100,000 dead? Or 8000 dead?

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conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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Originally posted by: cquark
Crooked Timber debunks Slate's and others supposed debunking:
As Chris said, with respect to the Lancet study on excess Iraqi deaths, ?I can predict with certainty that there will be numerous posts on weblogs supporting the war attacking the study?. Score several Cassandra points for Chris, they weren?t slow in coming. You can have the know-nothing rightwing flack variety or the handwringing liberal variety. And to be honest, the standard of critique is enough to make you weep.

Taking the complaints that seem to have been raised about this study:

?That is, a one in twenty chance that the effect simply does not exist? (from Tech Central Station). The author of the TCS piece appears to believe that because the Lancet study published a 95% confidence interval, there is a 5% chance that there was no effect. The problem with this critique is that it is not true.

?a relative risk ratio of anything less than three is regarded as statistically insignificant?. This is also from TCS, and also, simply, not true. Interesting to note that TCS appear to have upped the ante on this piece of bogus epidemiology; historically when they have been talking about passive smoking, the threshold for relative risk ratios has been two. Which is also bollocks. The TCS author appears to have a very shaky grasp of the statistical concepts he is using.

?This isn?t an estimate. It?s a dart board?. The critique here, from Slate, is that the 95% confidence interval for the estimate of excess deaths (8,000 to 200,000) is so wide that it?s meaningless. It?s wrong. Although there are a lot of numbers between 8,000 and 200,000, one of the ones that isn?t is a little number called zero. That?s quite startling. One might have hoped that there was at least some chance that the Iraq war might have had a positive effect on death rates in Iraq. But the confidence interval from this piece of work suggests that there would be only a 2.5% chance of getting this sort of result from the sample if the true effect of the invasion had been favourable. A curious basis for a humanitarian intervention; ?we must invade, because Saddam is killing thousands of his citizens every year, and we will kill only 8,000 more?.

The estimate of prewar mortality is too low. The idea here is that the sample chosen for the survey had a mortality rate of about 5 per 1000 in the two years before the invasion. And, because the death rate for the period 1985-90 was 6.8 per 1000 according to UN figures, this in some way suggests that the estimates are at fault.

This critique is more interesting, but hardly devastating. For one thing, the contention that the Iraqi death rate did not fall from 6.8 to around 5 during the 1990s is based on ?it must have done? rather than on hard numbers. Since the 6.8 number includes (as far as I can tell) atrocities committed by Saddam during the period which were not repeated in 2000-03, I am less convinced than the Slate author that the discrepancy strikes such a huge blow to the study?s credibility. In any case, since the study compares own-averages of the clusters before and after the invasion, anyone wanting to make this critique needs to come up with a convincing explanation of why it is that the study had a lower death-rate than the national average before the invasion and not after the invasion.

?various bog standard methodological quibbles are really really devastating?. This line of attack is usually associated with Steven Milloy, so I will nickname it the ?devastating critique?. The example I found was here. The modus operandi is to take a decent piece of statistical research carried out by someone who got his hands dirty with the data, point out a few areas in which it differs from the Platonic Form of the Epidemiological Study (if you?re dealing with a really good study, it does your work for you here by alerting you to the specific difficulties), and then say something like ?sheeeesh, how did this ever get published?!?!?. I?ve done it myself a few times, but that?s hardly a recommendation.

The Chicago Boyz blog post is an excellent example of the ?Devastating Critique?. Surprise surprise, estimating civilian casualties is a difficult business. That?s why the confidence interval is so wide. They don?t actually raise any principled reasons why the confidence interval ought to be wider than the one published, and therefore they aren?t raising any questions which would make us think that this confidence interval should include zero.

It gives a different number from Iraq Body Count. so it must be wrong. This critique is also fairly stupid. The IBC numbers are compiled from well-sourced English language press reports. They therefore represent a lower bound on any credible estimate of casualties, not a definitive number. Thousands of people die in the UK every day; how many of them make it into the papers? How may into the Arabic language press?

One can score extra points for intellectual dishonesty on this count by citing Oxblog to try to imply that IBC is in some way an overestimate (and therefore, of course, to push that confidence interval in the direction of zero). As the link I?ve provided shows, the Oxblog critique (which I don?t agree with) refers in the main to whether documented casualties can be blamed on the Americans; there is no well-founded challenge to suggest that the people IBC lists as dead are in fact consuming oxygen.

There is something intrinsically suspect about accelerated peer review. As John pointed out not so long ago, the time taken for peer review is determined by academic procrastination above all other factors. Every academic paper could complete its peer review very quickly if the reviewers got their finger out because they thought it was important. The suggestion that people are trying to make here is that reviewers for the Lancet usually spend six months humming and hawing over the data, to the exclusion of all other activity, and that this process was short-circuited by politically motivated editors wanting to rush something into print without anyone having a proper look at it. No such six month scrutiny ever takes place, and this objection is also Simply Not True.

The 100,000 figure should not have been headlined. Another staple critique of epidemiological studies one doesn?t like. It is true of more or less any study you hear of, since you never hear of studies that don?t have interesting headlines. In all honesty, I don?t like these extrapolated numbers, never have and never will. I don?t like linear models and I don?t like extrapolation. However, it?s a venial sin rather than a mortal one, and I have never, ever, at all, heard of anyone criticising it in a study that they otherwise liked. (Simple thought experiment; if the results of the study had been talking about 100,000 fewer deaths, would this critique have been made by the same people? Like hell).

The important thing as far as I?m concerned is the position of zero in the confidence interval; it seems very unlikely indeed that the process described could have given this sample if it was not the case that the invasion had made the death rate in Iraq worse rather than better. And this conclusion of the study is basically unchallenged. In fact, it?s in a better position than ?unchallenged?; it?s been challenged so weakly and on such spurious grounds that my Bayesian assessment has been updated in its favour, on the basis that if those who disliked the study?s conclusion had any real ammunition against it, the published critiques would not have been so weak.

Good find, thanks!
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
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no answer to my question from all the debunkers...?

I'd like to ask the follow to those who are "debunking" the report of 100,000 dead:

How did we obtain the figures of the people killed by Saddam Hussein? And those tortured by him? Maybe he didnt kill any Iraqi or torture anyone at all. Why believe the reports about him if you have such a hard time believing this report? At least this report was concluded after a "study". No such studies were able to take place under Saddam's regime.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Sultan
I'd like to ask the follow to those who are "debunking" the report of 100,000 dead:

How did we obtain the figures of the people killed by Saddam Hussein? And those tortured by him? Maybe he didnt kill any Iraqi or torture anyone at all. Why believe the reports about him if you have such a hard time believing this report? At least this report was concluded after a "study". No such studies were able to take place under Saddam's regime.
Glad you asked, and thanks for opening that particular can-o-worms.

The numbers of people killed by Saddam came from the liberal press in the times before the war when they were griping about sanctions. The "US" (not UN, but "US" :roll: ) sanctions were "murdering" 3000 BABIES A WEEK and, of course, Saddam was in no way complicit in those murders even though he was building lavish, multi-million dollar palaces while his people were starving to death and allowed to die due to poor medical care. They also listed all of Saddam's genocides and the ongoing tortures and murders, which, amazingly enough, were also the fault of "US" sanctions and action, or lack of action. They waved those figures as validation that sanctions weren't working since so many Iraqis were dying. We were allowing Saddam to murder his people. Not just allowing it, mind you, we were forcing him to do so, and quite carelessly too because deaths just don't matter to us. :roll: I'll also remind you this happened on Clinton's watch, but Bush took the brunt of the criticism, as if sanctions were his fault.

Now when those figures are thrown back at them, the very same ones they claimed were valid previously, they are suddenly invalid; they are a gross overestimation and hype by those dastardly "neocons" so they can steal Iraq. Suddenly, Saddam wasn't nearly as bad as they claimed a scant few years previous. Now it's not even our business that Saddam was killing his people and comparing how many Saddam has killed to how many have died during the US invasion and occupation is a gauche consideration.

Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot?

It goes to demonstrate the intellectual dishonesty and blatantly manipulative lows the liberals and liberal press will stoop to. Focus on death narrowly, raise the emotional spectre of blood and murder, and point fingers of blame, excluding all else that might be relevant, directly at the US in typical Chomsky-ist fashion. And when someone mentions those relevencies, slap the "you dirty US apologist bastard" label on them.

Now Hopkins is at it once more, providing speculative fodder that's vastly overstated by those very saem liberals. Great! Is this going to come back to bite them in the ass too, in time? If it does, it probably wouldn't matter as they never seem to learn. It's why when I see a hand-wringing liberal spouting numbers they may as well be crying wolf for the hundred-billionth time. Sorry, I just don't believe anything numerical that comes from that side of the political spectrum anymore. They have squandered their trust.
 

Sultan

Banned
Feb 21, 2002
2,297
1
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Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Sultan
I'd like to ask the follow to those who are "debunking" the report of 100,000 dead:

How did we obtain the figures of the people killed by Saddam Hussein? And those tortured by him? Maybe he didnt kill any Iraqi or torture anyone at all. Why believe the reports about him if you have such a hard time believing this report? At least this report was concluded after a "study". No such studies were able to take place under Saddam's regime.
Glad you asked, and thanks for opening that particular can-o-worms.

The numbers of people killed by Saddam came from the liberal press in the times before the war when they were griping about sanctions. The "US" (not UN, but "US" :roll: ) sanctions were "murdering" 3000 BABIES A WEEK and, of course, Saddam was in no way complicit in those murders even though he was building lavish, multi-million dollar palaces while his people were starving to death and allowed to die due to poor medical care. They also listed all of Saddam's genocides and the ongoing tortures and murders, which, amazingly enough, were also the fault of "US" sanctions and action, or lack of action. They waved those figures as validation that sanctions weren't working since so many Iraqis were dying. We were allowing Saddam to murder his people. Not just allowing it, mind you, we were forcing him to do so, and quite carelessly too because deaths just don't matter to us. :roll: I'll also remind you this happened on Clinton's watch, but Bush took the brunt of the criticism, as if sanctions were his fault.

Now when those figures are thrown back at them, the very same ones they claimed were valid previously, they are suddenly invalid; they are a gross overestimation and hype by those dastardly "neocons" so they can steal Iraq. Suddenly, Saddam wasn't nearly as bad as they claimed a scant few years previous. Now it's not even our business that Saddam was killing his people and comparing how many Saddam has killed to how many have died during the US invasion and occupation is a gauche consideration.

Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot?

It goes to demonstrate the intellectual dishonesty and blatantly manipulative lows the liberals and liberal press will stoop to. Focus on death narrowly, raise the emotional spectre of blood and murder, and point fingers of blame, excluding all else that might be relevant, directly at the US in typical Chomsky-ist fashion. And when someone mentions those relevencies, slap the "you dirty US apologist bastard" label on them.

Now Hopkins is at it once more, providing speculative fodder that's vastly overstated by those very saem liberals. Great! Is this going to come back to bite them in the ass too, in time? If it does, it probably wouldn't matter as they never seem to learn. It's why when I see a hand-wringing liberal spouting numbers they may as well be crying wolf for the hundred-billionth time. Sorry, I just don't believe anything numerical that comes from that side of the political spectrum anymore. They have squandered their trust.

What a sorry post from a person who wishes to turn human lives into a debate between liberals and conservatives, republicans and democrats. Shame.

btw, none of your post has any factual basis. the UN was blamed primarily for the sanctions. Sanctions included non-supply of medicines. Saddam was as much guilty as the UN. No one blamed the US for the "genocides" - which also based on your article can be disputed ever occured. Saddam WAS supplied with military hardware by the US which were used in the aforementioned disputable "genocides". Thank you for turning this post into Clinton vs Bush issue.

Undeniably, you are a better Lewinsky to Bush than Lewinsky was to Clinton.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
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Originally posted by: Sultan
What a sorry post from a person who wishes to turn human lives into a debate between liberals and conservatives, republicans and democrats. Shame.
If you don't like hearing the truth, don't ask the question in the first place.

btw, none of your post has any factual basis.
Oh yes it does. I thoroughly debated every bit of this crap both for and against liberals when it was ongoing. This is not what I read somewhere, it's what I experienced directly.

Are the liberal claims I'm speaking of full of hyperbole with little facts? Of course, that's precisely the point I'm trying to get across here.

Undeniably, you are a better Lewinsky to Bush than Lewinsky was to Clinton.
:roll:

Whatever. When some people around here have no argument they slam the poster with lame insinuations instead of debating the issues, as you just did above. Congratualtion on demonstrating that very clearly.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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Well it is interesting to note the study indicates a mortality rate of about 7 before the war and the article indicates research showing about 7-9 for the previous 15-20 years.

So what does this tell us? If the mortality rate in a war zone is the same during peace under Saddam. That guy was one bad mother.

I agree the article brings up some glaring issues with this study. When I read the headlines it didnt seem to add up. And they said they were using estimates which put a red flag up. When there is a website dedicated to this that has ~16,000 dead it sent off major red flags when it said 100,000.

That variance is laughable. 8000->200,000?

Why bother to even release such a report. That is like saying the stock market will close between 6,000 and 12,000 this year. Put your money in and find out which way it goes.

It is sad the media ran with this and I heard the Kerry campaign did also. This is the 2nd time in a week the Kerry campaign has jumped on inconclusive evidence and used it as fact. That is the scariest thing about this. If you thought Bush rushed to war, then at this rate we will have invaded or bombed everything that moves because of unconclusive reports being acted on immediately under Kerry.

 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
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Tech Central published an apology from the author of their fallacious article against the Lancet study:
Editor's note: Tim Worstall's piece on the Lancet study from last week resulted in a flood of criticism. We at TCS are letting the author correct the record here:

"Further to my article of Friday on this subject. I'm afraid I mangled the statistical argument. My inadequate knowledge of the subject led me to make an argument that is incorrect. I stand by my contention that there is something fishy about this study (leaving aside the politically motivated timing of its publication, something the author has been clear about himself) yet have to admit that I have not found it, leaving me with nothing but personal prejudice upon which to stand my argument. I would also like to make clear that this subject was not "assigned" to me, the idea, research, argument and errors were all my own, as was my request for this clarification. Just in case you are wondering, being fact checked by the Pajamahaddin and being found in error does hurt and I hope that future writings will be, where necessary, so corrected."
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
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Ahh, intellectual honesty, the trait of a true gentleman. The man has my applause.

-Robert
 

cquark

Golden Member
Apr 4, 2004
1,741
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Originally posted by: chess9
Ahh, intellectual honesty, the trait of a true gentleman. The man has my applause.

-Robert

Agreed. You can maintain your beliefs and admit that you've been wrong.
 

Kermit

Member
Nov 29, 1999
115
0
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Originally posted by: EXman

so under Saddam no one would have been tortured raped or killed c'mon smell what you are shoveling.

So the US is getting competitive with Saddam now? Nice to know. At this rate, they'll surpass him soon.