‘Silent Sam’ Confederate Statue

[Blackjack200]

There were loyalists to the British crown in the United States. I imagine the fates of the Founding Fathers would be quite different had we lost the revolution.

For the Berlin Wall, there was no remaining authority willing to defend it.

The victors get to write history. The victors of the Civil War chose reconciliation, and now we have two competing narratives born of historical ignorance.

There is no consensus on Confederate leaders, at least not yet. To some, they are traitors, which is a modern revisionist sentiment that ignores reconciliation and has only recently become more vocal in response to the alt-right.

To others, they were the defenders of states’ rights, the “Lost Cause” revisionist sentiment, which ignores the white supremacism implications of Confederate symbols.

I mean, I personally care much less that they were traitors than that they were willing to kill people to protect the institution of slavery.

John Brown was a traitor, but he's alright with me.

 

[Jhhnn]

I mean, I personally care much less that they were traitors than that they were willing to kill people to protect the institution of slavery.

John Brown was a traitor, but he's alright with me.

John Brown was a visionary & a zealot. He still deserved to hang.

 

[Blackjack200]

John Brown was a visionary & a zealot. He still deserved to hang.

One of the most marked characters, and greatest heroes known to American fame.
Frederick Douglass

That new saint, than whom nothing purer or more brave was ever led by into conflict and death, — the new saint awaiting his martyrdom, and who, if he shall suffer, will make the gallows glorious like the cross.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

I looked at the traitor and terrorizer with unlimited, undeniable contempt.
John Wilkes Booth

 

[theeedude]

There were loyalists to the British crown in the United States. I imagine the fates of the Founding Fathers would be quite different had we lost the revolution.

For the Berlin Wall, there was no remaining authority willing to defend it.

The victors get to write history. The victors of the Civil War chose reconciliation, and now we have two competing narratives born of historical ignorance.

There is no consensus on Confederate leaders, at least not yet. To some, they are traitors, which is a modern revisionist sentiment that ignores reconciliation and has only recently become more vocal in response to the alt-right.

To others, they were the defenders of states’ rights, the “Lost Cause” revisionist sentiment, which ignores the white supremacism implications of Confederate symbols.

I love the smell of "both sides" horse manure in the morning.

 

[Jhhnn]

One of the most marked characters, and greatest heroes known to American fame.
Frederick Douglass

That new saint, than whom nothing purer or more brave was ever led by into conflict and death, — the new saint awaiting his martyrdom, and who, if he shall suffer, will make the gallows glorious like the cross.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

I looked at the traitor and terrorizer with unlimited, undeniable contempt.
John Wilkes Booth

He had to hang for the people who were killed in his attack on Harper's Ferry. Justice was served & a martyr created all at the same time. He was right when he said "the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away but with blood". The Civil War remains our bloodiest conflict in history with 600,000 dead. There are apparently damned fools out there who'd do it again to re-establish white supremacy & monuments to the leaders of the confederacy are a powerful symbol & a rallying point for their desires.

 

[Blackjack200]

He had to hang for the people who were killed in his attack on Harper's Ferry. Justice was served & a martyr created all at the same time. He was right when he said "the crimes of this guilty land will never be purged away but with blood". The Civil War remains our bloodiest conflict in history with 600,000 dead. There are apparently damned fools out there who'd do it again to re-establish white supremacy & monuments to the leaders of the confederacy are a powerful symbol & a rallying point for their desires.

Weird that John Brown had to hang for the people who were killed in his attack on Harper's Ferry, but no Confederate Officers had to hang for killing hundreds of thousands of people in an effort to keep people enslaved.

---

Had I so interfered in behalf of the rich, the powerful, the intelligent, the so-called great, or in behalf of any of their friends, either father, mother, brother, sister, wife, or children, or any of that class, and suffered and sacrificed what I have in this interference, it would have been all right; and every man in this court would have deemed it an act worthy of reward rather than punishment. This court acknowledges, as I suppose, the validity of the law of God. I see a book kissed here which I suppose to be the Bible, or at least the New Testament. That teaches me that all things whatsoever I would that men should do to me, I should do even so to them. It teaches me, further, to "remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them." I endeavored to act up to that instruction. I say, I am yet too young to understand that God is any respecter of persons. I believe that to have interfered as I have done as I have always freely admitted I have done in behalf of His despised poor, was not wrong, but right. Now, if it is deemed necessary that I should forfeit my life for the furtherance of the ends of justice, and mingle my blood further with the blood of my children and with the blood of millions in this slave country whose rights are disregarded by wicked, cruel, and unjust enactments, I submit; so let it be done!
-John Brown

 

[Starbuck1975]

I love the smell of "both sides" horse manure in the morning.

Yawn, the counter argument of those with nothing interesting to say. What was incorrect in what I wrote?

 

[Jhhnn]

Weird that John Brown had to hang for the people who were killed in his attack on Harper's Ferry, but no Confederate Officers had to hang for killing hundreds of thousands of people in an effort to keep people enslaved.

The Union did not hang John Brown. The slave state of Virginia did. Had they not they probably would have been dealing with a different kind of insurrection from their own citizens.

So get off the recriminations about Union good will & mercy towards their vanquished brothers. It's ancient history.

 

[woolfe9998]

Let's say you're a black person. Now imagine seeing a statue that celebrates the people who oppressed you, because they oppressed you, every single day. Would you just shrug and say "oh well, at least birds are taking a shit on them every day?"

Hell no. The very existence of those statues is a slap in the face to every black person in the country. And it's telling that Republicans in former Confederate states purposefully obstruct legal paths to tearing the statues down, and rig elections to make sure you can't vote people in who would order those statues removed. These Republicans love racism, they thrive on it, and the statues to them represent a way of telling black people to 'know their place.'

It's rather sad that you've been conditioned to think all civil disobedience involving destruction of property amounts to "mobs." When you're faced with a clear injustice and the political system purposefully silences your voice to maintain that injustice, acts like this are frequently your only recourse.

Absolutely. If this was Jews having to look at a Swastika flag flying in front of the local town hall, I don't think anyone would fail to understand the problem. Yet the analogy is perfect.

 

[theeedude]

Yawn, the counter argument of those with nothing interesting to say. What was incorrect in what I wrote?

Times change. Just because these statues were allowed and welcomed during Jim Crow era (partly because those who objected to them could be lynched or beaten with impunity), doesn't mean modern day cities and institutions who don't want to should be forced to keep them in their most prominent places.

 

[Jhhnn]

Times change. Just because these statues were allowed and welcomed during Jim Crow era (partly because those who objected to them could be lynched or beaten with impunity), doesn't mean modern day cities and institutions who don't want to should be forced to keep them in their most prominent places.

Too bad we can't just put a federal bounty on their destruction... Nah. The idiots would probably start the Civil War all over again.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Times change. Just because these statues were allowed and welcomed during Jim Crow era (partly because those who objected to them could be lynched or beaten with impunity), doesn't mean modern day cities and institutions who don't want to should be forced to keep them in their most prominent places.

We are in violent agreement

 

[Starbuck1975]

Just because the Union chose reconciliation over revenge does not mean that the insurrectionists were not traitors. They were, quite by definition.

Not true. The Army, particularly the Army War College and other institutions of military strategy, extend to Confederate generals a considerable amount of respect, yet the same does not apply to Benedict Arnold.

Maybe, just maybe, the historical context of the Civil War is a bit more complex than modern revisionist narrarives.

 

[Jhhnn]

Not true. The Army, particularly the Army War College and other institutions of military strategy, extend to Confederate generals a considerable amount of respect, yet the same does not apply to Benedict Arnold.

Maybe, just maybe, the historical context of the Civil War is a bit more complex than modern revisionist narrarives.

So what? That in no way contradicts what I said. Benedict Arnold is immaterial to the subject of southern monuments.

 

[theeedude]

Not true. The Army, particularly the Army War College and other institutions of military strategy, extend to Confederate generals a considerable amount of respect, yet the same does not apply to Benedict Arnold.

Maybe, just maybe, the historical context of the Civil War is a bit more complex than modern revisionist narrarives.

I am sure war colleges respect Nazi generals too, but professional respect is not enough to wash away the shame from the cause they fought for.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I am sure war colleges respect Nazi generals too, but professional respect is not enough to wash away the shame from the cause they fought for.

While military colleges study Rommel, von Rundstendt, Kesselring and Model, you will not find commemorative prints hanging in their honor or barracks named after them. The same cannot be said for Confederate generals.

Confederate generals have been held in high regard, uniquely so given they were enemy combatants, independent of the intent behind the statues erected in their honor.

 

[Starbuck1975]

So what? That in no way contradicts what I said. Benedict Arnold is immaterial to the subject of southern monuments.

Sure it does and yes he is if we are using traitor as a qualifier.

 

[theeedude]

While military colleges study Rommel, von Rundstendt, Kesselring and Model, you will not find commemorative prints hanging in their honor or barracks named after them. The same cannot be said for Confederate generals.
Confederate generals have been held in high regard, uniquely so given they were enemy combatants, independent of the intent behind the statues erected in their honor.

Doesn't change the fact that they fought for slavery. And the days of pretending otherwise are over.

 

[Alpha One Seven]

GOP explicitly banned these statues from being relocated to museums, so this nonsense about preserving them as historical objects or honoring the dead is a bunch of lies.
https://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/PDF/ByChapter/Chapter_100.pdf

They are very specifically forcing local communities to provide places of prominence and honor for these statues of traitors. But looks like the people have found a loophole

It seems that their anger and aggression was to the legislators and should have been focused on them and not an inanimate piece of art that did no one any harm. People can be very stupid but losing sight of the problem and taking out aggression on art is a no win for everyone.

 

[theeedude]

It seems that their anger and aggression was to the legislators and should have been focused on them and not an inanimate piece of art that did no one any harm. People can be very stupid but losing sight of the problem and taking out aggression on art is a no win for everyone.

Seems like a win for everyone except white supremacists who want to use this "art" to project power. The "art" was removed but not destroyed. Now it can be preserved until such time that idiotic Republican law is repealed and it can be placed in a museum or a confederate cemetery where it belongs. Of course if NC GOP insists on forcing the university to put it back up, it might not survive for long, but that would be on them. But as things stand now, It's really the best possible resolution.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Doesn't change the fact that they fought for slavery. And the days of pretending otherwise are over.

That is an unsurprisingly myopic understanding of the Civil War.

 

[Josephus312]

That is an unsurprisingly myopic understanding of the Civil War.

No, those are the ACTUAL facts of the Civil War as evidenced by the statements from the participating southern states.

Don't do this, all respect is lost if you deny that the main reason and for some states the ONLY stated reason was to keep slaves becasue this is beyond question.

 

[Josephus312]

It seems that their anger and aggression was to the legislators and should have been focused on them and not an inanimate piece of art that did no one any harm. People can be very stupid but losing sight of the problem and taking out aggression on art is a no win for everyone.

Yes, next up, let's ensure that a statue of OBL is raised on the grounds of the WTC, dont' you fucking whine about it either, it's there so you don't forget your fucking history AND a piece of art.

 

[Meghan54]

That is an unsurprisingly myopic understanding of the Civil War.

And I'm willing to wager that you didn't read a damned thing I posted/linked. The Civil War was completely about slavery, about its social constructs, its economic constructs. Nothing else. Full stop.

 

[Bitek]

That is an unsurprisingly myopic understanding of the Civil War.

And I'm willing to wager that you didn't read a damned thing I posted/linked. The Civil War was completely about slavery, about its social constructs, its economic constructs. Nothing else. Full stop.

Trying to make the reasons for the civil war more complicated just sounds like an opportunity to obfuscate and make the Confederate cause more noble than it was.

They fought for slavery under a white supremacist banner. They would have burned the northern cities, desecrated the US Constitution, and enslaved the free black folk just as surely as Hitler would have murdered the remaining Jews in Europe. They had designs on the enslaving Caribbean too.

Fuck em. Glad they were killed and lost. It was a blessing to the world.

Only reason they were given any respect was we had to live with their kin under the same flag after those traitors were defeated.