$14B auto bailout bill failed to pass

[abaez]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Xavier434
The decrease that the Reps wanted the UAW laborers to endure in 2009 is about 30% after taking into consideration everything they get in both wages and benefits. I personally believe that was asking for a bit too much too fast. I think 15%-20% would have been more reasonable. I don't blame the UAW for saying no to that.

I guess at this point when you are begging for help one shouldnt be a chooser. What is worse. 30% paycut to fix the company with a potential recovery down the road or out on the street until Toyota buys the factory and reemploys you at the same rate?

Here's an article with some decent analysis and real numbers:

http://www.slate.com/id/2206574/

The UAW did not want to make any wage concessions until their contracts expired in 2011. Good idea knuckleheads.

Second, "Detroit's unionized workers make about $10 an hour more than those at nonunionized plants, mostly because of benefits."

If it came down to a $10 cut in pay or no job, they are even stupider than I thought.

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: brencat
I've had CNBC on all morning since 7:30. Bob Corker was on ~ 8:30 and stated the parity pay issue was what doomed it. That he and his colleagues wanted the union to agree to a date in 2009...left up to them, and language was broad enough to give them wiggle room. Also gave them an out if the Sec of Commerce (Richardson in the new Obama administration) overruled the date. But the UAW refused.

Now just 15 mins ago, I watched the Ron Gettlefinger press conference. He made it somewhat political -- "Republican Senators" doomed this bipartisan compromise. He also talked about how he wasn't confident of negotiating with Corker, who they don't really know that well, that after showing their hand Corker might not then be able to deliver the votes anyway and they would then be in a weaker bargaining position later.

Finally he mentioned 4 internal emails from Toyota (sources unknown, could be B.S.) in the past 9 mos claiming how the UAW was falling behind on pay in the industry. He backed this up with two more memos that showed how Toyota wages, when you factor in the $6 - $8k bonuses their workers at a certain plant received last year, were actually higher than the UAW's by ~ $2/hr.

The problem I have with that last comment particularly, is that everyone knows that bonuses give corporations huge flexibility. So it's total B.S. that Toyota's wages are higher. YOU CAN'T COUNT THE BONUS Ron. Toyota's wages in a good year, counting bonuses, might be on parity, but the salaried wages ARE LOWER than the UAW. I'm not surprised that no one challenged him on this in the follow up Q&A.

EXACTLY why UAW is absolutely clueless. I honestly think their mentality hasn't changed since the 70s - comp. flexibility is a huge thing for any corporate strategy. When you're not making money, you don't pay as much.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: senseamp
The reason it failed is because Senators with Japanese companies building cars in their states sold this country down the tubes.
UAW excuse is just that, an excuse. They wanted to kill this bill, and they succeeded, for a time. Next year, we'll see.

Don't forget German and Korean.

Yep. If the Japanese, Germans and Koreans don't reign in their senators, they may feel some protectionist head wind and more pro labor laws come next year.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: senseamp
The reason it failed is because Senators with Japanese companies building cars in their states sold this country down the tubes.
UAW excuse is just that, an excuse. They wanted to kill this bill, and they succeeded, for a time. Next year, we'll see.

Don't forget German and Korean.

Yep. If the Japanese, Germans and Koreans don't reign in their senators, they may feel some protectionist head wind and more pro labor laws come next year.

So what you are saying is if they dont shape up the same shit is going to hit the fan like it is in Michigan? You sound excited at the possibility of spreading the misery and sending those jobs back across the ocean.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: brencat

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Interesting to note that conservatives seem to love their little war on the workers. Cheap labor FTL! But then act surprised when the unions and union workers all vote Democrat. I guess the GOP is happy to add another group of voters to the ever-growing list that will never vote for them, eh?

It was never about punishing workers. It's about sticking to principles of capitalism and free markets, including competition, and survival of the fittest. Why is it that Honda, Toyota, and BMW are thriving while building cars in the U.S. with non-union labor?

Simple: they make a better product.

Believe me, I'm saddened that we might see mass layoffs of good folks very soon. But I don't believe in saving poorly run companies with crappy products either, just because the consequences might be ugly.

While I agree that the Japanese in particular make a superior product in nearly every way, one could argue that the foreign auto-makers are thriving because it isn't a level playing field. I could rattle off several advantages the Japanese car manufacturers benefit from that the US car makers don't.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: brencat

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Interesting to note that conservatives seem to love their little war on the workers. Cheap labor FTL! But then act surprised when the unions and union workers all vote Democrat. I guess the GOP is happy to add another group of voters to the ever-growing list that will never vote for them, eh?

It was never about punishing workers. It's about sticking to principles of capitalism and free markets, including competition, and survival of the fittest. Why is it that Honda, Toyota, and BMW are thriving while building cars in the U.S. with non-union labor?

Simple: they make a better product.

Believe me, I'm saddened that we might see mass layoffs of good folks very soon. But I don't believe in saving poorly run companies with crappy products either, just because the consequences might be ugly.

While I agree that the Japanese in particular make a superior product in nearly every way, one could argue that the foreign auto-makers are thriving because it isn't a level playing field. I could rattle off several advantages the Japanese car manufacturers benefit from that the US car makers don't.

Lets create a list
I will add the first

#1. Non Unionzed labor

your turn

 

[Squisher]

Most of you know where I stand on this issue as a somewhat GM retiree.

That being said, my feelings on this particular failure last night are torn in two.

On one hand I can see where the UAW should have been asked to give in and on the surface it sounds appealing the whole pay should be level with foreign transplants thing. However, agreeing to something as nebulous as some undefined parity is not what union is used to doing. They want a number. They do not want their future determined by some arbitrary feeling by someone on an arbitrary day in the future.

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: brencat

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Interesting to note that conservatives seem to love their little war on the workers. Cheap labor FTL! But then act surprised when the unions and union workers all vote Democrat. I guess the GOP is happy to add another group of voters to the ever-growing list that will never vote for them, eh?

It was never about punishing workers. It's about sticking to principles of capitalism and free markets, including competition, and survival of the fittest. Why is it that Honda, Toyota, and BMW are thriving while building cars in the U.S. with non-union labor?

Simple: they make a better product.

Believe me, I'm saddened that we might see mass layoffs of good folks very soon. But I don't believe in saving poorly run companies with crappy products either, just because the consequences might be ugly.

Because they build the parts in their heavily unionized factories at home and mainly assemble the cars in the US.

I also suggest you look at the reliability / satisfaction ratings of domestic cars - JD Powers, Consumer reports etc. You'll be surprised to find some domestics take top billing, yes even over Toyota.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: senseamp
The reason it failed is because Senators with Japanese companies building cars in their states sold this country down the tubes.
UAW excuse is just that, an excuse. They wanted to kill this bill, and they succeeded, for a time. Next year, we'll see.

Don't forget German and Korean.

Yep. If the Japanese, Germans and Koreans don't reign in their senators, they may feel some protectionist head wind and more pro labor laws come next year.

So what you are saying is if they dont shape up the same shit is going to hit the fan like it is in Michigan? You sound excited at the possibility of spreading the misery and sending those jobs back across the ocean.

That's where protectionist headwind comes in. Ship jobs across the ocean, pay tariff to import cars.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: senseamp
The reason it failed is because Senators with Japanese companies building cars in their states sold this country down the tubes.
UAW excuse is just that, an excuse. They wanted to kill this bill, and they succeeded, for a time. Next year, we'll see.

Don't forget German and Korean.

Yep. If the Japanese, Germans and Koreans don't reign in their senators, they may feel some protectionist head wind and more pro labor laws come next year.

So what you are saying is if they dont shape up the same shit is going to hit the fan like it is in Michigan? You sound excited at the possibility of spreading the misery and sending those jobs back across the ocean.

That's where protectionist headwind comes in. Ship jobs across the ocean, pay tariff to import cars.

Sounds like a wonderful and fulfilling proposition.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: senseamp
The reason it failed is because Senators with Japanese companies building cars in their states sold this country down the tubes.
UAW excuse is just that, an excuse. They wanted to kill this bill, and they succeeded, for a time. Next year, we'll see.

Exactly, they were sold a pipe dream. Get rid of the competition and we'll build more plants and jobs in your state. Except I thought all automakers were hurting right now. How the hell are the foreign automakers going to be able to invest here when they're taking hits as well?

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: senseamp
The reason it failed is because Senators with Japanese companies building cars in their states sold this country down the tubes.
UAW excuse is just that, an excuse. They wanted to kill this bill, and they succeeded, for a time. Next year, we'll see.

Don't forget German and Korean.

Yep. If the Japanese, Germans and Koreans don't reign in their senators, they may feel some protectionist head wind and more pro labor laws come next year.

So what you are saying is if they dont shape up the same shit is going to hit the fan like it is in Michigan? You sound excited at the possibility of spreading the misery and sending those jobs back across the ocean.

That's where protectionist headwind comes in. Ship jobs across the ocean, pay tariff to import cars.

Sounds like a wonderful and fulfilling proposition.

Oh yeah,
nothing like removing competition from market place, that will give us an incentive to build new and innovative products.

I bet the big 3 will start building low margin fuel efficient cars when their competition is priced out of the market via tariffs.

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: Squisher
However, agreeing to something as nebulous as some undefined parity is not what union is used to doing. They want a number. They do not want their future determined by some arbitrary feeling by someone on an arbitrary day in the future.

So you are saying they would rather be unemployed???

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: senseamp
The reason it failed is because Senators with Japanese companies building cars in their states sold this country down the tubes.
UAW excuse is just that, an excuse. They wanted to kill this bill, and they succeeded, for a time. Next year, we'll see.

Don't forget German and Korean.

Yep. If the Japanese, Germans and Koreans don't reign in their senators, they may feel some protectionist head wind and more pro labor laws come next year.

So what you are saying is if they dont shape up the same shit is going to hit the fan like it is in Michigan? You sound excited at the possibility of spreading the misery and sending those jobs back across the ocean.

That's where protectionist headwind comes in. Ship jobs across the ocean, pay tariff to import cars.

Sounds like a wonderful and fulfilling proposition.

They've been taking advantage of our open trade policies for too long. Japanese and Koreans are very protective of their markets, we should not be bringing a knife to a gun fight. We have more cards than we are willing to use.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: DukeN
The retarded thing in all of this is that the wages and benefits only make up 10% of the overall costs or less. The automakers have done a great job with painting the workers as the cause of this great evil.

Yet you still want us to pay to continue and empower "this great evil"?

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: DukeN
The retarded thing in all of this is that the wages and benefits only make up 10% of the overall costs or less. The automakers have done a great job with painting the workers as the cause of this great evil.

Yet you still want us to pay to continue and empower "this great evil"?

It's "the great evil" to pay pension and healthcare benefits to your workers?
Is the world upside down?

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Interesting to note that conservatives seem to love their little war on the workers. Cheap labor FTL! But then act surprised when the unions and union workers all vote Democrat. I guess the GOP is happy to add another group of voters to the ever-growing list that will never vote for them, eh?

Cheap labor FTL, eh? Well then why don't the Dems rethink their open borders policy? It can't be helping Joe-the-union-carpenter when Mr. Contractor can get the same job done by Juan down at the Home Depot parking lot for $10/hr and no need to pay benefits.

 

[nageov3t]

where does it end? I mean, how much money are we supposed to be prepared to throw at an industry that doesn't even seem to care about saving itself?

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: loki8481
where does it end? I mean, how much money are we supposed to be prepared to throw at an industry that doesn't even seem to care about saving itself?

:thumbsup: Sink or swim. This is a free market.

Sometimes government intervention helps. In this case, I think the government has intruded too far.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: spacejamz

Originally posted by: Squisher
However, agreeing to something as nebulous as some undefined parity is not what union is used to doing. They want a number. They do not want their future determined by some arbitrary feeling by someone on an arbitrary day in the future.

So you are saying they would rather be unemployed???

How do you know that you aren't agreeing to be unemployed if the thing you are agreeing to is undefined?

If I were to ask you to agree that all your posts from this point forward were "reasonable" and that I was to be the one to determine if they met that standard, would you agree to it?

The only person who agrees to something like that is likely someone with a knife to their throat. Is that what a negotiation is supposed to be like?

 

[theeedude]

Paulson is gonna give them TARP money, so the only thing that GOP has accomplished is instead of having a voice over how the bailout is structured and defined, now they will have none, since it's going to come out of TARP, which will soon be run by an Obama appointee. And we know from AIG that that's a gift that just keeps on giving.