01 civic, engine knock

[illusion88]

So I have an engine knock on my 01 civic. I took it to a shop and they said I need a new engine. ~$2200 with parts. F that.

Now, I'm not the most car savvy person. I got the knock because I was a bit lazy on the oil change and must have a small leak somewhere. My last change was about 5.5k miles ago. Correct me if I am wrong, but the knock is caused by a rod bearing overheating and swelling and thus causing the rod to knock on the side of the engine block. I should be able to take off the oil pan and replace the rod bearing right? Do I need to pull the engine?

I should clarify, I can't remove or swap the engine myself. I don't have access to an engine hoist. I am hoping that the work can be done from the ground with a few jack stands. Will that wok?

I figure while I am down there I will replace the oil pump too.

I'm good at learning as I go and am decent at mechanical stuff. I replace my break pads, and can do the basic stuff like change light bulbs and fluids.

I haven't Thrown a rod.

Also, I am looking for a guide online that will hopefully tell me how to do the repairs.
Thanks!

 

[fleabag]

I'm curious where this thread will be going but might I suggest you ask this question on Honda-tech first before trying anything?

 

[jlee]

I've not done any bottom end work, but I can tell you it's exponentially more involved than changing brakes, bulbs and fluids. Good luck! :beer:

 

[fleabag]

Gets me thinking, if the OP is capable of doing an engine swap/removing an engine, why doesn't he do the labor of removing the engine and then have the stealership do the work of repairing it? I mean after all, what they're really charging you for is removing the engine, fixing it and then putting it back in.

 

[illusion88]

Originally posted by: fleabag
Gets me thinking, if the OP is capable of doing an engine swap/removing an engine, why doesn't he do the labor of removing the engine and then have the stealership do the work of repairing it? I mean after all, what they're really charging you for is removing the engine, fixing it and then putting it back in.

I wish I could, but I don't have access to an engine hoist. I am a rock climber, so I do have enough rope and webbing I could rig something up in a pinch, but moving it around would be a whole different story.

 

[fleabag]

Originally posted by: illusion88

Originally posted by: fleabag
Gets me thinking, if the OP is capable of doing an engine swap/removing an engine, why doesn't he do the labor of removing the engine and then have the stealership do the work of repairing it? I mean after all, what they're really charging you for is removing the engine, fixing it and then putting it back in.

I wish I could, but I don't have access to an engine hoist. I am a rock climber, so I do have enough rope and webbing I could rig something up in a pinch, but moving it around would be a whole different story.

Well some guy doing an engine swap with a D15Z1 and his CRX HF used a skateboard to move around his engine and used some hydraulic jacks to bring up and down the engine.....so I think it's possible for it to be done. The engine you have is a 1.7L and has the same bore just longer stroke than the D15Z1 that guy was moving. Since these are pretty small engines, I can't imagine they'd weigh more than 150lbs MAX. I helped my friend move his 240SX engine by hand (he had an engine stand and hoist, but for this specific instance we didn't use it) and it wasn't easy but his is a larger engine (and rightly so!).

 

[brblx]

the rod's not knocking on the engine block, it's knocking against the crankshaft because there is excessive clearance between the two parts, i.e. a spun bearing.

on a FWD honda, it's probably not that hard to get the oil pan off and get to the rods. if you do indeed have a spun rod bearing, you can replace it, but it's likely that the crank pin or the rod end is damaged. then you're talking about engine removal as a requirement, you don't want to try and remove the crank while laying on your back.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: brblx
the rod's not knocking on the engine block, it's knocking against the crankshaft because there is excessive clearance between the two parts, i.e. a spun bearing.

on a FWD honda, it's probably not that hard to get the oil pan off and get to the rods. if you do indeed have a spun rod bearing, you can replace it, but it's likely that the crank pin or the rod end is damaged. then you're talking about engine removal as a requirement, you don't want to try and remove the crank while laying on your back.

It would very likely be extremely difficult to pull the crank with the engine still in the car. I was trying to figure out how to do it on my dad's Stealth, and it would require pulling out the drive axles, transmission, exhaust, the oil pump, end seal, timing belt, accessory belts, power steering pump, AC compressor, alternator and the crank pully and timing sprocket. All that stuff had to come off anyway, so we just did the slight bit of extra work to unbolt the motor mounts and pulled the engine.

For the record, OP, I don't recommend just changing the bearing out and letting it dig. The rod knock may go away for a while, but it WILL come back, and with a vengeance, and then you WILL need to pull the engine and have it rebuilt.

Do it once, do it right. Pull the engine, tear it down, have the crank and rod ends checked, have the crank turned and rod ends honed if needed, and use undersized bearings..

I speak from experience. Changed the #1 bearing on the Stealth, my dad drove it for maybe 20 miles and blew it up (spun all 6 - new crank time!).

 

[bruceb]

It might be cheaper to buy a nice used, late model, low mileage engine and just have it swapped in.

 

[ballmode]

Hmotorsonline.com

might as well put a K series motor in there and have more power

 

[lsd]

If it is indeed a spun bearing you can not fix this all by yourself. You will need to take the crank and rod to a machine shop for repair. What you can do if pull the head/accessories off then pull the short block out with the help of a friend or maybe even yourself with the rope contraption. From there disassemble the rotating assembly and take the broken parts to the machine shop.
Honestly you're better off getting a used long block.

 

[darom]

It might be cheaper to buy a nice used, late model, low mileage engine and just have it swapped in.

^^^^^^^^^ That's exactly what I was about to suggest. I see used Honda engines on craigslists all the time. Some of these engines are still in the cars where a potential buyer can show up with the compression tester, listen to the engine run, look at the oil etc.

Or pull your engine out and rebuild it. Check amazon for the Honda engine rebuild books ($15-20)
Sign up for the local college automotive classes. I was 35 when I took mine to rebuild a 383 for my project. The cost was $100 per semester and you have access to the shop's boring, honing, cleaning tools. There were a bunch of young kids redoing their imports' engines. And two old timers like myself working on classics.

A cherry picker will cost you about $150-175 (get the one which folds down for compact storage). The way I look at buying tools is that it is an investment and if I've used these tools at least once, they have paid themselves off.

 

[illusion88]

Originally posted by: Raduque

Originally posted by: brblx
the rod's not knocking on the engine block, it's knocking against the crankshaft because there is excessive clearance between the two parts, i.e. a spun bearing.

on a FWD honda, it's probably not that hard to get the oil pan off and get to the rods. if you do indeed have a spun rod bearing, you can replace it, but it's likely that the crank pin or the rod end is damaged. then you're talking about engine removal as a requirement, you don't want to try and remove the crank while laying on your back.

It would very likely be extremely difficult to pull the crank with the engine still in the car. I was trying to figure out how to do it on my dad's Stealth, and it would require pulling out the drive axles, transmission, exhaust, the oil pump, end seal, timing belt, accessory belts, power steering pump, AC compressor, alternator and the crank pully and timing sprocket. All that stuff had to come off anyway, so we just did the slight bit of extra work to unbolt the motor mounts and pulled the engine.

For the record, OP, I don't recommend just changing the bearing out and letting it dig. The rod knock may go away for a while, but it WILL come back, and with a vengeance, and then you WILL need to pull the engine and have it rebuilt.

Do it once, do it right. Pull the engine, tear it down, have the crank and rod ends checked, have the crank turned and rod ends honed if needed, and use undersized bearings..

I speak from experience. Changed the #1 bearing on the Stealth, my dad drove it for maybe 20 miles and blew it up (spun all 6 - new crank time!).

What causes it to come back? If I replace all 4 bearings (I was told this is what I should do) will the knock come back?

Originally posted by: bruceb
It might be cheaper to buy a nice used, late model, low mileage engine and just have it swapped in.

Cheaper for me to do or cheaper for a shop to do? The shop quoted me at $2200 for an engine swap. $1000 of that going towards an engine they found (76k miles on it, runs great they said). I've got tons of time right now. I am trying to save money. I don't have $2200 to spare, nor will I in the foreseeable future.

Originally posted by: lsd
If it is indeed a spun bearing you can not fix this all by yourself. You will need to take the crank and rod to a machine shop for repair. What you can do if pull the head/accessories off then pull the short block out with the help of a friend or maybe even yourself with the rope contraption. From there disassemble the rotating assembly and take the broken parts to the machine shop.
Honestly you're better off getting a used long block.

If I was able to pull those parts, how much do you think the repair would cost at a machine shop?

 

[lsd]

Originally posted by: illusion88


If I was able to pull those parts, how much do you think the repair would cost at a machine shop?

Depends on the extent of the damage. Machine shops vary in prices depending on your location. Figure about $10-20 to grind each journal and another $10-20 to resize each rod. Plus you may want to hot tank your block (~$40) to remove the bearing material from the oil galleys. Also new rings wouldn't be a bad idea (~$40 to hone,~$40 to gap the rings). Best bet would be to call around to get an idea.

 

[SJP0tato]

Originally posted by: illusion88
What causes it to come back? If I replace all 4 bearings (I was told this is what I should do) will the knock come back?

If the crank is scored/damaged, when you replace the bearing the scoring on the crank will grind against the new bearing until both are in the same place as what you have now.

If all that's wrong with the motor is in the bearings area, having the crank micropolished and replacing with the appropriately sized bearings (going by the indexes stamped on the block/crankshaft and then confirming with plastigauge) you have a good chance of making a successful repair.

On the other hand, if there's damage in the head and reciprocating assemblies there you won't know until you fire it back up. Also if there's metal grains from the crankshaft/bearings floating around the engine it can cause extreme wear on other components until they break too. This is the main reason why it's usually better to just get a cheap used Honda motor and swap it in vs trying to rebuild what you have.

It's not just the man-hours, it's having the tools and knowledge to properly rebuild a motor.

 

[exdeath]

Thing is if it's bottom end knock you'll need to pull the engine anyway; it would actually be easier and safer than messing with the crank from under depending on how it's sitting (cross members, axles, suspension, steering rack all in the way). Fixing rod bearings alone is pretty easy (once you get to them); get the crank machined .010 and get new matching .010 bearings. Problem is, as mentioned above, especially if it's been driven a lot while knocking, is that the oil becomes an abrasive paste that pretty much destroys everything else in the engine, and will just eat your new bearings.

Better off with a new engine, and you should be able to find one for less than $1000 if you are willing to go to a bone yard and pull it out yourself. Either way it's coming out, so get your mind around that and prepare to get/borrow the hoist and engine stand if you want to do it yourself. DIY isn't always cheaper when it's a one time job requiring specialized single purpose tools that you'll likely never use again at home.

And when I say easy, I mean that someone who's never worked on cars but has mechanical common sense and can follow a spec sheet will be able to do it, but it's still going to take several hours if not days. 95% of these things is bending over backwards trying to get to the thing you want to replace without taking half the car apart. If you don't have tools or experience, expect to go 5% per day before running into a wall of not having the right tool or non-reusable parts like gaskets, or breaking/rounding off bolts, breaking connectors, etc.

 

[Raduque]

Originally posted by: SJP0tato

It's not just the man-hours, it's having the tools and knowledge to properly rebuild a motor.

This. It also helps if you're not trying to cheap out on it while KNOWING what you should be doing to fix it right.