Do you consider elderly people with senility or alzheimers fully human? Do you consider people with Down's Syndrome fully human? How about Gypsies?
That's just fucked up...
Do you consider elderly people with senility or alzheimers fully human? Do you consider people with Down's Syndrome fully human? How about Gypsies?
That's just fucked up...
WTH is this "full ethical definition" that you speak of, or this fantasy land wherein babies are not recognized as persons?
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
- 13,918
- 20
- 81
we have homeless people dying every day, including children. People starving to death every day, including children. People dying from cancer without any treatment every day, including children., etc etc etc. Cost is the major factor in all those mostly preventable deaths. Money is finite, scarcity is not inapplicable to medical funding. Should we allocate unlimited funds to all newborns and be damned to how much it costs? What if it's 10 trillion? Or "only" 1 trillion? Where exactly does it become moral to draw the line when it comes to money?
took you long enough
edit: this is my favorite topic to troll, since if you even only use scientific terminology, people will become enraged and offended. Its a very closed minded topic, people aren't even willing to discuss the moral and ethical implications of various possible assumptions.
continuing with the prior argument, 'i think therefor i am' hence if you aren't thinking, you aren't.
i don't know enough of either azlheimers or down's to be able to answer anything more than speculation, but based on my limited knowledge and experience they would generally be self aware. terry schiavo, not so much, hence the end result of that case.
I do generally believe that the defining characteristic of personhood is self awareness, however i tend to take a more inclusive view of it. For instance some higher mammals, under this definition, might be considered persons, though that is very debatable atm.
Is it your contention that newborn babies do not, or cannot, think? since brain activity monitoring would instantly demonstrate that they are, I believe the burden would be on you to somehow prove that they are not.
Failing that, the moral and legal definitions for humanity apply, and they are indeed human beings and persons by either definition.
As i said, you're fucking sick. The fact that you're admittedly trolling does not change that in the least.
and your an idiot for thinking so, crybaby. Grow some skin before you move out of your parents basement, you aren't cut out for the real world yet. There's a real world out there where babies die by the millions and here you are crying over even discussing the topic, bitching about how we need to do everything to save every baby when clearly you have no interest in doing so.
Since you are working hard to avoid any tough thinking here, i'm going to go ahead and directly address it. Do you think that being self aware is a major component of personhood and by extension of being human?
After all, I think most people would say that self awareness and the intelligence that goes along with it is the primary differential between humans and other animals, after all without it we are just animals and there is thus no moral problem at all. Is that really what you think? In that case, it's not me, but you that is incredibly sick, isn't it?
that was the original idea, after all i shoudl know one when i see one
edit: ogod are you refering to my username or the lazy spelling?
lets not forget the lack of capitalization eitherI am not saying necessarily that blacks are causing preterm births, but that there could be a biological reason why african americans are predisposed to have preteen babies. Black people have a slightly different genetic makeup and their biology may complicate the problems. It could be sickle Cell or some other unknown factor. Doctors are currently researching this with not many answers. There are too many factors to make snap decisions. Whites and blacks are both having a lot of children outside of mariage and that is nothing new. Might be single moms just have more stress, or that more couples both are working to get by and that makes too much stress.
people are living past what should have killed them?
WTF are you talking about?
it's called progress, dumbass
would you be happier in a world where malaria and chicken pox still killed millions more each year?
I suppose you are going to tell us that babies shouldn't be allowed to take antibiotics?
piasa - I would suggest looking at the percentage of white?black premie babies before you make statements like you did
I believe the real issue here is the lack of care taken or care available to poor pregnant women that leads to pre-term births. The causes of this are too many to list - but that is the root of the problem - as well as dealing with idiots like the op and the gonads that support his barbaric and simpleton views.
WTF are you talking about?
it's called progress, dumbass
would you be happier in a world where malaria and chicken pox still killed millions more each year?
I suppose you are going to tell us that babies shouldn't be allowed to take antibiotics?
piasa - I would suggest looking at the percentage of white?black premie babies before you make statements like you did
I believe the real issue here is the lack of care taken or care available to poor pregnant women that leads to pre-term births. The causes of this are too many to list - but that is the root of the problem - as well as dealing with idiots like the op and the gonads that support his barbaric and simpleton views.
most of the problems have to due directly or indirectly with poverty, be it poor health to begin with, poor diet, poor living conditions and poor hospitals, etc. Not to say that there couldn't be a difference, i just don't see a reason to expect one.
- Dec 24, 2000
- 6,139
- 236
- 106
Sorry I was out of the loop for a few days. That's my point. Where do we draw the line. Hell, I was looking up some support on this thread, and ran across a line that 4 million children die of dirty water each year. Even if I were conservative # and said only 1 Million died each year from dirty water alone that is still a huge number.
Then after reading through the posts, I'll ignore the FU ones, some say "so you want to kill babies" no, but were already killing them. So, were spending billions of dollars should we spend a half a trillion to cut it down to only 500,000 dead ones a year? Where do we draw the line? Is there a line? Ya know if the USA were a poor nation none of these kids would be born anyway. The mother would just try again for a healthy one. The fact we are letting these kids survive is because we are breeding a lot of premature ones and having them survive and naturally (I think) we are selecting (raising) more and more people in the future to have a premature again. So the rate climbs higher and higher. Maybe we will have robot doctors/nurses by then to keep the cost down? Or maybe at that point couples will have the option to just grow your own. Take both the DNA's and basically clone the human and we will almost virtually guarantee a perfect baby every time. After all, nature wanted us to pass on our genes to the next generation, that's whole point. I'm kinda wondering if we had Universal Health Care, would we be spending more or less on these types of kids?
Thanks for all the responses to this. Some were entertaining and some were valid.
Blackjack200
Lifer
- May 28, 2007
- 15,995
- 1,688
- 126
What's the difference between a Corvette and a dumpster full of dead babies?
I don't have a Corvette in my garage.
What's more disturbing than 2 dead babies in a trash can?
1 dead baby in two trash cans.
I don't have a Corvette in my garage.
What's more disturbing than 2 dead babies in a trash can?
1 dead baby in two trash cans.
You wouldn't believe how many stupid expectant mothers waltz into our county hospital at >20 weeks of pregnancy without prenatal care! These women (including illegals) easily qualify for FREE prenatal care by Medi-Cal(medicaid in other states) and they still don't take responsibility for themselves and their unborn child.
Comparing people dying of hunger and people dying of cancer without treatment to premies dying is apples to oranges. The premies are usually already in the hospitals, the mothers having come b/c of being in labor; the doctors are forced to keep them living b/c of their hippopotamus (snicker) oath. It is not really a moral issue in this case, it is more of an issue of legality and liability.
The other problem is that people in this thread are talking about willfully allowing babies to die b/c of lack of funding. It is more willful, in a sense, if you have the subject right there in front of you in the hospital than if you have some people on the streets and in their homes dying. How would a doctor handle a situation like that?
It seems to me that we should have money for all of the above. If the govt handled money better, we probably would. If hospitals did "pro bono" work, it might be less of an issue too. As it is, I don't think it is a good idea to make choices between what lives you save and what lives you don't save. It is best to save the ones you can, and work to save more however you can. In a sense, premies are low hanging fruit.
Did you read the Report???
"Some babies are at higher risk than others, the report says. In the USA, black babies are 1½ times as likely as whites to be premature ? a major reason that black infant mortality is so much higher than that of whites, says Christopher Howson, vice president for global programs at the March of Dimes."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/h...premature-deaths_N.htm
Have you ever visited a Children's Infant ward and looked for yourself?
Preterm Baby birth rate in USA is 13 Million.
more than 1 Million deaths are blamed on this problem.
Read the Report already.
"Some babies are at higher risk than others, the report says. In the USA, black babies are 1½ times as likely as whites to be premature ? a major reason that black infant mortality is so much higher than that of whites, says Christopher Howson, vice president for global programs at the March of Dimes."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/h...premature-deaths_N.htm
Have you ever visited a Children's Infant ward and looked for yourself?
Preterm Baby birth rate in USA is 13 Million.
more than 1 Million deaths are blamed on this problem.
Read the Report already.
you realize that these are global figures right? we can't be a having 13 million premees a year in the united states when only 5-6 million are being born a year total.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
Been doing other things so I haven't checked back till now. Have we figured out how to eliminate people who aren't as intelligent as I am yet?
Oceandevi
Diamond Member
- Jan 20, 2006
- 3,085
- 1
- 0
Arise, wretched of the earth
Arise, convicts of hunger
Reason thunders in its crater
This is the eruption of the end
Of the past let us wipe the slate clean
Enslaved masses, arise, arise
The world is about to change its foundation
We are nothing, let us be all
This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race
There are no supreme saviours
Neither God, nor Caesar, nor tribune.
Producers, let us save ourselves
Decree the common welfare
So that the thief expires,
So that the spirit be pulled from its prison,
Let us fan the forge ourselves
Strike the iron while it is hot
This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race
The state oppresses and the law cheats
The tax bleeds the miserable
No duty is imposed on the rich
'Rights of the poor' is a hollow phrase
Enough languishing in custody
Equality wants other laws:
No rights without obligations, it says,
And as well, no obligations without rights
This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race
Hideous in their self-glorification
Kings of the mine and rail
Have they ever done anything other
Than steal work?
Into the coffers of that lot,
What work creates has melted
In demanding that they give it back
The people only wants its due.
This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race
The kings make us drunk with their fumes,
Peace among ourselves, war to the tyrants!
Let the armies go on strike,
Stocks in the air, and break ranks
If these cannibals insist
On making heroes of us,
Soon they will know our bullets
Are for our own generals
This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race
Labourers, peasants, we are
The great party of workers
The earth belongs only to men
The idle will go reside elsewhere
How much of our flesh they feed on,
But if the ravens and vultures
Disappear one of these days
The sun will always shine
This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race
Arise, convicts of hunger
Reason thunders in its crater
This is the eruption of the end
Of the past let us wipe the slate clean
Enslaved masses, arise, arise
The world is about to change its foundation
We are nothing, let us be all
This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race
There are no supreme saviours
Neither God, nor Caesar, nor tribune.
Producers, let us save ourselves
Decree the common welfare
So that the thief expires,
So that the spirit be pulled from its prison,
Let us fan the forge ourselves
Strike the iron while it is hot
This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race
The state oppresses and the law cheats
The tax bleeds the miserable
No duty is imposed on the rich
'Rights of the poor' is a hollow phrase
Enough languishing in custody
Equality wants other laws:
No rights without obligations, it says,
And as well, no obligations without rights
This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race
Hideous in their self-glorification
Kings of the mine and rail
Have they ever done anything other
Than steal work?
Into the coffers of that lot,
What work creates has melted
In demanding that they give it back
The people only wants its due.
This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race
The kings make us drunk with their fumes,
Peace among ourselves, war to the tyrants!
Let the armies go on strike,
Stocks in the air, and break ranks
If these cannibals insist
On making heroes of us,
Soon they will know our bullets
Are for our own generals
This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race
Labourers, peasants, we are
The great party of workers
The earth belongs only to men
The idle will go reside elsewhere
How much of our flesh they feed on,
But if the ravens and vultures
Disappear one of these days
The sun will always shine
This is the final struggle
Let us group together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race
The report can be misleading I went to the march of dimes website and the 1 million number is a worldwide number. However in the USA the numbers are around 543,000 for babies born too early.
This is what March of Dimes says: "Today more than 1,400 babies in the U.S. (1 in 8) will be born prematurely."
http://marchofdimes.com/premat...y/index_about_5578.asp
This is what March of Dimes says: "Today more than 1,400 babies in the U.S. (1 in 8) will be born prematurely."
http://marchofdimes.com/premat...y/index_about_5578.asp
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