1000 Illegals get in-state tuition in NYC college.

[WhipperSnapper]

I don't have a problem with this at all. All of the anti-illegal stuff portrays them all as criminals or bad people.

They are criminals. They are, in essence, stealing whatever taxpayer funded benefits they receive by being in the United States. Also, by "regularizing" illegal immigration and by breaking into the country in such large numbers they make it harder for the border patrol to catch and focus on dangerous people who are breaking in, such as potential terrorists, drug dealers, gang bangers, and other criminal types.

Well here is an example that some of them are willing to work as hard as anyone else to earn their way. And many people of all races can go to some state type of college for free.

The illegals work ethic is not the issue.

The issue is, "What is in the best interests of the American people?"

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I pay a ton of taxes at NYS 6.8% tax rate. Fuck the illegals. I would far rather that money go to a *LEGAL* inner city kid who needs some help than somebody here illegally.

This is the real tragedy.

All of the money that is being used to help illegals could and should be used to help America's poor. We already have tens of millions of impoverished Americans in this country, so why the hell would we want or need tens of millions of poor Mexicans? Furthermore, the mass of immigrants displaces poor Americans from jobs and puts downward pressure on wages for them.

Mass immigration is a war against America's poor.

 

[nonlnear]

This is the real tragedy.

All of the money that is being used to help illegals could and should be used to help America's poor. We already have tens of millions of impoverished Americans in this country, so why the hell would we want or need tens of millions of poor Mexicans? Furthermore, the mass of immigrants displaces poor Americans from jobs and puts downward pressure on wages for them.

Mass immigration is a war against America's poor.

Oh no, you're looking at it all wrong. Observe:

Before illegal immigration:
Proportion of American poor who are miserable: 100%
Proportion of American poor who are just happy to be here, and are relieved that their squalor is slightly better than the squalor they left: 0%

After illegal immigration:
Proportion of American poor who are miserable: 100-x%
Proportion of American poor who are just happy to be here, and are relieved that their squalor is slightly better than the squalor they left: x%

Illegal immigration: making poverty in America relatively more palatable one starving mouth at a time.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

If we wanted to become India and China - a fucking overcrowded shitstuy - then we can actually give a shit.

Note that the U.S. is, by far, the world's third most populous country--right behind India and China. Also, our population is projected to explode to 420-450 million by 2050. Right now our population is about 310 million and base don Census Bureau data our population increased by 32.7 million in the ten years between 1990 and 2000.

Land is not fucking unlimited - if you're breeding them like animals, then do not expect to enjoy the quality of life once available to a much lower population density!

It's amazing how many people fail to understand that simple Malthusian concept. I think it's because most Americans have been indoctrinated with a touchy-feely blue-sky benevolent universe premise where they believe that there is room for everyone and it's impossible to have enough people. On the conservative side, many conservatives believe that God will provide for everyone and create more resources if we need them.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Most rapists are not criminals. They are criminals in the respect that they raped someone.

They are also good wholesome people--99.9% of the time when they aren't out there raping other people. Some are even productive members of society and have strong families and even children. Maybe we should just ignore that 0.1% of the time they spend raping. To use Classy's logic, we should just forget about their crimes, put it behind us, and give them free college tuition.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

It seems that the primary reasons people are against illegal immigrants is the portion of that population who cause that entire class of people to be perceived negatively.

That may be part of the reason people oppose mass immigration. However, there are also many very legitimate non-xenophobic, non-racial economic and environmental reasons for opposing mass immigration.

Consider this--our nation already has tens of millions of impoverished Americans. So, what sense does it make to import impoverished people from other countries? Wouldn't it make more sense on trying to help impoverished Americans first? Wouldn't it make more sense for low wage jobs to go to impoverished Americans? Is it really good for American construction workers to get displaced by immigrants?

If the end result of allowing someone to immigrate is that an American loses his job, then what good did that instance of immigration do for us?

Also, have you considered the environmental ramifications of population explosion? Do we need more people contributing to the pollution of our air and water? Do we really want to cut down more trees or convert more farm fields for urban sprawl? (People gotta live somewhere--more people means you need more housing.) Some areas of the southwest have been reporting water shortages in recent years.

If you think about this issue in terms of self-interest, Americans' self interest, it becomes clear that we already have more than enough people living on this limited amount of land and that we do not benefit from importing millions of poor people.

This excellent presentation is a must-watch for anyone who is seriously interested in this issue:

Immigration by the Numbers--aka Immigration Gumballs

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Yep, all the fast food restaurants, manual labor, etc. But wait a second - doesn't having all those illegals in the first place generate jobs?

You're assuming that they are performing jobs that would go unfilled. However, we already have tens of millions of impoverished Americans to begin with. The immigrants are not creating or filling janitorial and construction jobs that would go unfilled--rather they are displacing Americans and depressing wages in those fields.

They are NOT stimulating the nation's economy in any way. Rather, they are consuming taxpayer dollars for whatever subsidized housing they use, education for illegal aliens' children, health care costs, and any criminal justice costs they impose. If anything they are stifling the economy by increasing the costs of housing, health care, education, and criminal justice costs. In other words--they aren't doing anything that other Americans would not do--the net effect of having the illegals and poor legal immigrants is to increase the pressure on government expenditures.

If we had 100% employment to begin with then you might have a point. However, we don't. Have you been to the nation's inner cities? How does having the illegals help all of those poor people who need those jobs? Maybe it would make sense for us to end all immigration and instead focus on employing and caring for Americans first.

Someone has to build houses for them, someone has to feed them fast food, etc.

Where do you think the money comes from for that?

And, aren't those illegals who do illegally get jobs also paying taxes? (Their employer is supposed to withhold and pay the tax.) If people are paying them under the table, it's not the illegals who are breaking the law.

Do you really think that people who earn $8/hour pay much in taxes? Could the taxes they would generate possibly be more than what they consume in health care, education, and criminal justice costs? This baldurdash completely defies logic.

Furthermore, how do they add to the taxbase? If an American is displaced from his construction job and stops paying taxes as a result and an illegal takes that same job for less money and pays taxes--how has tax revenue increased?

What is your real reason for favoring mass immigration? Is it a sense of altruism and a feeling that we need to help people in the third world?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

And of those unemployed, very few of them are looking for jobs at McDonalds, Burger King, Popeyes, KFC, ...
When's the last time you saw an unemployed accountant, middle management, engineer, etc., working at a fast food place. Despite high unemployment, I still see signs at fast food places advertising for "Help Wanted"

There are lots of poor youths who would like many of the jobs the illegals are taking and it's not all just fast food jobs--they are also taking janitorial, meat packing, and construction jobs. Haven't you heard or read the stories about construction contractors who cannot compete with the illegals? Have you read the stories about high schoolers who cannot find fast food jobs for the summer?

If we end up having a shortage of Americans for some jobs then the simple solution is for those jobs to start paying more, which is what the free market is supposed to be about. Labor shortages in the case of below-market wages put pressure on employers to increase wages, benefits, and working conditions. Importing millions of poor people allows them to circumvent that and is, in essence, a war against the American poor.

 

[Modelworks]

And of those unemployed, very few of them are looking for jobs at McDonalds, Burger King, Popeyes, KFC, ...
When's the last time you saw an unemployed accountant, middle management, engineer, etc., working at a fast food place. Despite high unemployment, I still see signs at fast food places advertising for "Help Wanted"

This is something related more to how the laws are than people unwilling to work lower paying jobs. Decades ago someone who was unemployed could work odd jobs or minimum wage while looking for a better job. Now if you do that you lose your benefits so it encourages people to stay on unemployment until the very last day before looking for work. In the past if someone wanted to try to make extra money by mowing lawns a couple days a week they could do it and still receive some benefits, now if they catch you working anywhere for any money some states mark you as employed and you lose unemployment benefits completely.

Some states do not even require proof that someone is looking for work or only require they bring in an ad or sample application.

 

[piasabird]

However, a city or a state decides to award educational assistance is up to the state or the city. However, to get a Pell Grant, you have to live by the Federal rules. Every state is a little different on what they will allow.

I feel that if the city or the state is not kicking people out who are considered illegal, then they are assuming responsibility for their education. You dont get the labor without the responsibility.

You will probably not get far in a liberal minded city/state by fighting against their liberal ideas. However, if the Federal Government wants to refuse to support these cities and states with Pell Grants and Federal loans, that will be their problem.

If a state does not have seat belt laws they dont get federal money for highways. They can have similar rules for PELL Grants.

 

[Carmen813]

The last thing NYS needs to be doing for it's economy right now is chasing away a college graduate. We have one of the best state university systems in the country and we're already losing them at a tremendous rate. It's part of the reason upstate NY is in such a damn mess.

Hell, some countries allow individuals who graduate in their universities the opportunity to become citizens.

Also, perhaps some of you forgot a little something about New York State...

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
' With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

[Fear No Evil]

This thread seems to give a good place to start on New York's budget crisis. What is amazingly ironic about this thread, is that many of the wacko libtard progressives who say this is OK because they are 'paying taxes' and therefore earned this education would be first in line to sue/jail the owners of the Hamptom Inn next door to the school if they gave any of these people a job. Why is that?

 

[Carmen813]

This thread seems to give a good place to start on New York's budget crisis. What is amazingly ironic about this thread, is that many of the wacko libtard progressives who say this is OK because they are 'paying taxes' and therefore earned this education would be first in line to sue/jail the owners of the Hamptom Inn next door to the school if they gave any of these people a job. Why is that?

Frankly, from a purely practical standpoint, it makes absolutely no sense to deport someone who has already received the full benefits of in-state tuition. That's just cutting off your nose to spite your own face. It literally makes no practical sense.

 

[OutHouse]

Frankly, from a purely practical standpoint, it makes absolutely no sense to deport someone who has already received the full benefits of in-state tuition. That's just cutting off your nose to spite your own face. It literally makes no practical sense.

it sure does make sense it called enforcing the law. In-state tuition should never have been given to an illegal.

 

[ShawnD1]

Most rapists are not criminals. They are criminals in the respect that they raped someone.

How am I doing?

I once entered a woman's vagina illegally and she was nice enough to let me stay

 

[Carmen813]

it sure does make sense it called enforcing the law. In-state tuition should never have been given to an illegal.

No, it makes no sense. Think about it. They've already received the tuition benefits. Sending them away does nothing to help recover the economic loss, and in fact only compounds it.

As you said, in-state tuition should not have been given to an illegal in the first place. The time to enforce this law was before the crime is committed. Enforcing it afterward is just petty stupidity. We've already paid for it, we should at least get something in return.

 

[Fear No Evil]

No, it makes no sense. Think about it. They've already received the tuition benefits. Sending them away does nothing to help recover the economic loss, and in fact only compounds it.

As you said, in-state tuition should not have been given to an illegal in the first place. The time to enforce this law was before the crime is committed. Enforcing it afterward is just petty stupidity.

So why do many on the left want to punish companies who hire illegals? Does the same logic not apply to business owners? If they hire illegals and they are paying taxes, why bother punishing them after the fact? In fact, if illegals have a job then why deport them at all using your logic?

Maybe we could just fire the administrators of the university that approved their applications? Since apparently thats what the left wants done to private business.

 

[Carmen813]

So why do many on the left want to punish companies who hire illegals? Does the same logic not apply to business owners? If they hire illegals and they are paying taxes, why bother punishing them after the fact? In fact, if illegals have a job then why deport them at all using your logic?

Maybe we could just fire the administrators of the university that approved their applications? Since apparently thats what the left wants done to private business.

I'd be fine with firing the administrators of the university if they broke the law. Similarly, I'd be fine with going after a business owner who utilizes illegal labor. These are not mutually exclusive ideas, the basis is going after the cause of the problem, not the effects. Stop the causes and the effects will go away.

In the case of this student, NYS taxpayers have already funded her education. Sending her back to her home country in effect means that her home country will receive the full economic benefits of the tax dollars NYS residents paid. Do you think that is a better option than trying to open up a path to citizenship or legal residency for this person? I don't, which is why I say deporting her now is merely spiting your own face.

In my view, the solution to illegal immigration is to start by going after businesses/entities that provide them an incentive to enter the U.S. illegally. Close up welfare laws so that illegals are ineligible for benefits. Tighten our border defenses. With all the concerns about the Mexican border, people forget that Al-Qaeda entered through Canada.

For the people already here, we probably need to go about doing amnesty or some other legal alien status. It doesn't have to be full citizenship. I don't think we have the money to deport ~12 million people, and I'm not sure we should spend it if we did. I don't like the idea of the kind of scenes we would see in this country if we tried to round up that many people, and I think a lot of U.S. citizens would get hurt in the process. I mean, such an effort could end being a total humanitarian disaster. Instead, get these people on the books and paying taxes.