on hours.

What really happens during an excessive load? Other factors take charge including foldback current limiting. Why was current limiting ignored? Many techs have no idea what foldback current limiting is. Nor why excessive loading does not create excessive ripple voltage. First one must know how much ripple is excessive.

In the real world, a power supply rated for (n) amount of current, cannot necessarily sustain this continually even if it is a more conservative figure than only peak rating. At this point one must look at what portion of the supply degrades at any particular current level. In the end, all we really need to see is why the original PSU failed and take measures to not have that happen again, unless it is acceptable that the tour of duty for the replacement be the same as for the original. Some may consider that acceptable but I do not as I don't consider a PSU to be a part that should be considered a wear item that needs replaced within the lifespan of a system.

Unfortunately some even heard that low voltage causes semiconductor damage. When even manufacturer numbers say otherwise.

I have already sufficiently explained why this is possible, that the lower the input voltage on a regulated output subcircuit, the higher the current necessarily has to be. Further, low voltage within the context of a switching power supply generally causes higher ripple voltage. Check power supply review testing if this is doubted. If we can conclude that indeed, higher loading to the point of voltage droop results in higher ripple, as testers do consistently measure with a scope, then we can move on to what higher ripple does.

With higher ripple, you must have a higher average voltage to retain stability because the equipment must not only be stable at the average voltage but also at the low value in the ripple waveform.

Computers designed by engineers have insufficient airflow? Nonsense. A properly designed machine must work OK even in a 100 degree F room. Airflow at 70 degrees is more than sufficient since airflow must be sufficient even at 100 degrees.

Computers are designed by engineers for climate controlled conditions unless explicitly stated otherwise. Instead, engineers are given directions to tailor the system towards lower noise, reduction in number of fans, and in the case of this system, the slim profile. Further, it is a well known fact that a rise in temperature causes a reduction in lifespan and this is what we may be seeing, a system where the PSU ran hotter than same components would in a better ventilated system, and eventually had an earlier failure as a result. Did it last for the warranty period? If so, beancounters have instructed the engineers on the low cost path to make that happen.

Of course, if airflow was insufficient, then the claim provided a number that defines 'insufficient airflow'. No number provided for one obvious reason. Speculation. Nobody said how many CFMs currently exist. How can anyone know that system has 'insufficient airflow' without knowing existing CFMs? Wild speculation. Systems designed by engineers have more than sufficient airflow.

You are suggesting engineers are magical creatures that can do no wrong, nor are subject to design limitations or authoritative directions? Quite the opposite, above all else it's about cost. Engineers would love to use a more robust transistor, higher quality fan, solid capacitors with nearly an order of magnitude longer rated lifespan in a heated environment like they see in a PSU.

If capacitors are undersized, then numbers were posted to define insufficient and sufficient capacitance. Nobody provided a number for existing capacitors. How does he know that capacitance is insufficient? Speculation combined with subjective reasoning somehow becomes knowledge.

We as a community have a marvelous thing today in the internet. There are people out there that tear apart PSU and fix them, and years of data accumulated about capacitor problems resulting from not just faulty electrolyte but poor quality components that can't be extrapolated to meet the same lifespan ratings as quality components. For example you might have two capacitors, both seemingly rated the same at 3,000 hours lifespan at 105C temp, all other specs the same. They might both achieve this, but what if the consumer considers 3,000 hours an unacceptably short lifespan since that is only 125 days of continuous operation? That's where experience comes into play, which sources and formulations of caps are longer lived in the real world conditions of being in a hot running power supply.

And that is the point. Separate wild speculation from engineering facts. Wild speculation just knows something subjectively - no numbers. As if a feeling becomes truth. Knowledge is provided with the numbers.

Speculation is often the shortest course to the goal. Engineering facts would include accumulation of data that seems beyond the abilities of the OP, requiring both equipment and time worth more than the replacement cost of a ~ $40 PSU considering it still has to be repaired or replaced.

What is a quality supply?

In this case, it's any wattage that is available on the market for that particular form factor which is TFX (or whichever form factor) 12V compliant, as all models made are enough for that system config., and one built to have good lifespan. If there were significant system upgrades made then it would be a different matter, but a USB external HDD is not one.

Since I am goal oriented and have already picked my choice of what the best commonly available replacement PSU is, since this type of information bears on the resolution of the problem, I feel there is nothing constructive to come from further debate as we obviously don't have the same agenda.
 
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westom

Senior member
Apr 25, 2009
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The numbers mean very, very little. The numbers that actually matter are what the system actually uses, and what specific discrete component(s) in the power supply failed, since we can be fairly confident it was not the currents or it would not have lasted until now.
More confusing hooey.

We design supplies to work for over 20 years. Supplies used a low ESR and 105 degree C capacitor. So that all loads maximum or minimum) result in the same life expectancy. Your concerns about damage from ripple voltages is obviously nonsense. Because, again, it is subjective. Because no numbers are provided.

Maximum output current may be least stressful. In some cases, a power supply operating at only 50% is most strained. A reality not found in subjective reasoning. But obvious when doing analysis with numbers.

Damage created by lower voltage on any semiconductor part remains an unjustified myth. If low voltage caused semiconductor damage, then numbers from datasheets were posted. No numbers posted for one simple reason. From manufacturer datasheets. Low voltage even down to a negative 0.5 volts causes no damage. Subjective denials posted repeatedly did not contradict this reality.

So where is this part harmed by a lower voltage? An easy answer ... if low voltage causes electronics damage. No part listed because that claim comes from urban legends. Not from datasheets.

Again unexplained is destructive ripple voltage. Not even one number for what is somehow 'harmful'. Where is even one manufacturer spec number that defines low voltage or ripple voltage as destructive? How many times must this be asked? Where are the numbers?

PCs are designed to operate ideally even in a 100 degree F room. Computer techs have seen a computer fail in a 100 degree room. Then somehow know that temperature caused the failure. Meanwhile, temperature can locate a defective power supply before its warranty expires. A PSU (or any computer) that works in a 70 degree room and does not operate in a 100 degree room is defective. And will probably fail months or a year later at 70 degrees.

Engineers do not design for ideal room conditions. But some techs, who routinely ignore numbers, believe that myth. An informed tech even learns what burn-in testing is. Not executing overnight diagnostics. Burn-in testing is running a computer at its hottest and coldest temperatures repeatedly. Because extreme temperatures and extreme temperature changes (as defined even in specs) must never cause a failure.

Is it true that a rise in temperature causes a reduction in lifespan? Yes. And then we add missing numbers. A CPU designed to last 200 years might only work for 190 plus years if operated at high room temperatures. The subjective claim is true only by ignoring numbers. And that is the point. Some post subjective claims because the underlying science and numbers are unknown or ignored.

We even operated a Intel Pentium at over 300 degrees. When hotter, then signal timing changed too much. Then it worked normal again in a 70 degree room. Where is this damage from high temperatures? Exists only when a claim is subjective.

Relevant numbers for the OP were currents for each voltage. A computer designed by engineers means that supply (or equivalent) should be sufficient for the system years from now even with more memory and USB peripherals.

Anyone can confirm that a supply is sufficiently sized by using a multimeter. But again, an answer with numbers. Still undefined are numbers for excessive (destructive) ripple voltage. And what is acceptable. Meanwhile, a PSU with maximum load has ripple voltages well below what might crash a computer ... while causing no hardware damage. Otherwise, the PSU could not output full power and still meet ATX requirements that even define ripple voltage.

How many PSUs have you repaired? By identifying a specific defective part before replacing any part? We did to learn why electronics fail. In some cases, even examined failed silicon under a microscope. In one case, I discovered a manufacturer that was using an optocoupler with insufficient gain. Of course, one can tell us (subjectively?) why power supplies use an optocoupler? In another case, the supply would not reboot. Too many hours of operation caused a bootstrap resistor to fail. Of course, one can tell us what a bootstrap resistor does in a power supply?

We not only designed these things. Also did autopsies to learn why failures happen. Claims of destructive low voltage, ripple voltage, or undersized fans never once appeared as a reason for hardware failure. Those rumored destructive conditions have no numbers. And therefore no credibility.

Important numbers for any PSU means the manufacturer states, in writing, each ATX requirement. Otherwise a PSU need not contain that required function. The original PSU was selected by engineers. Any future PSU can meet or exceed those numbers.

One number that says almost nothing useful is a PSU's wattage. Since the OP's 220 watt supply actually equaled or exceeded power from 'their' 300 watt supply. And as Harvey demonstrated by posting numbers.
 
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mindless1

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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To be honest, I didn't even read your reply because I am confident in my assessment having seen it far too many times. Well I did read the first sentence and no, the average OEM power supply lasts nowhere near 20 years, nor does the average budget/junk PSU at retail. More like 3 years continuous service which is why people commonly buy a 500W+ PSU to power their ~200W system.

This topic isn't about winning at some philosophical debate about good engineering, it's about the OP having a good value replacement PSU. You are attempting to argue some broad expanse that drifts off topic and doesn't "get the job done", even after I gave you a few hints to follow.
 
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