15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
57,046
18,364
146
Anyone else notice a slight hint of bias in this article?

15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
By ADAM LIPTAK - The New York Times

In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Supporters call them ?stand your ground? laws. Opponents call them ?shoot first? laws.

Thanks to this sort of law, a prostitute in Port Richey, Fla., who killed her 72-year-old client with his own gun rather than flee was not charged last month. Similarly, the police in Clearwater, Fla., did not arrest a man who shot a neighbor in early June after a shouting match over putting out garbage, though the authorities say they are still reviewing the evidence.

The first of the new laws took effect in Florida in October, and cases under it are now reaching prosecutors and juries there. The other laws, mostly in Southern and Midwestern states, were enacted this year, according to the National Rifle Association, which has enthusiastically promoted them.

Florida does not keep comprehensive records on the impact of its new law, but prosecutors and defense lawyers there agree that fewer people who claim self-defense are being charged or convicted.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the law?s words, ?has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force.? The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

The central innovation in the Florida law, said Anthony J. Sebok, a professor at Brooklyn Law School, is not its elimination of the duty to retreat, which has been eroding nationally through judicial decisions, but in expanding the right to shoot intruders who pose no threat to the occupant?s safety.

?In effect,? Professor Sebok said, ?the law allows citizens to kill other citizens in defense of property.?

This month, a jury in West Palm Beach, Fla., will hear the retrial of a murder case that illustrates the dividing line between the old law and the new one. In November 2004, before the new law was enacted, a cabdriver in West Palm Beach killed a drunken passenger in an altercation after dropping him off.

The first jury deadlocked 9-to-3 in favor of convicting the driver, Robert Lee Smiley Jr., said Henry Munnilal, the jury foreman.

?Mr. Smiley had a lot of chances to retreat and to avoid an escalation,? said Mr. Munnilal, a 62-year-old accountant. ?He could have just gotten in his cab and left. The thing could have been avoided, and a man?s life would have been saved.?

Mr. Smiley tried to invoke the new law, which does away with the duty to retreat and would almost certainly have meant his acquittal, but an appeals court refused to apply it retroactively. He has appealed that issue to the Florida Supreme Court.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens.

?If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side,? Mr. LaPierre said. ?Good people make good decisions. That?s why they?re good people. If you?re going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.?

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

Sarah Brady, chairwoman of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said her group would fight those efforts. ?In a way,? Ms. Brady said of the new laws, ?it?s a license to kill.?

Many prosecutors oppose the laws, saying they are unnecessary at best and pernicious at worst. ?They?re basically giving citizens more rights to use deadly force than we give police officers, and with less review,? said Paul A. Logli, president of the National District Attorneys Association.

But some legal experts doubt the laws will make a practical difference. ?It?s inconceivable to me that one in a hundred Floridians could tell you how the law has changed,? said Gary Kleck, who teaches criminology at Florida State University.

Even before the new laws, Professor Kleck added, claims of self-defense were often accepted. ?In the South,? he said, ?they more or less give the benefit of the doubt to the alleged victim?s account.?

The case involving the Port Richey prostitute, Jacqueline Galas, turned on the new law, said Michael Halkitis, division director of the state attorney?s office in nearby New Port Richey. Ms. Galas, 23, said that a longtime client, Frank Labiento, 72, threatened to kill her and then kill himself last month. A suicide note he had left and other evidence supported her contention.

The law came into play when Ms. Galas grabbed Mr. Labiento?s gun and chose not to flee but to kill him. ?Before that law,? Mr. Halkitis said, ?before you could use deadly force, you had to retreat. Under the new law, you don?t have to do that.?

The decision not to charge Ms. Galas was straightforward, Mr. Halkitis said. ?It would have been a more difficult situation with the old law,? he said, ?much more difficult.?

In the case of the West Palm Beach cabdriver, Mr. Smiley, then 56, killed Jimmie Morningstar, 43. A sports bar had paid Mr. Smiley $10 to drive Mr. Morningstar home in the early morning of Nov. 6, 2004.

Mr. Morningstar was apparently reluctant to leave the cab once it reached its destination, and Mr. Smiley used a stun gun to hasten his exit. Once outside the cab, Mr. Morningstar flashed a knife, Mr. Smiley testified at his first trial, though one was never found. Mr. Smiley, who had gotten out of his cab, reacted by shooting at his passenger?s feet and then into his body, killing him.

Cliff Morningstar, the dead man?s uncle, said he was baffled by the killing. ?He had a radio,? Mr. Morningstar said of Mr. Smiley. ?He could have gotten in his car and left. He could have shot him in his knee.?

Carey Haughwout, the public defender who represents Mr. Smiley, conceded that no knife was found. ?However,? Ms. Haughwout said, ?there is evidence to support that the victim came at Smiley after Smiley fired two warning shots, and that he did have something in his hand.?

In April, a Florida appeals court indicated that the new law, had it applied to Mr. Smiley?s case, would have affected its outcome.

?Prior to the legislative enactment, a person was required to ?retreat to the wall? before using his or her right of self-defense by exercising deadly force,? Judge Martha C. Warner wrote. The new law, Judge Warner said, abolished that duty.

Jason M. Rosenbloom, the man shot by his neighbor in Clearwater, said his case illustrated the flaws in the Florida law. ?Had it been a year and a half ago, he could have been arrested for attempted murder,? Mr. Rosenbloom said of his neighbor, Kenneth Allen.

?I was in T-shirt and shorts,? Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allen?s door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

?I was no threat,? Mr. Rosenbloom said. ?I had no weapon.?

The men exchanged heated words. ?He closed the door and then opened the door,? Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. ?He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didn?t even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.?

Mr. Allen, whose phone number is out of service and who could not be reached for comment, told The St. Petersburg Times that Mr. Rosenbloom had had his foot in the door and had tried to rush into the house, an assertion Mr. Rosenbloom denied.

?I have a right,? Mr. Allen said, ?to keep my house safe.?

 

dug777

Lifer
Oct 13, 2004
24,778
4
0
*shoots Amused for not providing peer-reviewed studies that prove guns can kill people*

;)
 

Kelemvor

Lifer
May 23, 2002
16,928
8
81
Well, if you don't want to get dead, then stop breaking the law. Makes sense to me.

Now it would have to be when a crime was being commited against you (break-in, robbery, etc) not just an argument as thsoe aren't illegal so the guy with the garbage incident should go to jail.
 

pontifex

Lifer
Dec 5, 2000
43,804
46
91
Originally posted by: FrankyJunior
Well, if you don't want to get dead, then stop breaking the law. Makes sense to me.

Now it would have to be when a crime was being commited against you (break-in, robbery, etc) not just an argument as thsoe aren't illegal so the guy with the garbage incident should go to jail.

exactly.
 

SpanishFry

Platinum Member
Nov 3, 2001
2,965
0
0
Originally posted by: Amused
?I was in T-shirt and shorts,? Mr. Rosenbloom said, recalling the day he knocked on Mr. Allen?s door. Mr. Allen, a retired Virginia police officer, had lodged a complaint with the local authorities, taking Mr. Rosenbloom to task for putting out eight bags of garbage, though local ordinances allow only six.

?I was no threat,? Mr. Rosenbloom said. ?I had no weapon.?

The men exchanged heated words. ?He closed the door and then opened the door,? Mr. Rosenbloom said of Mr. Allen. ?He had a gun. I turned around to put my hands up. He didn?t even say a word, and he fired once into my stomach. I bent over, and he shot me in the chest.?

Mr. Allen should be shot in the face. 8 instead of 6??!! I live by people like this. :|
 

43st

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2001
3,197
0
0
I had a friend who was shot in the back by a gun nut, he died on the spot. It was over a similar dispute as mentioned in the article, this one involving dogs. Thankfully the law in PA at the time meant the murderer went to prison for life. It's a shame these murderers can get off under these new laws. Just yell "he's coming right at me" before you open up right? :p
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,140
138
106
It's about time we started de-pvssifying the US. Everybody should be required to learn gun safety in school, and should be allowed to carry openly, within reason (IE: no assault rifles or shotguns, etc). You respect a man, his family, and his property, and don't be a whiny b1tch, and you won't get shot.
 

Canun

Senior member
Apr 1, 2006
528
4
81
Originally posted by: Thera
I had a friend who was shot in the back by a gun nut, he died on the spot. It was over a similar dispute as mentioned in the article, this one involving dogs. Thankfully the law in PA at the time meant the murderer went to prison for life. It's a shame these murderers can get off under these new laws. Just yell "he's coming right at me" before you open up right? :p


THe only time this law would come into affect would be in the cases of a crime being committed against them. You wouldn't get off if you shot your neighbor because he shot your dog. You could if the said neighbor broke through your door and had a gun. or crowbar...etc.
 

Thraxen

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2001
4,683
1
81
Originally posted by: Raduque
It's about time we started de-pvssifying the US. Everybody should be required to learn gun safety in school, and should be allowed to carry openly, within reason (IE: no assault rifles or shotguns, etc). You respect a man, his family, and his property, and don't be a whiny b1tch, and you won't get shot.

Doesn't fit the garbage situation. The "whiny bitch" is the guy that ultimately did the shooting.
 

CrackRabbit

Lifer
Mar 30, 2001
16,642
62
91
These laws as an idea are great, the thought of being able to defend your self, family and property if needed is good. But then you have idiots like the ones mentioned in the article that abuse the law and end up convincing the general public it is a bad idea to defend anything and you end up like the UK where you will get a longer jail term for stopping an intruder with force than he/she would for breaking in in the first place. :|
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,140
138
106
Originally posted by: Thraxen
Originally posted by: Raduque
It's about time we started de-pvssifying the US. Everybody should be required to learn gun safety in school, and should be allowed to carry openly, within reason (IE: no assault rifles or shotguns, etc). You respect a man, his family, and his property, and don't be a whiny b1tch, and you won't get shot.

Doesn't fit the garbage situation. The "whiny bitch" is the guy that ultimately did the shooting.

In that case, he should be convicted. I wasn't being serious about the "whiny bitch" part, just using it to try and get my point across.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Excellent law allowing fair citizens to defend themselves, others should stay off their property.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,389
8,547
126
Originally posted by: Raduque
It's about time we started de-pvssifying the US. Everybody should be required to learn gun safety in school, and should be allowed to carry openly, within reason (IE: no [l]assault rifles[/l] or shotguns, etc). You respect a man, his family, and his property, and don't be a whiny b1tch, and you won't get shot.

what about the same lock and barrel, but with a nice walnut stock instead of a black composite one?
 

Thraxen

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2001
4,683
1
81
Originally posted by: CrackRabbit
These laws as an idea are great, the thought of being able to defend your self, family and property if needed is good. But then you have idiots like the ones mentioned in the article that abuse the law and end up convincing the general public it is a bad idea to defend anything and you end up like the UK where you will get a longer jail term for stopping an intruder with force than he/she would for breaking in in the first place. :|

Exactly. I'm all for being able to defend myself (hell, I own 5 guns) and think it's ridiculous that I should be worried about going to prison for shooting an intruder in my own home. BUT then I read about dumbasses like the guy that shot his neighbor over garbage. NWTF? I certainly wouldn't shoot my neighbor if s/he came over to talk to me, even if it was to yell and argue with me. Unless my neighbor tried to come in the house uninvited or the altercation actually came to blows, a gun should never even enter the picture. Then you have that guy in Florida that not only shot his neighbor for no reason, but the discussion was apparently over when he did... he actually closed the door and then re-opened it with a gun in hand and shot him... twice. And he might actually get off because of the new law? That is 100% inexcusable. Period.
 

DaiShan

Diamond Member
Jul 5, 2001
9,617
1
0
Originally posted by: zendari
Excellent law allowing fair citizens to defend themselves, others should stay off their property.


You have to forcibly enter, simple tresspassing is not enough to pull the trigger. It's a good thing.
 

49erinnc

Platinum Member
Feb 10, 2004
2,095
0
0
I'm all for it. If an intruder steps one foot in my house, I should be allowed to put a bullet in their head, even if they're only armed with a slingshot. If you don't want to die, don't enter someone's home without their permission. Pretty cut and dry if you ask me.
 

Thraxen

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2001
4,683
1
81
Originally posted by: 49erinnc
I'm all for it. If an intruder steps one foot in my house, I should be allowed to put a bullet in their head, even if they're only armed with a slingshot. If you don't want to die, don't enter someone's home without their permission. Pretty cut and dry if you ask me.

Did you even read the article? It's apparently not that cut and dry.
 

Linflas

Lifer
Jan 30, 2001
15,395
78
91
Originally posted by: Thraxen
Originally posted by: 49erinnc
I'm all for it. If an intruder steps one foot in my house, I should be allowed to put a bullet in their head, even if they're only armed with a slingshot. If you don't want to die, don't enter someone's home without their permission. Pretty cut and dry if you ask me.

Did you even read the article? It's apparently not that cut and dry.

The slant I would expect from any article on this subject appearing in the NY Times.
 

loic2003

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2003
3,844
0
0
Originally posted by: FrankyJunior
Well, if you don't want to get dead, then stop breaking the law. Makes sense to me.

Now it would have to be when a crime was being commited against you (break-in, robbery, etc) not just an argument as thsoe aren't illegal so the guy with the garbage incident should go to jail.
Good point. So, if you accidentally wander onto someone's property when you're drunk and they shoot you in the face you'll be sound with that?

It's good that you have so much confidence in your fellow americans to make life-and-death decisions with clarity. Personally, I fear that dumbasses (and lets not forget that there's an overwhelmingly large volume of dumbasses in the US) will misinterperet the law or abuse it and yet more people will die through it.

Having said that, if all law-abiding citizens could be trusted, the law is a good move towards decent people having decent rights again.
 

Thraxen

Diamond Member
Dec 3, 2001
4,683
1
81
Originally posted by: Linflas
Originally posted by: Thraxen
Originally posted by: 49erinnc
I'm all for it. If an intruder steps one foot in my house, I should be allowed to put a bullet in their head, even if they're only armed with a slingshot. If you don't want to die, don't enter someone's home without their permission. Pretty cut and dry if you ask me.

Did you even read the article? It's apparently not that cut and dry.

The slant I would expect from any article on this subject appearing in the NY Times.


Granted, they provided a slanted view, but does that make the examples any less valid? No.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
6,558
0
0
Originally posted by: loic2003
Originally posted by: FrankyJunior
Well, if you don't want to get dead, then stop breaking the law. Makes sense to me.

Now it would have to be when a crime was being commited against you (break-in, robbery, etc) not just an argument as thsoe aren't illegal so the guy with the garbage incident should go to jail.
Good point. So, if you accidentally wander onto someone's property when you're drunk and they shoot you in the face you'll be sound with that?
How do you "wander" onto someone's properly and attempt to break into their house?