I liked this a lot, but you have to be into games from that era to really appreciate it.Barely scratched the surface at this point but so far the stand-outs are:
(1) MUCH better and sharper graphics
(2) A brutal reminder of just how far we've come especially along the lines of realistic physics in games .... particularly in terms of NPC's!
Def enjoying it so far though .... will report back!
I'm now playing Trine 5. Great continuation of the series, takes all the good things from Trine 4 and adds many new abilities and puzzle types. It's even better in co-op and is almost designed for that.
- Mar 4, 2011
- 11,122
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If you're a Doom I & II purist, you may not like Doom Eternal. It's got double dash, double jump, and stupid amount of platforming. Litearlly doing olympics with double beam bars.
Am I playing mario? I ended up quitting.
Doom 2016 was much better and less arcadey.
Stg-Flame
Diamond Member
- Mar 10, 2007
- 3,521
- 485
- 126
I'm one of the few who never played Doom 1 or 2 other than maybe ten minutes at a friend's house when I was a little kid so I'll never compare any of them to the originals.
I'll likely just hold off on that for a while until I see it on a $5 or $10 sale in the future. It's not one of those games where I feel like I have to play it sooner than later.
Just for fun, play the originals with enhanced graphics and the IDDQD cheat code. That's the best way to have fun in the original Doom I/II.
GZDoom has a Vulkan renderer I think.
- Mar 4, 2011
- 11,122
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I realized Doom II has a special place because no other games have been able to replicate that feeling. The enemies are bullet-spongy just enough to be very satisfying. You can get a arena full of cacodemons, hell knights, etc and you can maneuver your way around to kill them all.
Serious Sam isn't the same. The levels are simple, and the swarming is too frantic.
sdifox
No Lifer
- Sep 30, 2005
- 95,141
- 15,210
- 126
Wolf3D/Spear of Destiny and also the Commander Keen series had amazing playability. I wish ID hadn't lost their way after Quake 2. Absolutely disliked Q3Arena. Instead got addicted to Unreal Tournament and UT2003 (not 2004). Then Doom 3 was ok. Quake 4 was better. The Riddick game actually spanked Doom 3 in the visuals department despite the latter's insane hype and fake demos with excellent shadows and lighting running on a Geforce 3. The final game did not seem anything like the tech demos they showed off. Didn't get to try out Rage/Rage 2 or the Doom reboots.
- Mar 4, 2011
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Q4 was surprisingly fun. Now that's a fine storytelling without going all super nerdy. Stroggification is awesome. I should play that again actually.
GodisanAtheist
Diamond Member
- Nov 16, 2006
- 6,856
- 7,241
- 136
-Honestly, with some super basic QOL improvements (mouse look and modern res support) the OG doom games hold up astonishingly well today.
I played a ton of Doom 1/2/Ultimate as a kid but I only actually beat the games using GZ Doom (or something similar) relatively recently (5 years ago or so).
Basically with modern QOL D1/2 go from being the OG shooter to being the best boomer shooter around.
It's shocking how even basic core gameplay elements like making enemies fight each other feel so revolutionary because it's still so rare in modern shooters.
Never played Doom 1 and 2. I must be one of the very few who liked Doom 3. Really liked the super-creepy, slow-paced atmosphere. For some reason I seem to like spooky, creepy, but slowish-paced type of games, but really don't much care for the constant action ones like Doom 2016 or Serious Sam. Those things are to games what early 90s rave was to music.
Played:
Resident Evil 2/3,
Silent Hill,
Riddick (most of it is slow gameplay) ?
By the way, you may find this useful: https://store.steampowered.com/curator/11519873-Surreal-and-Creepy-games/
GodisanAtheist
Diamond Member
- Nov 16, 2006
- 6,856
- 7,241
- 136
-Doom 3 was a fine game. The issue, as always when a series is rebooted after 10+ years, is that not everyone agreed that it was a Doom game (me included).
When I think of Doom, I think of fast paced, balls to the wall action. Ducking and weaving through hordes of enemies, strategically positioning myself between enemies so their friendly fire does the work for me. Getting into the face of a demon, unloaded two barrels of righteous vengeance in their stupid demonic faces, then backpedaling hard and trying to get some distance.
The OG Dooms were incredibly kinetic games, and Doom 2016 captured that element incredibly well (which is why it is so well liked).
Doom 3 feels like a whole game made out of those annoying bits of Doom 1/2 where you go into a room, the lights go out, and the walls all open up. Except this time it was just one wall with one monster...
Painkiller captures this feeling better than other games of that era. Serious Sam just throws too many waves of enemies at you.
I liked Doom 3 a lot but it was a very different type of game than any of the other Dooms and closer to System Shock 2 in some ways.
Zenoth
Diamond Member
- Jan 29, 2005
- 5,192
- 191
- 106
Just wanted to chime in regarding DOOM, 'boomer' shooters (hate this term, just like "shmups", with a passion) and modern FPSes 'by comparison'. Now fair warning: I'm on DOOM Defense mode right now, everything that follows is not for anyone remotely thinking that DOOM is "outdated" or "bad". Don't bother continuing past this point if that's the case. Also, I'm getting old and jaded when it comes to modern FPSes (especially, and specifically the ones "trying to be like DOOM").
I think DOOM is still possibly the greatest FPS of all time. And when I say "DOOM", to me anyway, it means Ultimate DOOM (not the Shareware version, but the actual full game), DOOM II: Hell on Earth and yes even Final DOOM along with DOOM 64. But alright, if I had to pick _one_ of them? It has to be DOOM 2. Now, to me, those games consist of the "Real DOOM games". It's where it began, and where it stopped being good, or rather I should re-phrase it into "it's where it stopped being DOOM". I know Final DOOM is a little contentious I guess, the biggest problem was its release date (way more than the levels design, or the 'lack' of new things in general). By Mid '96 when it came out, the 'DOOM Phenomenon' ran out of gas and the likes of System Shock, Alien Vs Predator, Rise of the Triad and Dark Forces were taking their space and making heads turn. And Duke Nukem 3D (which preceded Final DOOM by about 4 months) stole the show. And perhaps even more important than Duke being out by then, Final DOOM also happened to come out pretty much _the same month_ as none other than the first _Quake_, of all things. So to say that Final DOOM was 'shrugged' and overlooked is probably an understatement. Not by _me_ though, I absolutely loved it as much as I did DOOM 1 and 2. And DOOM 64 is not something I'm willing to 'debate about' in case someone reads this and feels like going on a rampage to bash it. It had fantastic level design, superb atmospheric music and ambiance, and kept the formula intact.
DOOM 3 was... how can I put it. It was [too] different. I disliked it. But I didn't dislike it "just because it wasn't like the old games", no (that was part of it only). I actually disliked DOOM 3 because it tried way too hard with its "creepy atmosphere". I mean there's a point where you gotta stop spreading it on your toast, man; or might as well just scoop up the peanut butter directly from the pot and forget the toast. I saw practically every Aliens-style jump scares coming from miles away, maybe 1 or 2 of them in the game sort of "got me", that's about it. But that's also all the game really was trying to _do_ and to _be_, to be creepy, with a dense atmosphere. It didn't offer anything new to the series besides commiting the biggest Sin of all: including a story. A _story driven_ DOOM, that plays slow as molasses, constantly tries hard to be "zcary" with flashing broken lights in dark hallways and making enemies spawn behind you or make them break through things to get you. When I played DOOM 3 I wasn't 10 years-old anymore, and I had my fill of "horror" and jump scares from Silent Hill 1 and the Resident Evil games many years prior. It didn't have the 'intented effect' on me. The only thing I liked about DOOM 3 is the environment they made for the "Hell levels" near the end... it was alright. And Super Turbo Turkey Puncher was the real show stealer. Now ok, the main menu music was good, there's that (but that music was NOT a reflection of the game at all). For me, DOOM 3 is where it changed for the worse, it just didn't work, it wasn't "DOOM" to me. It was just a 'tech demo' they slapped the name DOOM onto (and to be honest at the time I wasn't _that_ impressed by the graphics; it was good on its own, but because the game itself bored me to tears my impression of the engine or what the game was "capable of" visually was sorely dilluted; nah, by comparison during those years I was actually way more impressed by the first FarCry, instead).
Just like CP5670 above mentioned (and I'm glad someone went there, finally), the only "modern" (not anymore) full 3D FPS game that can rival the "feeling" I had when playing any of the DOOM games is Painkiller (the original or 'Black Edition' now I believe, not sure about whether or not they renamed or re-released it by now; Painkiller along with the Battle out of Hell expansion, anything that follows is not worth talking about). Now, Painkiller isn't identical sure, it does have its own identity (feel) so to speak; but by comparison there is _nothing_ since Painkiller that can replicate the OG DOOM games, as much as nothing being able to actually replicate Painkiller itself, either. What made, and still makes the OG DOOMs so good to me, which I came to realize more in the past 10 years or so (as 'modern' FPSes keep being vomited at us) is their _simplicity_. The formula was straightforward. I feel like I must come back on this, because it cannot be understated. The series wasn't just about "killing hordes of enemies" like perhaps some would think. It was _part of it_ yeah (and not every time, nor in every Difficulty levels either). It was surprisingly tactical (again, mostly dependent on chosen Difficulty levels), you _did_ have to 'survive' nonetheless, you _could_ run out of ammo for your best weapons, or run out of health kits to pick up, or pick your berserk powerup in the wrong moment when you could have used it later. It's not because "it was simple" that it was "bad" (today, I feel, it WOULD be an argument used against it, "it's so old and simple, all you did was killing enemies and opening doors").
There's no _need_ to over-saturate modern FPS games with boring stories, cut-scenes, idiotic characters (stupid writing, because said stupid story is there) nor is it necessary to try and implement "verticality" or grabbing on ledges, or punching enemies like they're Pinatas to make ammo rain like it's Christmas in an attempt to artificially make the game tougher. That's why I liked Painkiller so much since it was so simple (even if there's no color-coded doors + cards system, heck it was even _simpler_ than DOOM in that regard). The "old school" DOOM formula of "Open color-coded doors with same-color cards, find your way through, exit" followed by seeing your play stats, enemies kills, secrets found, items pickups percentage; post-match arcade stats-style is SO effective to me. It's direct-to-the-point, no shenanigans to think about (outside of "huh, damn, didn't find all secrets"). Nowadays I play Brutal DOOM (with very specific settings to avoid some more "modernized" additions like re-loading or 'sync kills', etc), and occasionally try other WADs, but this whole "game mechanic" that is inherant and almost 'sacred' by now for those games should never be touched. Any WADs I tried where it was modified or removed made me stop playing them practically on the spot. If you want to be DOOM, then be DOOM.
Now, do I "hate" every modern FPSes? No. I actually like a good bunch. What I hate is when a modern FPS game pretends it was 'inspired by DOOM', or the devs talk about "wanting to bring the feeling of DOOM" in said game, but seemingly go against every possible thing that made DOOM actually DOOM, makes me lose a fuse or two. You know... "Hey, let's make DOOM again, but let's also bring in platforming, grabbing on ledges because it's so modern to do that, let's lock the player into wave-based spawn rooms until it's cleared before they can proceed, OH OH! Guys, also, let's remove most ammo pick ups from the map and instead force the player to punch enemies like Pinatas to get ammo, interrupting the flow of the game at the same time, OH OH Guys! GUYS Oh my GAWD here's another idea, let's make the most flaccid story possible to force it down their throat with cut scenes and lots of dialogue and boring NPCs nobody gives a shit about! FUCK yeah! Now THAT is DOOM! That's what it was always about! OH and let's make sure our game is NOT for anyone for ever played those old DOOM games though, those were bad and simple, it's not like our new DOOM game is called DOOM because of those old DOOM games anyways."
With all this said, currently, I'm playing Dragon's Dogma 2.
I think DOOM is still possibly the greatest FPS of all time. And when I say "DOOM", to me anyway, it means Ultimate DOOM (not the Shareware version, but the actual full game), DOOM II: Hell on Earth and yes even Final DOOM along with DOOM 64. But alright, if I had to pick _one_ of them? It has to be DOOM 2. Now, to me, those games consist of the "Real DOOM games". It's where it began, and where it stopped being good, or rather I should re-phrase it into "it's where it stopped being DOOM". I know Final DOOM is a little contentious I guess, the biggest problem was its release date (way more than the levels design, or the 'lack' of new things in general). By Mid '96 when it came out, the 'DOOM Phenomenon' ran out of gas and the likes of System Shock, Alien Vs Predator, Rise of the Triad and Dark Forces were taking their space and making heads turn. And Duke Nukem 3D (which preceded Final DOOM by about 4 months) stole the show. And perhaps even more important than Duke being out by then, Final DOOM also happened to come out pretty much _the same month_ as none other than the first _Quake_, of all things. So to say that Final DOOM was 'shrugged' and overlooked is probably an understatement. Not by _me_ though, I absolutely loved it as much as I did DOOM 1 and 2. And DOOM 64 is not something I'm willing to 'debate about' in case someone reads this and feels like going on a rampage to bash it. It had fantastic level design, superb atmospheric music and ambiance, and kept the formula intact.
DOOM 3 was... how can I put it. It was [too] different. I disliked it. But I didn't dislike it "just because it wasn't like the old games", no (that was part of it only). I actually disliked DOOM 3 because it tried way too hard with its "creepy atmosphere". I mean there's a point where you gotta stop spreading it on your toast, man; or might as well just scoop up the peanut butter directly from the pot and forget the toast. I saw practically every Aliens-style jump scares coming from miles away, maybe 1 or 2 of them in the game sort of "got me", that's about it. But that's also all the game really was trying to _do_ and to _be_, to be creepy, with a dense atmosphere. It didn't offer anything new to the series besides commiting the biggest Sin of all: including a story. A _story driven_ DOOM, that plays slow as molasses, constantly tries hard to be "zcary" with flashing broken lights in dark hallways and making enemies spawn behind you or make them break through things to get you. When I played DOOM 3 I wasn't 10 years-old anymore, and I had my fill of "horror" and jump scares from Silent Hill 1 and the Resident Evil games many years prior. It didn't have the 'intented effect' on me. The only thing I liked about DOOM 3 is the environment they made for the "Hell levels" near the end... it was alright. And Super Turbo Turkey Puncher was the real show stealer. Now ok, the main menu music was good, there's that (but that music was NOT a reflection of the game at all). For me, DOOM 3 is where it changed for the worse, it just didn't work, it wasn't "DOOM" to me. It was just a 'tech demo' they slapped the name DOOM onto (and to be honest at the time I wasn't _that_ impressed by the graphics; it was good on its own, but because the game itself bored me to tears my impression of the engine or what the game was "capable of" visually was sorely dilluted; nah, by comparison during those years I was actually way more impressed by the first FarCry, instead).
Just like CP5670 above mentioned (and I'm glad someone went there, finally), the only "modern" (not anymore) full 3D FPS game that can rival the "feeling" I had when playing any of the DOOM games is Painkiller (the original or 'Black Edition' now I believe, not sure about whether or not they renamed or re-released it by now; Painkiller along with the Battle out of Hell expansion, anything that follows is not worth talking about). Now, Painkiller isn't identical sure, it does have its own identity (feel) so to speak; but by comparison there is _nothing_ since Painkiller that can replicate the OG DOOM games, as much as nothing being able to actually replicate Painkiller itself, either. What made, and still makes the OG DOOMs so good to me, which I came to realize more in the past 10 years or so (as 'modern' FPSes keep being vomited at us) is their _simplicity_. The formula was straightforward. I feel like I must come back on this, because it cannot be understated. The series wasn't just about "killing hordes of enemies" like perhaps some would think. It was _part of it_ yeah (and not every time, nor in every Difficulty levels either). It was surprisingly tactical (again, mostly dependent on chosen Difficulty levels), you _did_ have to 'survive' nonetheless, you _could_ run out of ammo for your best weapons, or run out of health kits to pick up, or pick your berserk powerup in the wrong moment when you could have used it later. It's not because "it was simple" that it was "bad" (today, I feel, it WOULD be an argument used against it, "it's so old and simple, all you did was killing enemies and opening doors").
There's no _need_ to over-saturate modern FPS games with boring stories, cut-scenes, idiotic characters (stupid writing, because said stupid story is there) nor is it necessary to try and implement "verticality" or grabbing on ledges, or punching enemies like they're Pinatas to make ammo rain like it's Christmas in an attempt to artificially make the game tougher. That's why I liked Painkiller so much since it was so simple (even if there's no color-coded doors + cards system, heck it was even _simpler_ than DOOM in that regard). The "old school" DOOM formula of "Open color-coded doors with same-color cards, find your way through, exit" followed by seeing your play stats, enemies kills, secrets found, items pickups percentage; post-match arcade stats-style is SO effective to me. It's direct-to-the-point, no shenanigans to think about (outside of "huh, damn, didn't find all secrets"). Nowadays I play Brutal DOOM (with very specific settings to avoid some more "modernized" additions like re-loading or 'sync kills', etc), and occasionally try other WADs, but this whole "game mechanic" that is inherant and almost 'sacred' by now for those games should never be touched. Any WADs I tried where it was modified or removed made me stop playing them practically on the spot. If you want to be DOOM, then be DOOM.
Now, do I "hate" every modern FPSes? No. I actually like a good bunch. What I hate is when a modern FPS game pretends it was 'inspired by DOOM', or the devs talk about "wanting to bring the feeling of DOOM" in said game, but seemingly go against every possible thing that made DOOM actually DOOM, makes me lose a fuse or two. You know... "Hey, let's make DOOM again, but let's also bring in platforming, grabbing on ledges because it's so modern to do that, let's lock the player into wave-based spawn rooms until it's cleared before they can proceed, OH OH! Guys, also, let's remove most ammo pick ups from the map and instead force the player to punch enemies like Pinatas to get ammo, interrupting the flow of the game at the same time, OH OH Guys! GUYS Oh my GAWD here's another idea, let's make the most flaccid story possible to force it down their throat with cut scenes and lots of dialogue and boring NPCs nobody gives a shit about! FUCK yeah! Now THAT is DOOM! That's what it was always about! OH and let's make sure our game is NOT for anyone for ever played those old DOOM games though, those were bad and simple, it's not like our new DOOM game is called DOOM because of those old DOOM games anyways."
With all this said, currently, I'm playing Dragon's Dogma 2.
I need to get back to System Shock 2 one day. Still have it here, never got very far with it. It started well, had that scary spooky atmosphere, but the combo of respawning enemies, finite ammo, and weapons that wore out, got very frustrating. Any kind of dawdling or exploring seemed to be punished.
Painkiller was pretty good, for a "frantic shootemup" type title, at least the first game (and the first expansion?). The later 'sequels' were nowhere near the same quality, even downright amateurish.
The visuals were actually pretty atmospheric and even beautiful (e.g. the Venice level), and the basic "shooting things" mechanic worked well.
What I mostly remember is that the "secrets" were unbelievably tricky to find/reach. And I actually liked the music (even though it wasn't the sort of thing I'd usually listen to, it worked really well in the context of the game)
- Mar 4, 2011
- 11,122
- 1,028
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A very nice post! This is why I like this forum vs. Reddit as an older crowd.
Thanks for reminding me about Doom's latest release becoming overshadowed by more 'elaborate' competitions. I do recall the proliferation of Build engine doom clones. The PC Gamer magazine shareware CDs were chock full of them. Man, I'm trying to remember the names. Anyone remember Blood?
I fell in love with Duke Nukem 3D. It had amazing levels of interaction. Fighting in LA and other relatable human locations felt very immersive. The game was full of parody, attitude and pop culture references, it felt like 3D shooting was really being fully realized from the 'serious' Doom. And of course, DN3D's chapter 2 and 3 had amazing level and map design that was also very 'serious'. Many shareware players may not know, Duke 3D got pretty dark and serious in some level designs. I think they are peak Build level designs ever.
A random thought: I don't believe in playing Build engine games with modern mouselook controls. It should be played with no verticality in look & aim. Just play the game as intended by the devs and how everyone played it on release. Build engine doesn't look too good when doing the mouselook, and sprites get all janky and out of perspective. The game play is meant for free vertical aiming while horizontally looked.
Quake came along and blew everyone away. It was a technical feat for a true 3D engine. I do remember preferring Duke 3D because its replayability. I enjoyed all of them though. Doom1, 2, 3. Quake1, 2, 3 Duke 3D, Shadow Warrior, etc.
I absolutely fell in love with Half Life 1. It was the beginning of the cinematic narrative FPS. Yes, today we can complain about how everything has to have cutscenes, scripts, etc. But that is bit like a luxury complain. Eh things always go in cycles it seems.
Doom 2016 was praised for the lack of scripts and talking (like when the doom guy breaks the screen and shuts up the explanation). But by 90s standards, that's way too much talking.
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- Oct 10, 1999
- 30,887
- 12,392
- 136
around half way through the second level is mostly platforming. Way too much platforming.
Still, it is fun and looks great.
Keep in mind I am one of those guys that loved Doom 3. I enjoyed the story. Not much story in the new games.
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