Question 1TB NVMe: SX8200/S11 Pro or SN750?

[JustCoz]

Currently newegg has the 1TB WD SN750 and XPG GAMMIX S11 Pro, and the ADATA SX8200 Pro all for around $150. My understanding is that the S11 Pro and SX8200 Pro are identical, but the S11 comes with a heatsink. So, the question is SN750 vs S11 Pro. Benchmarks show them trading off which one is better, curious what you guys think. PC is an i7-4790k, which will soon have an RTX 2070 Super and 24GB DDR3, but whatever I buy now will ideally carry over to my next CPU/mobo. Main usage is gaming, I'm looking for fast level load times.

 

[NewMaxx]

You can get the 1TB SN750 more cheaply from WD's site. $149.99, 10% off for new accounts = $134.99, it's also possible to get $20.80 cashback from befrugal if you're a new user. Just FYI.

The SN750 is more of a prosumer or workspace drive in my opinion, although in general usage both are extremely fast. The S11 Pro does tend to be a bit faster with things like game/app loading times. To be fair, if that's your priority then the 1TB SN550 is a good option as well, and can also be had on WD's site with the coupon + CB for even less and performs about the same as the SN750 for general use.

Heatsink is usually not a big deal if you have reasonable cooling.

 

[Fallengod]

I feel like I should have gotten the WD black for the price heh. That thing is cheap.

 

[VirtualLarry]

How is the Adata SX8100 model? They claim 3500/3000MB/s read/write.

I've got a pair of rigs with R5 1600 CPUs, one has 16GB of DDR4, the other has 32GB, both have GTX 1660ti Ventus model GPUs.

Want to re-format and re-setup those rigs as dedicated mining rigs, more or less what they're already doing, but want to get them configured such that I can sell them as a viable gaming PC at a moment's notice as well, by just un-installing the mining software (Windows 10 is the OS), by getting them new primary OS storage devices, and removing my personal stuff off of them.

I have some 512GB Intel 545s SATA SSDs in each of them, but I figured I would: 1) Upgrade to NVMe, and 2) Save the pricey Intel drives for my personal-usage rigs.

Looking for cheap and good, fast can take a back seat.

I do have 2x 1TB Intel 660p (1800/1800MB/s read/write, QLC NAND) NVMe SSDs in my main R5 3600 rig, if I got new storage for that PC, and broke up the RAID-0, I could re-purpose those NVMe 1TB SSDs for the 2x R5 1600 PCs.

If I did that, I would want at least a 2TB NVMe SSD, with 3500/3000, for my R5 3600 rig.

I intend, when I get the money, to upgrade the CPU in both of those rigs as well.

I might not sell them, just keep them around for mining. If I upgrade the CPUs to R5 3600 or R7 3700X, I can nearly double the mining output, I think.

Edit: I'm a little iffy on future Adata SSDs. I've bought plenty of Adata flash drives, and like 5-10% of them were bad out of the packaging, and one batch of them didn't even work with Win10, unless I did a manual firmware update on each of them. I also had an SX6000 (non-Lite) model, which they no longer sell, that constantly would drop out in a DeskMini. (Granted, the Intel 600p used the same SMI controller, and they did issue a firmware update for that DeskMini board, specifically to address issues with that SSD controller chip, but I don't know if it ever got fully stable in that combination.) So, once bitten, twice shy, with Adata. Plus, I said that I swore them off, after people ordered SX8200 drives on BF, and got shipped SX8100 drives, if they didn't return Adata's e-mail about the OOS. Which really rubs me the wrong way.

I don't think that I've ever owned a WD SSD, but I'm open to trying out one of their SN750 (black) or SN550 (blue) drives, IF they're price-competitive at the time. I'm also open to using an HP EX920/950 SSD, if HP is still making those. A friend has one of those, and he generally gets along with it. (Does have some freezing issues with Linux, not a "hard freeze", the mouse will still move, but apps stop responding. Not sure if it's just Linux and his AMD APU (GPU drivers), or the NVMe.)

Edit: Now I'm thinking of a toss-up, between a Sabrent Rocket Q (QLC) 2TB NVMe, versus an Intel 665p 2TB NVMe. The Sabrent Q has faster read/write speeds, but the Intel has a longer warranty out of the box, and all of my Intel SSDs over the years have been utterly reliable. (Well, maybe the 600p wasn't SO great, nor in performance, but it was just OK. I'm happy with my 2x 660p 1TB in RAID-0 right now.)

 

[NewMaxx]

How is the Adata SX8100 model?

I don't think that I've ever owned a WD SSD, but I'm open to trying out one of their SN750 (black) or SN550 (blue) drives, IF they're price-competitive at the time. I'm also open to using an HP EX920/950 SSD, if HP is still making those.

I don't own the SX8100 but I do have access to deeper test results for it thanks to some reviewer friends. However, you can read the S40G reviews that are around to get a feel for the SX8100 as they have the same hardware. My expertise is with the technicals so I can at least share my thoughts there:

• Dual-core controller that's somewhat similar to the SMI ones (SM2262/EN specifically) with a bit more balance towards all-around performance like the Phison E12 drives. Seems to be a bit lower-clocked, probably one way to save a bit on cost. In any case, this means pretty good 4K random LQD but in my experience it doesn't translate greatly to e.g. app/game loading times, leaning closer to the E12.
• Flash is good IMFT TLC. Not much to say there.
• DRAM is limited to a single 128MB chip and it's on the rear side, making it a double-sided drive (S40G as well). The SX8800 variant is single-sided but otherwise similar.
• Typical for ADATA, the SLC cache is very large (and dynamic). The Realtek controllers seem to use some sort of pMLC rather than pSLC caching, according to some reviewers. This is an interesting trade-off as it means worse peak performance but a more generous cache that gains some consistency (2 bit per 3 vs. 1 bit per 3).

I personally put it in-between Budget drives (generally four-channel, DRAM-less) and Consumer drives (generally four-channel, plenty of DRAM). I don't feel the DRAM is a limitation for consumer workloads and the overall design is a fair compromise. It's cheaper while still getting the job done. My problem with it is mostly from an engineering standpoint in the sense that I think it sends mixed signals, trying to do everything, which makes sense given its market segment but (for me) means it's really only an option if it's explicitly priced in-between for example the SN550 and SX8200 Pro. Keep in mind some of these details are based on launch data that might have changed (e.g. dual-core).

As for the WD drives: I've covered these extensively on Reddit and they're quite good but the pricing of the SN750 even now is such that it's probably not optimal for general use. Great workspace drive, though. The SN550 on the other hand is pretty great. It's not the fastest by any means but most people won't notice the difference. I still feel the EX920/EX950 is the fastest (I use 1TB EX920 for OS/boot/apps, 2TB EX950 for games, 1TB SN750 for workspace, and am testing a 1TB SN550 right now, I also have SX8200s) but we're talking small differences.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Thanks for that valuable info! Is the SN550 DRAM-less? Do you feel that puts it in a lower category than the SX8100? I would prefer a drive with DRAM, however low in capacity that DRAM might be.

Are they still producing the EX920/950 drives? Any fire-sales on them? They do perform pretty decently. And they pre-date the QLC "obsession" of current SSD makers.

 

[NewMaxx]

It is DRAM-less, but as usual has embedded SRAM which in part can be utilized for mapping. Check AnandTech's review on the SN500 (same basic drive but with older flash and an x2 interface) for impact. In general it's not a significant problem for consumer usage in this case for a variety of reasons. One, NVMe has lower latency and access times plus better queueing; two, it has 96L BiCS4 (which helps a little on per-die performance); three, it has a powerful controller (scaled-down from the SN750); four, it has an entirely static SLC cache which is 12.5GB at 1TB. This makes for a very consistent drive - based as it is on the client/OEM SN520 - and it mitigates the problem areas for DRAM-less drives. Makes it an excellent budget option in general. I do have it a category below the SX8100 but you should factor in cost.

I still see EX920s and EX950s around but there are alternatives that share the same hardware that come close. Even the Kingston A2000 (SM2263) is pretty solid if you can find it priced right.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Hmm, thanks again. I hadn't considered the Kingston A2000, I don't know too much about Kingston NVMe drives.

I might just go with a pair of WD SN550 512GB drives, for the two secondary rigs, and not sweat it, if I can get them cheap enough on sale. (They are currently $64.99 @ Newegg with a $5 off promo code on top. And the 1TB is $119.99, same price/GB.)

I would go with a cheaper Intel 660p or 665p 1TB NVMe SSD hand-down, if they were still significantly cheaper than the competition. (They were at introduction, and for a few months, then the price shot up, faster than other competing SSDs shot up due to inflation and NAND supply prices. Intel suddenly wanted premium prices, for QLC NAND-based drives, for some reason.)

 

[VirtualLarry]

Are you a human?

www.newegg.com

All things considered, the 2TB EX950 doesn't look that bad. TLC, 1400TBW (!!!), 5-year warranty, 3500/2800 read/write, $269 or so, pretty reasonable.

Plus, 8 flash channels, and DRAM. You know what they say about no replacement for displacement.

Edit: Hmm, drooling a little here, maybe get 2x 2TB EX950 drives, and run them in RAID-0 again, on my B450-F ROG STRIX / R5 3600 CPU rig, and replace my current 2x 1TB 660p NVMe SSDs, and then re-purpose those for my secondary rigs?

I wonder if my Ryzen CPU (Zen2) can reach greater than 4000MB/sec, with dual NVMe PCI-E 3.0 x4 drives, or if there's some sort of chipset/CPU PCI-E limitation that caps it, that the X570 chipset doesn't have the same limit. I might get an X570 board soon anyways too, as my existing board burned out it's 1GbE-T NIC.

 

[NewMaxx]

The Kingston A2000 has the same controller as the 660p - the SM2263 - but has full DRAM and 96L TLC. The SMI SM2263 is fairly similar to the SM2262 in many respects, although of course half the channels (impacts sequentials primarily). So you get very good app/game performance out of the A2000, as in SM2262EN levels. Biggest drawback (if you want to call it that) is its large SLC cache which can make for inconsistent performance, although we see that also on the SM2262EN drives in some cases (e.g. when fuller under load).

The SN550 uses denser (512Gb/die) 96L flash (BiCS4), at least on the 1TB SKU, I'm not sure if it uses the 256Gb/die variant on the smaller SKUs, but of course if it's denser that would mean 4x2 interleaving at 500GB which is what you see on the 250GB SN500. And of course the SLC cache is smaller. You can get them at WD's site although they have 1-2 week backorder right now, however it's $109.99 - 10% (new users) or -15% (student/teacher/senior) plus cashback on multiple sites up to 8% plus specials. For example, befrugal nets you $20.80 CB on the 1TB SN750 which is $134.99 with 10% discount. Etc. (you can also get the 500GB SN550 for $58-something with 10% off)

The 2TB EX950 is the best games drive on the market (IMHO) and fast in its own right. It actually performs a bit worse than the 1TB SKU and even the 1TB EX920 due to using denser 64L flash (512Gb/die), more technical stuff, and yes it's not a huge difference but I'm a stickler.

 

[VirtualLarry]

What is your opinion on longevity, putting aside performance for a moment? The 1400 TBW for the 2TB EX950 is really impressive to me.

I was thinking about it, with my "consumer workload" (with occasional ISO downloads or slinging them back and forth with my NAS with large spinners), and even with some distributed computing and mining (lots of little WUs downloaded and processed and deleted), I estimate that a pair of EX950 2TB NVMe SSDs in RAID-0, could literally outlive me. (I'm in my mid-40s.)

I've already figured that my 240GB Adata SP550 (I think), with my current workload (9TBW after like 3 years), will likely last the rest of my life too. In theory. (I know that eventually, perhaps, the solder connections might corrode, or the SMT caps might fail, etc., sooner than 50 years, but it's fun to estimate.)

 

[NewMaxx]

TBW only applies to warranty, as in total bytes written or warranty period, whichever comes first. This makes the period much more important for consumer usage (FYI, the SN550 is five-year despite being a budget drive). TBW specifically relates to DWPD as determined by the period and drives are chosen by that metric for write-heavy workloads. The E12/E16 drives have very high TBW because they were positioned against Samsung's drives including the MLC-based 970 Pro, however you should not be mislead by that especially for the E16 (which has a massive SLC cache, pretty much the opposite of what you'd want for that type of workload). In fact the TBW for the E12 is derived from the flash's P/E with consumer WAF - that is, 2500 P/E with consumer WAF of 1.5 = 1667TB TBW @ 1TB. Keeping in mind actual P/E is up to several times that in practice, but I'm simplifying. (the E16 has slightly higher TBW due to improved LDPC)

tl;dr TBW is meaningless for consumers, although IMHO IMFT flash is superior in endurance to Toshiba's (and WD uses effectively Toshiba flash) - and FYI the 2TB E12 drives come in at up to 3200TB TBW

(side note: TBW is usually taken to be "terabytes written" but it's more correct to say "total bytes written" - unfortunately the industry has run off with the term as it had with for example decimal capacities, sigh)

 

[VirtualLarry]

What flash mfg do Sabrent drives utilize? Toshiba or IMFT? Thinking of the Rocket, Rocket Q, and Rocket 4.0.

 

[NewMaxx]

Originally the E12 drives (like the Sabrent Rocket) used Toshiba BiCS3/64L, however since the change to the E12S they can come with a variety of flash. I've seen Micron B27A (96L) and Toshiba BiCS4 (96L) most prominently. The Rocket Q originally came with 64L Intel QLC but now seems to use the 96L variant, albeit with less DRAM (the regular Rocket also downgraded DRAM at 1/2TB). The Rocket 4.0 uses BiCS4. Many drives have transitioned to 96L as supply has changed so there's no true certainty, although of course the A2000 is one example of a drive that comes with quite nice flash.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Thanks for letting me "pick your brain" on this stuff. So much that I don't know, and haven't caught up with.

I'm hesitating to buy PCI-E 4.0 NVMe drives, at the moment, both because of their higher prices (like, twice the price), and because I feel like the earlier PCI-E 4.0 drives, are soon to be outdated by drives with controllers actually designed and optimized for PCI-E 4.0, rather than just adapted, and thirdly, because real-world performance differences between PCI-E 3.0 and 4.0 is increasingly a game of "splitting hairs".

QD1 scores have barely increased, in some cases, between a "good" SATA drive, and a decent or even mediocre NVMe drive.

If there was an NVMe drive, with 128MB/sec QD1 (random) read scores, or better, I would strongly consider it. I don't think that I've seen any drives that can exceed that yet. (Most I've seen, seem to score around 40-60MB/sec. random QD1 read.)

 

[NewMaxx]

The current drives are a stopgap solution, not least because they wouldn't meet the PS5's criteria for expansion (for example). And certainly more exciting is getting the newer flash rather than going to 4.0, even though it's still NAND (so limited "real world" gains), but 12nm controllers will come with parallel benefits like power efficiency gains as well. Other factors would be NVMe 1.4 support (not significant for consumer usage probably) but also improvements in SLC caching for example among other things (e.g. higher capacities). I don't find the E16 drives to be compelling in the least but we have a series of great controllers coming out later this year and the upcoming 128L flash generation is also looking good. I suppose the basic architecture or topology won't drastically change, though.

I'm most interested in the SMI SM2264 as it should be focused on LQD 4K and I suspect faster there than anything else.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I'm most interested in the SMI SM2264 as it should be focused on LQD 4K and I suspect faster there than anything else.

Maybe I'll hold off for a bit too, as I'm also interested in (low, I assume) queue-depth 4K ability. As well as adequate sequential.

Are they still making EX 920 / 950? If not, I guess I have a decision to make, sooner rather than later.

 

[NewMaxx]

Haven't seen them on sale for a few months so not sure, but the 1TB EX920 was popular as late as January of this year. Similar drives out there as well...

Given the SM2264's numbers and the fact it's 12nm, I suspect it'll be a SM2262EN with a tri-core design which would make it pretty killer. Likewise the SM2267 would probably be a 4-channel variant of that which superficially sounds boring but it means you could slot it into a x4 PCIe 3.0 socket and max it out with the benefits of new flash and the better controller.

 

[NewMaxx]

1TB EX950 is "on sale" right now by the way.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Yeah, I saw that. Too bad it's not the 2TB, and too bad I don't have any spare money right now.

 

[NewMaxx]

Can't help with the money issue but I will say the 1TB SKU is the best one, the 512Gb/die flash on the 2TB is a bit slower.