100w bookshelf with a 120w/channel AVR

[big_cliche]

Ready to build a medium-high level audio system.

Here's the plan so far:

Receiver:
Pioneer 7.1 channel VSX-1019-AH-K (120w per channel)

Front Towers:
Polk Audio TSi400 speakers (200w/channel power handling)

Center:
Polk Audio CS20 (150w power handling)

Subwoofer:
Polk Audio DSW500 (self-powered)

Surround and Rear:
2 pairs of Polk Audio TSI100 bookshelf speakers (100w/channel power handling)

How will the TSI100s cope with that receiver? They're surround channels, so they won't be used anywhere near as often as the front/center/LFE, and won't be used at all for CD playback.
Thanks

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

That's fine.

I don't know how the Pioneer measured, but receivers usually cannot hit their rated power for all channels. Sometimes not even two channels... or one channel depending on how you're qualifying the rating.

It's more dangerous to run out of power on a receiver, since then the signal gets clipped and that clipped signal can potentially harm your equipment.

Your system looks just fine for receiver / speaker power handling.

If you have a large room and like your movies / music loud, you'd be more in danger of not having a powerful enough receiver vs. having insufficient power handling on your speakers.

How much are you paying for the Polk sub? Is it part of a package, or is that a separate purchase?

You tend to get better bang for your buck from internet direct sub companies. It's not important to match brands for your sub.
SVS, HSU, Elemental Designs, and Epik all have really great subs for the money.

 

[vi edit]

Not an issue. That's peak power from your receiver. And you likely won't ever see anywhere that from your surround channels. And even so, it won't be for extended durations and at volumes enough to be a concern.

 

[big_cliche]

Thanks for the info - it really helped.

The Polk sub is on sale for $399 CAD at Visions. Regular price is $699.

These are in my price range. Are they any better than the polks?

SVS PB10-NSD http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm

HSU Research VTF-1 http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1.html

E-Designs A3S - 250 http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=892

E-Designs A3 - 250 http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=309 - this one has a larger driver than the A3S-250, but it's ported. The last ported sub I had was boomy and "inaccurate" in some areas of the room, weak in others. Of course, it was part of a crappy HTIB. I'm putting the new setup in a much larger room.

Thanks again.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I had the older SVS PB10-ISD and I was quite impressed by it.

You're going to run into some issues with uneven bass through your room no matter what sub you get. Your room plays a big role in how bass sounds in the room and you'll be hard pressed to get consistent bass throughout the room with just one sub.
Boominess is more a function of the quality of the sub and how it interacts in your room vs. ported or not ported.

(There's always room to upgrade later though )

Unless I just don't know enough about that particular Polk sub, I would say that any of those choices you listed would be a great alternative.

Check the dimensions on those subs though. One thing that oftens helps out the internet direct subs is that they often don't make as many compromises about size of the enclosure. (They'll be big and heavy)

 

[PM650]

Personally, I would skip the pioneer 1019. Their 101x series no longer inherits the pioneer elite platform (1018 was the last), so it's basically a 919 for $100 more, with 1080p upscaling & 1 extra hdmi input added. The elite line naturally has a much larger amplifier section (with larger heatsinks to match) & larger power supply. Pretty much anything other than sony is a step up in amplifier quality from pioneer's VSX-x19/1019 line, which would be a good idea if you plan on listening to movies loudly.


Also, recent pioneers have been known to have firmware problems (EDID related), I have no idea if this is fixed in current units so it may be worth researching the particular unit before purchase. Firmware of the VSX-x18 & later is updatable by a thumb drive, but you may have trouble locating the files (assuming updates even exist).

Room correction software is a possible consideration: Yamaha & Pioneer use their own systems (YPAO & MCACC), whereas Marantz/Onkyo/Denon license Audyssey for use in their receivers. Audyssey is more complex in how it attempts to correct for room effects, but you'll find mixed reviews on both sides. Audyssey would be my personal choice, but I don't know how important this type of feature may be to you.

 

[Zorba]

SVS PB10-NSD http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-10nsd.cfm

HSU Research VTF-1 http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1.html

E-Designs A3S - 250 http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=892

E-Designs A3 - 250 http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=309 - this one has a larger driver than the A3S-250, but it's ported. The last ported sub I had was boomy and "inaccurate" in some areas of the room, weak in others. Of course, it was part of a crappy HTIB. I'm putting the new setup in a much larger room.

I have the old style of the A3-300 that is downward firing and is ported on the back. I was actually sitting on the fence forever, until they changed the design and I called to beg for the old one. The gave me the old one no problem and it actually shipped quicker than normal because they had a couple boxes left over. I could not imagine being happier with any subwoofer. No boominess, no muddiness. Plus it makes a good end table.

I visited HSU when I was in LA, the subs sounded great, but I was told they were made in China. As soon as I found that out I decided for sure on the Elemental Designs' sub, which is made in Iowa.

You're going to run into some issues with uneven bass through your room no matter what sub you get. Your room plays a big role in how bass sounds in the room and you'll be hard pressed to get consistent bass throughout the room with just one sub.

This is very true, we recently moved across the country and are renting a pretty small house. The only place to put the sub was in the dead middle of the side wall. We had to turn it way up and it was still lacking. Finally, I convinced my wife to let me remove an end table and put the sub in the corner next to the couch. Man it sounds amazing again, I have since had to turn the gain down to half of what it was. My wife thought was FOS about room placement until she heard it for herself.

 

[big_cliche]

Thanks for saving me from subpar subwoofers and mediocre receivers!

Check the dimensions on those subs though. One thing that oftens helps out the internet direct subs is that they often don't make as many compromises about size of the enclosure. (They'll be big and heavy)

The SVS sub enclosure is definitely bigger. The amp also has more power and goes deeper (20Hz vs Polk's 24Hz).

SVS has some pretty interesting packages in my price range. I was even thinking about going all-SVS with the 5.1 Affordable Audiophile Package (http://www.svsound.com/products-sys-sts01.cfm), but the triple-driver Polk TSI-400 towers seem to be better than the quad-driver CVS STS-01s in nearly every way. At least on paper.

I'll probably wind up getting the SVS PB10-NSD subwoofer and Polk speakers.

Personally, I would skip the pioneer 1019. Their 101x series no longer inherits the pioneer elite platform (1018 was the last), so it's basically a 919 for $100 more, with 1080p upscaling & 1 extra hdmi input added. The elite line naturally has a much larger amplifier section (with larger heatsinks to match) & larger power supply. Pretty much anything other than sony is a step up in amplifier quality from pioneer's VSX-x19/1019 line, which would be a good idea if you plan on listening to movies loudly.


Also, recent pioneers have been known to have firmware problems (EDID related), I have no idea if this is fixed in current units so it may be worth researching the particular unit before purchase. Firmware of the VSX-x18 & later is updatable by a thumb drive, but you may have trouble locating the files (assuming updates even exist).

Room correction software is a possible consideration: Yamaha & Pioneer use their own systems (YPAO & MCACC), whereas Marantz/Onkyo/Denon license Audyssey for use in their receivers. Audyssey is more complex in how it attempts to correct for room effects, but you'll find mixed reviews on both sides. Audyssey would be my personal choice, but I don't know how important this type of feature may be to you.

Thanks for the info. The Onkyo TX-SR607 is also within reach. Any thoughts? It has a lower output than the Pioneer. I know that wattage is far from everything, but is it worth getting towers when the AVR only outputs 90w per channel? Would a triple-woofer tower that's driven at less than half of its max power sound better than a single- or dual-woofer bookshelf?

This is very true, we recently moved across the country and are renting a pretty small house. The only place to put the sub was in the dead middle of the side wall. We had to turn it way up and it was still lacking. Finally, I convinced my wife to let me remove an end table and put the sub in the corner next to the couch. Man it sounds amazing again, I have since had to turn the gain down to half of what it was. My wife thought was FOS about room placement until she heard it for herself.

I had my previous subwoofer right behind the screen. I was trying to follow movie theater subwoofer placement, but that obviously didn't work...lol.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

SVS has some pretty interesting packages in my price range. I was even thinking about going all-SVS with the 5.1 Affordable Audiophile Package (http://www.svsound.com/products-sys-sts01.cfm), but the triple-driver Polk TSI-400 towers seem to be better than the quad-driver CVS STS-01s in nearly every way. At least on paper.

I'm not trying to sell you on the SVS speakers, but how are you comparing the Polks vs. the SVS speakers on paper? What specs?

Thanks for the info. The Onkyo TX-SR607 is also within reach. Any thoughts? It has a lower output than the Pioneer. I know that wattage is far from everything, but is it worth getting towers when the AVR only outputs 90w per channel? Would a triple-woofer tower that's driven at less than half of its max power sound better than a single- or dual-woofer bookshelf?

Receiver wattage specs are very inconsistent. The Onkyo probably has more output power than the Pioneer actually.

Maximum power rating for speakers and how many woofers something has isn't really a good way of figuring out if something is going to sound good.

If you're actually trying to figure out how loud something is going to be (not how good it's going to sound), then power output of a receiver is something to look at. You can plug some numbers into here to see how insignificant 100watts vs. 120watts is for example and what other factors play a large role in actual output.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Sensitivity of the speakers and your distance away from them plays a very significant role in how loud a system can get.

As for what sounds better... a 2-way or 3-way design, there's no absolute answer for you. A well designed 2-way speaker can sound better than a poorly designed 3-way (and vice versa).

One thing that floorstanders with multiple drivers tend to be better at is bass output. If you're going to be using a subwoofer though, a lot of that benefit goes out the window.

 

[big_cliche]

I'm not trying to sell you on the SVS speakers, but how are you comparing the Polks vs. the SVS speakers on paper? What specs?

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/tsi/specs.php
http://www.svsound.com/products-spks-sts01.cfm

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/tsi/specs.php
http://www.svsound.com/products-spks-sts01.cfm

The advertised specs seem pretty comparable.

Driver configuration - I guess I'd pick SVS?
Frequency response - The Polks are advertised at being better... if used with a subwoofer, the bass extension of 44Hz vs 60Hz probably will not matter

The rest look like a wash?

What makes the Polks more appealing to you from those specs?

 

[Zorba]

Just to through another wrench in the works. When I was listening to speakers a couple years ago trying to pick out what I liked, my second favorite was Klipsch. And I listened to everything (in my price range) I could find in any store in Oklahoma, Cincinnati and Indianapolis.

I saw that Best Buy had their Klipsch towers 1/2 off on Black Friday. Last year they repeated some of their Home Theater sells a couple weeks before Xmas. So if you like the sound, you might be able to get a helleva deal on some pretty good speakers. FWIW, I ended up with a Paradigm system with Monitor 7s.

BTW: Don't buy monster cables, use Monoprice

 

[PM650]

Thanks for the info. The Onkyo TX-SR607 is also within reach. Any thoughts? It has a lower output than the Pioneer. I know that wattage is far from everything, but is it worth getting towers when the AVR only outputs 90w per channel? Would a triple-woofer tower that's driven at less than half of its max power sound better than a single- or dual-woofer bookshelf?

YOyoYOhowsDAjello is correct here. The power difference (90 vs 120) will amount to a 1.25dB loss (for an otherwise identical setup); 1dB is around the threshold where you *might* hear a difference in a blind comparison, 2dB you would likely hear. It might also be relevant to mention that the power figures are quoted at certain THD values - there is always a bit more power available at the expense of increased distortion (which may be more acceptable for highly dynamic content only). You can see that the TX-SR607 will provide another 15W if you can tolerate a 10x increase in THD. Eventually, though, the amp will start to clip, which must be avoided at all times. You can find a review of the 607 here.

One thing I've always liked about yamaha & onkyo is they can switch transformer secondaries to reduce amplifier rail voltages for lower impedance loads, reducing the likelihood of overheating, or in some cases damage of an amplifier channel from heavy use. Sometimes you'll hear people say that this reduces dynamic range, but what it really does is limit the same dynamic range for multiple loads, in addition to allowing the amplifier to operate more comfortably with tougher loads.

 

[big_cliche]

Thanks for all of the help. I definitely feel that I'm buying a better audio rig now. Will be getting:

The 7.2ch Onkyo TX-SR607 receiver
The SVS PB10-NSD subwoofer
Polk TSi400 Tower speakers
Polk CS20 center speaker
Two pairs of Polk TSi100 bookshelf speakers

Now I just need to decide between 65" LED-lit LCD and 82" front projection, but that's for another month. I think I can survive with my dim, old 720p plasma for a few more.

Just to through another wrench in the works. When I was listening to speakers a couple years ago trying to pick out what I liked, my second favorite was Klipsch. And I listened to everything (in my price range) I could find in any store in Oklahoma, Cincinnati and Indianapolis.

I saw that Best Buy had their Klipsch towers 1/2 off on Black Friday. Last year they repeated some of their Home Theater sells a couple weeks before Xmas. So if you like the sound, you might be able to get a helleva deal on some pretty good speakers. FWIW, I ended up with a Paradigm system with Monitor 7s.

BTW: Don't buy monster cables, use Monoprice

The Klipsch speakers at Futureshop are far too expensive. There is no Best Buy in town yet.

I'll definitely take a look at Monoprice. Was never considering Monster--even I know something's wrong when I see a $150 "Ultra High Speed HDMI cable"...lol.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Now I just need to decide between 65" LED-lit LCD and 82" front projection

Do you mean 82" rear projection, or is 82" the physical size limit for a front projection setup in your room?