1 kilobyte is ***OFFICIALLY*** (IEEE/IEC/CIPM standard) 1000bytes.

[Lonyo]

A page upon this, with info about the relevant documents, for the non-believers

In the dawn of computing and electronics, computer professionals have noticed that 210 is almost equal to 1000 and started losely using SI prefix kilo to mean 1024. But as time passed, and computers were introduced into mainstream life, and as the ammounts of data people were dealing with grew dramatically, a great deal of confusion arose around this. Prefixes kilo and mega became to mean different things in different contexts. For example when describing computer memory, manufacturers usually use megabyte to mean 220 = 1 048 576 bytes, while manufacturers of storage devices usually use the term to mean 106 = 1 000 000 bytes. These two different meanings of the term can be found in many different areas of computing. And as if that is not enough confusion, a third megabyte of 1 024 000 bytes is the term used to format (3½ inch), "1.44 MB" diskettes.

Faced with this reality, the IEEE Standards Board decided that IEEE standards will use the conventional, internationally adopted, definitions of the SI prefixes. Mega will mean 1 000 000, except that the base-two definition may be used (if such usage is explicitly pointed out on a case-by-case basis) until such time that prefixes for binary multiples are adopted by an appropriate standards body.

In December 1998 the International Electrotechnical Commission (IEC), the international organization for worldwide standardization in electrotechnology, approved as an IEC International Standard names and symbols for prefixes for binary multiples for use in the fields of data processing and data transmission. The prefixes shall be used to indicate multiplication by 210n, where n = 1,2,3,4,5, or 6. The prefixes are as follows:
IEC Prefixes for binary multiples Number Factor Name Symbol Origin SI Derivation
1024 2^10 kibi Ki kilobinary (2^10)1 kilo: (10^3)1
1048576 2^20 mebi Mi megabinary (2^10)2 mega: (10^3)2
1073741824 2^30 gibi Gi gigabinary (2^10)3 giga: (10^3)3
1099511627776 2^40 tebi Ti terabinary (2^10)4 tera: (10^3)4
1125899906842624 2^50 pebi Pi petabinary (2^10)5 peta: (10^3)5
1152921504606846976 2^60 exbi Ei exabinary (2^10)6 exa: (10^3)6

It is suggested that in English, the first syllable of the name of the binary-multiple prefix should be pronounced in the same way as the first syllable of the name of the corresponding SI prefix, and that the second syllable should be pronounced as "bee".

As can be seen from the above table, the name of each new prefix is derived from the name of the corresponding SI prefix by retaining the first two letters of the name of the SI prefix and adding the letters "bi", which recalls the word "binary". Similarly, the symbol of each new prefix is derived from the symbol of the corresponding SI prefix by adding the letter 'i', which again recalls the word "binary". (For consistency with the other prefixes for binary multiples, the symbol Ki is used for 210 rather than ki.)

These prefixes for binary multiples, which were developed by IEC Technical Committee (TC) 25, Quantities and Units, and Their Letter Symbols, with the strong support of CIPM and IEEE, were first adopted by the IEC as Amendment 2 to IEC International Standard IEC 60027-2: Letter symbols to be used in electrical technology - Part 2: Telecommunications and electronics. The full content of Amendment 2, which has a publication date of 1999-01, is reflected in the tables above and the suggestion regarding pronunciation. Subsequently the contents of this Amendment were incorportated in the second edition of IEC 60027-2, which has a publication date of 2000-11 (the first edition was published in 1972). The complete citation for this revised standard is IEC 60027-2, Second edition, 2000-11, Letter symbols to be used in electrical technology - Part 2: Telecommunications and electronics.

On December 11 2002 IEEE-SA has approved proposal P1541 as a Trial-Use Standard for the duration of 2 years. IEEE StandardNo.: 1541-2002, Name: IEEE Standard for Prefixes for Binary Multiples, ISBN: 0-73813385-X. It can be purchased here. The standard was prepared by Standards Coordinating Committee (SCC) 14, Quantities, Units, and Letter Symbols.

 

[bob4432]

0 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048.....

 

[ScottMac]

Welll geez, that sucks. More dumbing down of the system to accommodate lazy new users.

The computer world version of political correctness.

I say "fight it."

Next they're gonna make it a "Geranimals" system... you'll know that "this thing" is compatible with "that thing" because they both have little smurf bears on 'em.

Spongy-headed twinkie-brained ID-10-T committees ... they're getting to be as bad as Congress.

Fight it.

Educate the users to the system, don't drag the system down for the sake of the stupid and the lazy (You know who you are )


.02

Scott

 

[Chaotic42]

I like it. Damned computer industry changing the meaning of the SI prefixes.

 

[ShawnD1]

I don't like it because it goes against the traditional meaning. Just as bob said "0 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048"; it's 1024 because computers work with numbers with a base of 2. Switches are on or off; 1 or 0; 2 options. Those switches when put into a row (binary) make numbers like 2^0, 2^1, 2^2 and so on. You'll notice that 1000 cannot be expressed as 2^x, the closest thing is 1024. Instead of selling things that are 1.024kb they just made 1kb mean 1024 bytes then everything works out. 1024 is 1kb, 2048 is 2kb.
I also don't like it because just as scott said, it will make users even dumber than before. When the world went GUI, computer users got dumber. They went from words (commands) to pictures (icons) - like going from an adult to a 3 year old. Now we're trying to go from a mathematically correct system to a more convenient system. Since when is being correct a bad thing? People will forget the math behind binary and base 2 numbers.


What I think they should do is make a standard not for what 1kb means but for how to sell things. Selling things in mb means they REALLY SHOULD BE in mb, not 1000kb. I have a "60gb" hard drive but Windows says it's only 55gb, what the hell? We need to put standards on the listed size of things, not change what the size number actually means.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
I don't like it because it goes against the traditional meaning. Just as bob said "0 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048"; it's 1024 because computers work with numbers with a base of 2. Switches are on or off; 1 or 0; 2 options. Those switches when put into a row (binary) make numbers like 2^0, 2^1, 2^2 and so on. You'll notice that 1000 cannot be expressed as 2^x, the closest thing is 1024. Instead of selling things that are 1.024kb they just made 1kb mean 1024 bytes then everything works out. 1024 is 1kb, 2048 is 2kb.
I also don't like it because just as scott said, it will make users even dumber than before. When the world went GUI, computer users got dumber. They went from words (commands) to pictures (icons) - like going from an adult to a 3 year old. Now we're trying to go from a mathematically correct system to a more convenient system. Since when is being correct a bad thing? People will forget the math behind binary and base 2 numbers.


What I think they should do is make a standard not for what 1kb means but for how to sell things. Selling things in mb means they REALLY SHOULD BE in mb, not 1000kb. I have a "60gb" hard drive but Windows says it's only 55gb, what the hell? We need to put standards on the listed size of things, not change what the size number actually means.

All they're doing is changing the prefixes to distinguish binary and decimal, they aren't changing the math. It makes perfect sense, and it should have been done long ago.

 

[dexvx]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42
I like it. Damned computer industry changing the meaning of the SI prefixes.

How the hell does it change the meaning? Kilo always meant 1000. They just introduced a new term, Kibi, which means 2^10 (1024). So instead of Kilobyte, we can now rejoice in calling it Kibibyte.

They went from words (commands) to pictures (icons) - like going from an adult to a 3 year old. Now we're trying to go from a mathematically correct system to a more convenient system. Since when is being correct a bad thing? People will forget the math behind binary and base 2 numbers.

I like to drag and drop something to move it to another directory. If you perfer to type a whole sh!tload of commands, be my guess. Since when is being correct a bad thing? Well too bad you're wrong. Giga always meant 1e09, long before computers. You're the one thats wrong.

 

[Medicated858]

I thought dos and dosshell were very easy to work with. And does the IEEE have any authority?

 

[ScottMac]

Kibibyte...sounds like babytalk....completely lame. Another program of the clueless, by the clueless, for the clueless....

Why bother re-defining a convention? All it does it add to the confusion.


As far as Hard drive sizes: There is no hard "formatted" number because each file system type eats a different amount of space for formatting. The same drive formatted in NTFS, *nix, BSD, Old Apple OS, FAT, FAT32 etc would all produce different formatted drive capacities. Drives have always been sold by their unformatted capacity (a 1.4meg floppy is really a 2.0M floppy with DOS/FAT formattting, for example).

It's the only fair way to represent the drive size (unformatted). It's up to the user to know how much space will be lost to formatting. It probably wouldn't hurt to put representitive numbers in a table on the box (as a service to people that just don't know any better).


.02

Scott

 

[Mday]

Originally posted by: Medicated858
I thought dos and dosshell were very easy to work with. And does the IEEE have any authority?

does the IEEE have any authority you say....

newbie.

the IEEE defines many standards that computers use. this includes how decimal numbers are stored in binary systems. this also includes 802.11b (wifi) whose name is IEEE 802.11b. and firewire is IEEE 1394a. and some printers use protocols that are defined as IEEE 1284.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Kibibyte, mibibyte, gibibyte, etc, are NOT new.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: dexvx

How the hell does it change the meaning? Kilo always meant 1000. They just introduced a new term, Kibi, which means 2^10 (1024). So instead of Kilobyte, we can now rejoice in calling it Kibibyte.

The computer industry took kilo, which means x1000 and changed it to x1024. A kilobyte should be 1000 bytes. Kibi isn't new. Those have been around for a while. I'm not sure exactly *how* long though.

Edit: Formatting

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: ScottMac
(a 1.4meg floppy is really a 2.0M floppy with DOS/FAT formattting, for example).

Are you sure? *Every* floppy image I've seen is < 1.44MB, and these are filesystem images - the overhead is included, so according to what you say, they could be up to 2MB.

 

[Mday]

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey

Originally posted by: ScottMac
(a 1.4meg floppy is really a 2.0M floppy with DOS/FAT formattting, for example).

Are you sure? *Every* floppy image I've seen is < 1.44MB, and these are filesystem images - the overhead is included, so according to what you say, they could be up to 2MB.

it's true. though. 1.44 MB floppies are close to 2MB prior to the formatting. it's recognized as some 1.38 MB by windows.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: Mday

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey

Originally posted by: ScottMac
(a 1.4meg floppy is really a 2.0M floppy with DOS/FAT formattting, for example).

Are you sure? *Every* floppy image I've seen is < 1.44MB, and these are filesystem images - the overhead is included, so according to what you say, they could be up to 2MB.

it's true. though. 1.44 MB floppies are close to 2MB prior to the formatting. it's recognized as some 1.38 MB by windows.

Interesting. I wonder what the exact raw size is.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey

Interesting. I wonder what the exact raw size is.

Link

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey

Interesting. I wonder what the exact raw size is.

Link

All it said was "~2 MB."

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey

All it said was "~2 MB."

It's *exactly* approximately 2MB.

 

[lazybum131]

i'm just mad at myself cuz i'm having a really hard time pronouncing these prefixes smoothly! Hard to change habit...

Wow, since 1998, and no one seems to use it at all.

Perhaps we should be the first to start using the 'correct' naming convention since this is a computer forum? We can't expect the masses to ever figure it out and accept it if even the computer geeks don't!

 

[ScottMac]

Fight it.

It's got to be one of the dumbest things that have hit the industry.

IP over smoke signals and carrier pigeons are RFC standards, but noone's rushing out to make it conventional. Resist the idiots and let this pass into its well-deserved obscurity.

"Just say no"

Do you really wanna take computer and network discussions to the point where it sounds like the conversants have a speech impediment?

It's a Bad Thing, help it die out and pass as the joke it is. Ignore it and it'll go away. If you hear someone using these terms, practice your Tae Kwan Leap and give 'em a Boot to the Head....explain to them how absolutely stupid it sounds (and makes them sound).

Resist.


D'ya think it'll be cool hanging around a LAN party talking about the "Gibis" of disk space? How many "MIBIs" of RAM is on that Mobo? Say it out loud a few times.... it's ridiculous.

Resist.

Tell 'em to stuff their Kibis, Mibis, and Gibis ...

Resist

You know it's the right thing to do.

YA.02

Scott

 

[MichaelD]

Originally posted by: ScottMac
Fight it.

It's got to be one of the dumbest things that have hit the industry.

IP over smoke signals and carrier pigeons are RFC standards, but noone's rushing out to make it conventional. Resist the idiots and let this pass into its well-deserved obscurity.

"Just say no"

Do you really wanna take computer and network discussions to the point where it sounds like the conversants have a speech impediment?

It's a Bad Thing, help it die out and pass as the joke it is. Ignore it and it'll go away. If you hear someone using these terms, practice your Tae Kwan Leap and give 'em a Boot to the Head....explain to them how absolutely stupid it sounds (and makes them sound).

Resist.


D'ya think it'll be cool hanging around a LAN party talking about the "Gibis" of disk space? How many "MIBIs" of RAM is on that Mobo? Say it out loud a few times.... it's ridiculous.

Resist.

Tell 'em to stuff their Kibis, Mibis, and Gibis ...

Resist

You know it's the right thing to do.

YA.02

Scott

:Q Sounds like you're standing on a big crate, in the middle of the street, with bonfires all around, testifying to the truth as multitudes of loyal followers gather at your feet...I'm there, dude. :wine:

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: ScottMac
Fight it.

It's got to be one of the dumbest things that have hit the industry.
<snip>

Scott

Ok, then what do you do about the lawsuits?

Do you want all -byte prefixes to mean 2^x rather than 10^x? How would you standardize it?

 

[Mark R]

It's got to be one of the dumbest things that have hit the industry.

I disagree; it's a very sensible thing - one that has been badly needed. The recent lawsuit against PC manufacturers demonstrates this.

For years 'kilobyte' has been based on 1024 bytes, by convention. The problem, is that 'Megabyte' and 'Gigabyte' have had numerous different definitions. I've seen Megabyte defined as 1000 kilobytes (1,024,000 bytes) as well as 1024 kilobytes (1,048,576 bytes). Similar variants are seen with Gigabyte.

Besides, not all mass storage devices are rated in decimal giga/megabytes. CDs use 1 MB = 1,048,576, but DVDs use 1GB = 1,000,000,000 bytes.

Don't forget that not all the kilo, mega and giga prefixes in computing are conventionally binary based. What about data rates - e.g. an MP3 file with a data rate of 128 kbps means 128,000 bits per second - these have always been decimal based.

Using the same prefix to mean different things, even when talking in the same context, is stupid and prone to misunderstandings. The most important thing about the new standards is not that they define mega/giga etc as decimal (as they have always meant that) - but that they add new prefixes which are *unambiguously* binary.

 

[Hector13]

Originally posted by: ScottMac
Kibibyte...sounds like babytalk....completely lame. Another program of the clueless, by the clueless, for the clueless....

Why bother re-defining a convention? All it does it add to the confusion.

but that is exactly what the computer industry did by insisting that 1k = 1024. The SI prefixes have been around forever and are used for many more things than just HD sizes. The computer industry should have never changed the meaning of kilo, mega, etc. to begin with.

As far as Hard drive sizes: There is no hard "formatted" number because each file system type eats a different amount of space for formatting. The same drive formatted in NTFS, *nix, BSD, Old Apple OS, FAT, FAT32 etc would all produce different formatted drive capacities. Drives have always been sold by their unformatted capacity (a 1.4meg floppy is really a 2.0M floppy with DOS/FAT formattting, for example).

I don't think the issue with HD sizes is formatted vs. unformatted. It's kilo (1024) vs. kilo (1000) that is the problem.

 

[ScottMac]

There's a legend on every drive box (frequently preceded by an asterisk "*") that explains that the drive manufacturer's defination of Mega and Giga. OEM drives that don't come in the Retail box are for "people that know what they're doing" ... which implys thay've been around long enough to know what the drive manufacturer means when they say Mega and Giga.

As far as MP3s ... doe KNOWING there's a 24 byte difference change anything about what the audio stream sounds like? Does it make the music sound better because "now you know the digitization rate is 'accurate' "? No. It make no difference whatsoever. The only thing that changes is the description.....you could call it "Berferd" and it'd still sound the same.

Now, with the new descriptions, every floor-salesman and technician is going to end up wasting their time explaining to less-literate users what the Hell a Mibi and Gibi is (and feel stupid doing it becuae they're such lame terms and make you sound like a four year old). Virtually all the current literature, brochures, Help Web site, references, glossarys, etc all make references to Kilo, Meg, and Gig.

Every Mom & Pop, Grandma and Grandpa, and other casual users that have "done their homework" to learn computer stuff to the level of basic competency will not know what a Kibi, Mibi, and Gibi is ... because it's not listed anywhere except a few obscure tech news articles .... this is not "Six O'Clock" News.


Regarding the lawsuits: So what?

People are sued all the time. Just because the manufacturers are being sued doesn't mean the Plaintiff(s) is/are right or correct. As I mentioned above, the manufacturer's have been disclaiming their meaning of "Mega" and "Giga" for years (on the box, and in the literature). Even pulp-rag Retailers like Tiger Direct have explanitive disclaimers at the bottom of the page.

All the lawsuit is doing is raising the prices of the hardware to cover the legal expenses (so a few spongy headed rodent ranchers - that should have known better - can have a little satisfaction). They're idiots and, IMHO, they will lose in court. The whole case has been rendered moot by the IEEE, this International Organization has just completely legitimized the drive manufacturer's claims of capacity.

To be fair, I don't know anything about the lawsuit, and I don't really care. I'm making some assumptions based on the context that the discussion has presented.

The black helo crowd will decide that the IEEE is in bed with the manufacturers to allow them to intentionally short the product by redefining the terms (kinda like the difference beween a "full-sized" car in 1966 and a "full size" car today ... today's "full-sized" car can fit in the trunk of a "full-sized" car from '66).

The bottom line is: IMHO, this is a really stupid thing to be doing. I'll resist using the new terminology, and I'd encourage everyone else to resist as well. Hopefully we can put it in the dust where it belongs. Tens-of-thousands of hours will be wasted trying to clarify the difference to people that have trouble trying to decide what color of background to use on their desktop.

Next they'll wanna only put 10 eggs in a carton, because it's "more decimal" and makes it easier for the poor ignorant chicken rancher to do the math.

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Quote: Do you want all -byte prefixes to mean 2^x rather than 10^x? How would you standardize it?
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It's already conventional, why bother? Things that are more readily discussed in decimal use ^10, things better discussed in binary use ^2; What's the problem with that?

Kibi, Mibi, Gibi (etc)

Bad Idea: Ignore it, resist it, Kill it.

.02

Scott