2 months in: Crossfit & Starting Strength

[NAC]

It seems that there are often questions concerning crossfit & starting strength, especially for novices. I want to share my experiences with both two months in.

Background: I'm male, 35, 5'10", 165 pounds. I've worked out on & off since high school, but never heavy, never serious, and often with several months gaps as work/life situation changed. For the past 2 years, I've been working out light at a gym only once a week.

May 30, that changed. I installed a power rack in my garage, and started Starting Strength. Worked out on the weekend and two evenings a week from about 8:30 to 9:30. I didn't do deadlifts or powercleans - first because I didn't have bumper plates or rubber matting, and second because I wanted to iron out my squat form first anyway. As prescribed, I started pretty light.

Starting strength is a very easy program to follow and stay consistent with. You have constant gains, and always know what you need to do. By the end of the month, the gains were just starting to become visible. I feel like I was on the verge of feeling better than I ever have, with more strength, balance, and just being more aware of my body. I highly, highly recommend starting strength.

I only missed a workout when we went on vacation. By July 5, my squat was above body weight - 170, and starting to feel heavy, my press was at 95 lbs, and also starting to feel heavy. My bench was at 130, and I feel I still have some easy gains left in the bench.

I tweaked my back during a squat on July 5, and decided I'm still not comfortable with my form. Also, I wanted to work on deadlifts and learn other exercises too. So I decided to sign up for a Crossfit "Ramp-up" class - 8 sessions, twice a week. I considered paying for a one time training session for $75, but the class was only twice as much for 4 times the sessions. So far I've only attended 3 of the 8 sessions.

I think that stopping Starting Strength after a month to do the Ramp-up Crossfit class was a mistake. Reasons:

• * One of my main goals was to establish the habit of working out regularly and with more intensity. I was establishing that habit, but then changed things to attend the class. Therefore the habit of working out has not yet been ingrained.
  
  * A Crossfit class is NOT the ideal way to learn form. I think the trainer is pretty good. She reviews things at the beginning, and is constantly monitoring everyone during the practices and actual exercises. BUT, There are a huge amount of nuances to the squat exercise and others. You simply can't perfect form in a class of ten after a 5-10 minute practice and a 10-20 minute high intensity workout.
  
  * My experience at the Crossfit affiliate is that intensity gets equal or greater importance as compared to form. And at light weights, it might be ok. I know I'll get arguments about this point. Or people will say it was just the affiliate I was at. But for example, how can anyone possibly learn the thruster movement, which is terribly complex, in 10 minutes, and then go on to do 3*10 high intensity thrusters interspersed with running and to the point of exhaustion. In my opinion, it almost by definition can't be done. During the thrusters session on class 3, I tweaked my wrist which I can still feel a week later as I type.

I clearly have gains yet to make in Starting Strength. So as I knew I would - I will abandon Crossfit style exercises for a few months anyway, to get all the Starting Strength gains. Once I've taxed those gains, I still do hope to do Crossfit type workouts, probably mostly at home. And, when going for intensity I'll be avoiding some exercises and heavy weights - like barbell thrusters


Cliffs:
- Did starting strength for a month. I highly recommend it.
- Made a mistake to switch to a Crossfit "ramp-up" class to learn form.
- I recommend first completing starting strength, before considering Crossfit.
- I can't 100% recommend Crossfit because IMO intensity trumps form, and at heavier weights on some exercises this can lead to injuries.

 

[EvilYoda]

Sounds like you need to find a new box, trainer, or start with 1-on-1's instead of group classes. Intensity is very important for CF, yes, but this is assuming you have already learned the ins and outs of the movements. If the trainer just coached you for a few minutes and started you on the workouts, that's just not right.

SS is a great program, but it's incredibly difficult to make sure you're doing everything correctly if you don't have someone knowledgeable watching you. I started CF after working out regularly and even then I took it incredibly slowly just to make sure I understood each move. Judging by your numbers, you still have a good ways to go in terms of strength development - as your form improves, so will your confidence with heavier weights. I'd definitely suggest some private sessions for you, but keep us updated on what you do regardless.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: NAC
I didn't do deadlifts or powercleans - first because I didn't have bumper plates or rubber matting, and second because I wanted to iron out my squat form first anyway.

Considering that Starting Strength consists of 5 exercises, not doing 2 of them isn't really starting strength

Seriously though, the deadlift and power clean are VERY worthwhile exercises and you should start doing them as soon as you can.

Originally posted by: NAC
A Crossfit class is NOT the ideal way to learn form. I think the trainer is pretty good. She reviews things at the beginning, and is constantly monitoring everyone during the practices and actual exercises. BUT, There are a huge amount of nuances to the squat exercise and others. You simply can't perfect form in a class of ten after a 5-10 minute practice and a 10-20 minute high intensity workout.

* My experience at the Crossfit affiliate is that intensity gets equal or greater importance as compared to form. And at light weights, it might be ok. I know I'll get arguments about this point. Or people will say it was just the affiliate I was at. But for example, how can anyone possibly learn the thruster movement, which is terribly complex, in 10 minutes, and then go on to do 3*10 high intensity thrusters interspersed with running and to the point of exhaustion. In my opinion, it almost by definition can't be done. During the thrusters session on class 3, I tweaked my wrist which I can still feel a week later as I type.

As you said, it sounds like a bad CF affiliate or trainer. By their very definition, "ramp up" and "training" sessions should be entirely about technique and not emphasize intensity much at all. In fact, many CF affiliates completely prohibit any intense workouts for the first few weeks that a newbie joins and instead require them to go to beginner classes tailored solely at learning form. And even when you do start to ramp up the intensity, you should have the weight scaled down enough to prevent injury.

In general, I do agree that doing Starting Strength (or similar routine) before Crossfit is a very good idea. It gets you comfortable with most of the major barbell motions and builds a nice base of strength that lets you be successful in other activities later. If you start directly with Crossfit, you can certainly do so safely, but you'll still need to spend lots of your extra time learning those movements outside of CF workouts and in the end, probably take longer to master everything.

Originally posted by: NAC
And, when going for intensity I'll be avoiding some exercises and heavy weights - like barbell thrusters

Don't avoid exercises, otherwise you'll never learn them and leave gaping holes in your fitness. Instead, devote time to learning the technique for them outside of high intensity workouts and when you feel a little more comfortable, start doing the exercise in a high intensity workout, but scaled down.

 

[Pantlegz]

Crossfit is intense, I had planned on starting working out with it and quickly changed my mind. It's very well rounded and the intensity is what makes it so good, but you have to be willing to push yourself to your limits. That said, if you're not used to working out 4-5 days a week crossfit probably isn't what you're looking for. SS is great for starters, when I start up at the gym in the next few weeks thats what I'll be doing

And I've noticed that most crossfit exercises use are fairly light weight, for me at least, but I'm about 70lbs bigger than you so that might have something to do with it. But if you're in good shape I don't think the weight crossfit uses is all that heavy.

 

[HN]

Originally posted by: Pantlegz1
But if you're in good shape I don't think the weight crossfit uses is all that heavy.

That varies as well. Sure, Fran is only 95lbs, but then everyone once in awhile something like this one a few weeks ago pops up:

21-18-15-12-9-6-3 rep rounds of:
185 pound Front squat
GHD Sit-up

I scaled down to 135lbs and my legs were still on fire for several days after (whereas I'm usually not sore the next day after a workout). 185? F* that

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: HN

Originally posted by: Pantlegz1
But if you're in good shape I don't think the weight crossfit uses is all that heavy.

That varies as well. Sure, Fran is only 95lbs, but then everyone once in awhile something like this one a few weeks ago pops up:

21-18-15-12-9-6-3 rep rounds of:
185 pound Front squat
GHD Sit-up

I scaled down to 135lbs and my legs were still on fire for several days after (whereas I'm usually not sore the next day after a workout). 185? F* that

I think saying the weight used in CF workouts is "light" is a misunderstanding of the goal of those workouts. Unlike SS, strength is not the only goal in CF: we're also trying to build stamina, endurance, speed, agility, etc. Most of those are impossible to do with heavy weights: Fran, for example, would be a very different workout with 135lb thrusters and still more different with 185lb thrusters. The prescribed Fran uses 95lbs to set a certain pace that allows near maximal strain on your metabolic conditioning. Not that doing Fran doesn't develop some strength as well, as noted in this quote from Glassman: "it may intuit well that if you can pull a 250 pound deadlift 21 times coming to the lift at a heart rate of 180 beats per minute, then 500 pounds for a single at a resting heart rate is perhaps manageable."

Finally, for pure strength development, CF includes a "max effort" type workout at least once a week, such as "deadlift 3-3-3-3-3" or "squat 5-5-5-5-5". You're expected to set a new PR on those types of workouts, so you're going as heavy as you possibly can.

 

[Pantlegz]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: HN

Originally posted by: Pantlegz1
But if you're in good shape I don't think the weight crossfit uses is all that heavy.

That varies as well. Sure, Fran is only 95lbs, but then everyone once in awhile something like this one a few weeks ago pops up:

21-18-15-12-9-6-3 rep rounds of:
185 pound Front squat
GHD Sit-up

I scaled down to 135lbs and my legs were still on fire for several days after (whereas I'm usually not sore the next day after a workout). 185? F* that

I think saying the weight used in CF workouts is "light" is a misunderstanding of the goal of those workouts. Unlike SS, strength is not the only goal in CF: we're also trying to build stamina, endurance, speed, agility, etc. Most of those are impossible to do with heavy weights: Fran, for example, would be a very different workout with 135lb thrusters and still more different with 185lb thrusters. The prescribed Fran uses 95lbs to set a certain pace that allows near maximal strain on your metabolic conditioning. Not that doing Fran doesn't develop some strength as well, as noted in this quote from Glassman: "it may intuit well that if you can pull a 250 pound deadlift 21 times coming to the lift at a heart rate of 180 beats per minute, then 500 pounds for a single at a resting heart rate is perhaps manageable."

Finally, for pure strength development, CF includes a "max effort" type workout at least once a week, such as "deadlift 3-3-3-3-3" or "squat 5-5-5-5-5". You're expected to set a new PR on those types of workouts, so you're going as heavy as you possibly can.

I guess my wording was bad.. the weight isn't light but it's not too heavy to be done safely. if you're having issues getting the first few reps of Fran up, crossfit is out of your league. I've done a few of the crossfit exercises and they're no joke, they'll push you beyond your limits.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: HN

Originally posted by: Pantlegz1
But if you're in good shape I don't think the weight crossfit uses is all that heavy.

That varies as well. Sure, Fran is only 95lbs, but then everyone once in awhile something like this one a few weeks ago pops up:

21-18-15-12-9-6-3 rep rounds of:
185 pound Front squat
GHD Sit-up

I scaled down to 135lbs and my legs were still on fire for several days after (whereas I'm usually not sore the next day after a workout). 185? F* that

It also depends on your bodyweight. Pantlegz, you weigh quite a bit more than I do. Some of the weights CF uses for WODs seems a bit heavy and I would definitely have to work up to it. I weight about 160 right now and the workouts are built for men that are a bit bigger than myself.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Pantlegz1
I guess my wording was bad.. the weight isn't light but it's not too heavy to be done safely. if you're having issues getting the first few reps of Fran up, crossfit is out of your league. I've done a few of the crossfit exercises and they're no joke, they'll push you beyond your limits.

I disagree. If the first few reps of Fran are too heavy for you, it's not necessarily time to quit CF, but rather, time to scale the weight down. Every workout in CF is completely scalable to anyone's level. You could do Fran with 65lbs, just the bar, or a broomstick. As long as you do it safely and work your ass off, you'll get fitter, and gradually work your way up to the Rx'd version. In fact, many people who can handle 95lb thrusters should still scale Fran down. The workout is meant to be done fast - well under 10 minutes (CF firebreathers do it in under 3 minutes) - and if you're taking more than that, you should probably use a lighter weight until your strength, endurance and metabolic conditioning improve.

 

[NAC]

Thanks for all the responses so far.

Originally posted by: brikis98
Considering that Starting Strength consists of 5 exercises, not doing 2 of them isn't really starting strength

Point taken. I gotta get to them. Not sure why I was avoiding deadlifts, the basic form seems simpler than the squat.

Originally posted by: brikis98
As you said, it sounds like a bad CF affiliate or trainer. By their very definition, "ramp up" and "training" sessions should be entirely about technique and not emphasize intensity much at all. In fact, many CF affiliates completely prohibit any intense workouts for the first few weeks that a newbie joins and instead require them to go to beginner classes tailored solely at learning form. And even when you do start to ramp up the intensity, you should have the weight scaled down enough to prevent injury.

This is news to me, I'd have much preferred a class like that. Or perhaps one in which the first half is learning/mastering one or two difficult exercises at low intensity, followed by a metcon with running and simpler exercises - pushups, inverted rows, burpees, whatever.

Originally posted by: brikis98
Don't avoid exercises, otherwise you'll never learn them and leave gaping holes in your fitness. Instead, devote time to learning the technique for them outside of high intensity workouts and when you feel a little more comfortable, start doing the exercise in a high intensity workout, but scaled down.

Good point. I don't want to avoid anything, but do want to be a bit cautious.

Of what I know so far regarding thrusters - it seems to me dumbell thrusters can be done safely with low/moderate weight with intensity. The form for them isn't as crucial - it's easier than with a barbell, and the delicate wrist is not at risk. And it seems to me that a front squat and push press at high weight can give you all the benefits of a high weight barbell thruster. So concerning this one exercise, I don't see the point of a barbell thruster.

But in theory, I definitely agree one shouldn't pick & choose exercises

Originally posted by: Pantlegz1
Crossfit is intense, I had planned on starting working out with it and quickly changed my mind. It's very well rounded and the intensity is what makes it so good, but you have to be willing to push yourself to your limits. That said, if you're not used to working out 4-5 days a week crossfit probably isn't what you're looking for. SS is great for starters, when I start up at the gym in the next few weeks thats what I'll be doing.

And I've noticed that most crossfit exercises use are fairly light weight, for me at least, but I'm about 70lbs bigger than you so that might have something to do with it. But if you're in good shape I don't think the weight crossfit uses is all that heavy.

Agreed. I did appreciate the intensity of the Crossfit classes. It's hard to experience without actually doing it with a group.

Regarding weights - for the Ramp-up nothing was RX'd - it was personal choice. The women usually do next to nothing; but the trainer does push us guys to use heavier weights. I alternated 10/9/8/7/6/5/4/3/2/1 at 65 lbs between the push press and deadlift. I felt great exhausting myself. I could have chosen to do less or more, and perhaps should have for the deadlift, but it was about perfect for the push press.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: NAC
This is news to me, I'd have much preferred a class like that. Or perhaps one in which the first half is learning/mastering one or two difficult exercises at low intensity, followed by a metcon with running and simpler exercises - pushups, inverted rows, burpees, whatever.

Every intro CF class I've seen has been exactly that: technique practice for the first half and then scaled down CF workouts consisting of simple exercises the second half.

From the Crossfit "Start Here" Page:

3) If many or most of the exercises are relatively or completely unknown to you, then we recommend that you begin learning the movements for a month or two until you can either perform our common exercises or have substitutions worked out for those movements under development. This is a great place to begin for anyone with little or no experience with serious weightlifting or gymnastics.

Originally posted by: NAC
Of what I know so far regarding thrusters - it seems to me dumbell thrusters can be done safely with low/moderate weight with intensity. The form for them isn't as crucial - it's easier than with a barbell, and the delicate wrist is not at risk. And it seems to me that a front squat and push press at high weight can give you all the benefits of a high weight barbell thruster. So concerning this one exercise, I don't see the point of a barbell thruster.

The barbell thruster has a lot of carry over to/from other barbell exercises you do: namely, the front squat, overhead press and push press. It also lets you use more weight than with dumbbells since it's easier to power clean a barbell onto your shoulders. Dumbbell thrusters also involve a slightly different motion and, with heavy dumbbells, actually can put a lot of stress onto your wrist - I learned this the hard way with a Crossfit Football workout that involved dumbbell thrusters with 50lb dumbbells. In general, the thruster is not a dangerous exercise, but I'd never make someone do it before they had good control over their front squat, overhead press and push press.

 

[Lamont Burns]

Deadlifts are the shit. I do them w/o bumper plates and found it comparable to squat in learning, not really easier... I was not keep it even all the time originally.

Plus, once you get to that amount where 1 rep makes your face boil, clearing it and placing it back on the ground is like sex. Only, not really.

 

[gramboh]

Sounds like the trainer is not doing on-ramp properly. It should be at least 50% working technique then a short quick workout after. Spending 5-10min on technique/skills then doing the WOD is what normal classes are like at the affiliates I've been to.

Part of the problem is many people are anxious to start working out and are not used to spending a lot of time on technique, and possibly don't realize it's absolutely essential to nail it before adding weight, so the trainer is trying to strike a balance (so clients get their 'ass kicked' and feel the money is well spent, versus paying $50 to stand around with a PVC pipe for an hour).

I definitely recommend doing SS until you exhaust your linear gains, it will make CF a lot better. I did Stronglifts/SS for about 8 months last year, and have been doing CF since January.

 

[katank]

I also went through Starting Strength and Stronglifts. These were great for building a good strength base to do Crossfit from. In terms of overall effectiveness, I think Crossfit is likely still better. If you want faster strength gains, try Crossfit Strength Bias.

As for the intensity over form part, I think you just went to an affiliate which isn't that good. Does anyone at that affiliate have a Crossfit Level 2 certification? Those aren't easy to get and generally trainers that have that would know what they are doing.

The affiliate that I went to is extremely good about making sure the form is solid before ramping up the intensity. Just went through a month of mandatory intro classes and I like it better than doing Crossfit on my own.

 

[NAC]

The owner of the affiliate and the main trainer I've worked with is listed on the crossfit level 2 trainer directory. I'm surprised by the comments here. I like the affiliate in all ways - the community spirit is nice, and the intensity is good, and the trainers do a good job of motivating and keeping the diverse group together.

Went to the 5th (my 4th) class last night with a different trainer and it was more like what's described here - we spent 20 minutes slowly reviewing skills - kippling, press, push press. Then we did high intensity work with "simpler" exercises - running, wall balls and pushups.

As someone wrote, I guess the main trainer doesn't want to bore folks, so everyone feels they get their money's worth with only high intensity stuff. And several in the class are older women who don't seem too into Crossfit - they just want to exercise. There is a young couple who are more experienced and have gone to Crossfit a while. I'm the only newbie who wants/needs to learn.

I guess she feels that the other newbies can't hurt themselves with the weights, they don't want to learn proper form anyway, and that I can tough it out.

 

[EvilYoda]

Have you addressed your concerns with the CF trainers? I'm sure they're open to comments and would try to fix the situation

 

[NAC]

I haven't.

I think I'll mention that I appreciate the time spent teaching/learning slowly. And I'll be sure to ask questions and participate in that part. And as I said, the last class with a different trainer did have a longer and more detailed teaching/learning part.

I think that this second trainer will be doing the remaining classes because the owner is on vacation.

I'm not sure if I'm comfortable questioning which exercises are done at high intensity. I plan to write it if there is a feedback form at the end of the class, for her to use as she wants. And I guess if I get the opportunity before or after class I might bring it up. But I don't feel expert enough to really question it, and especially don't want to have the discussion with other classmates involved.

And it isn't a black & white answer in my mind. Some people might think it is okay to get a "sore" wrist after thrusters, and perhaps my wrist is just sore. Maybe my form wasn't that bad. I did pick a higher weight on thrusters than she recommended (75 instead of 65), so maybe that was the cause. And what about deadlifts or push presses - are those safe for a newbie to do at high intensity? Because they had no ill effects for me.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

No high intensity for the noobie almost at all. You must 100% get your form down before adding much weight. Deadlifts are especially problematic because people who are new to the lift ALWAYS round their backs. This puts your spine in a compromising situation. You need to keep it light and increase weight and intensity as you go. It's a gradual thing.

 

[gramboh]

Originally posted by: NAC
I haven't.

I think I'll mention that I appreciate the time spent teaching/learning slowly. And I'll be sure to ask questions and participate in that part. And as I said, the last class with a different trainer did have a longer and more detailed teaching/learning part.

I think that this second trainer will be doing the remaining classes because the owner is on vacation.

I'm not sure if I'm comfortable questioning which exercises are done at high intensity. I plan to write it if there is a feedback form at the end of the class, for her to use as she wants. And I guess if I get the opportunity before or after class I might bring it up. But I don't feel expert enough to really question it, and especially don't want to have the discussion with other classmates involved.

And it isn't a black & white answer in my mind. Some people might think it is okay to get a "sore" wrist after thrusters, and perhaps my wrist is just sore. Maybe my form wasn't that bad. I did pick a higher weight on thrusters than she recommended (75 instead of 65), so maybe that was the cause. And what about deadlifts or push presses - are those safe for a newbie to do at high intensity? Because they had no ill effects for me.

I would definitely discuss your concerns with the trainers. Look at it this way, CF gyms are expensive (not that the owners are getting rich, they have low membership numbers and 100% members are active), so you need to get value from that. It sounds like you are going to a good affiliate, so they will not be offended and will take your concerns seriously.

Wrist pain can happen on thrusters, usually because of tight triceps/shoulders (wrist flexibility sometimes too). The problem is most people try to maintain a death grip on the bar during the front squat which is not possible, and this strains the wrist as you fight to stay upright.

I would definitely not scale up the weight while you are new to the movements, 65lbs is a good starting point if you are strong as it provides resistance but is light enough to focus on technique. Slow down, even during the WOD, and focus on crisp technique, for both push press and deadlift. You do not want to form sloppy habits in those movements and screw up your motor patterns for 1 rep max attempts. That being said, when you do get into high rep workouts your form will slide toward the end, the CF standard is a 20% threshold, but personally I sometimes have disgusting looking form at the end (E.g. filthy 50 45# push press).