The brits are in for a rough ride

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mikeymikec

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,816
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pmv said:
"Reform" (the absurdly named hard-right party that the Tories are terrified of losing voters to)
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I'm wondering if it's always possible to guide a conservative party off-course with shall we say a false-flag further-right party acting as the magnet.

I wonder if the tories have always been the way they currently are or whether events have brought them to a more desperate point. Maybe given a long enough period in power and the writing on the wall of losing power makes them more desperate?

Maybe the tactic that the UK often used against the EU with regard to Brexit negotiations being "we need to meet halfway" then taking a step backwards, rinse and repeat, would work against such conservative parties?

It seems to me that the magnet tactic I'm describing could not always work because say in the era of the BNP or National Front, the tory position remained pretty static AFAIK.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,138
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mikeymikec said:
I'm wondering if it's always possible to guide a conservative party off-course with shall we say a false-flag further-right party acting as the magnet.

I wonder if the tories have always been the way they currently are or whether events have brought them to a more desperate point. Maybe given a long enough period in power and the writing on the wall of losing power makes them more desperate?

Maybe the tactic that the UK often used against the EU with regard to Brexit negotiations being "we need to meet halfway" then taking a step backwards, rinse and repeat, would work against such conservative parties?

It seems to me that the magnet tactic I'm describing could not always work because say in the era of the BNP or National Front, the tory position remained pretty static AFAIK.
Click to expand...

I don't know. I wish I understood what drove changes of political culture. I mean, I _really_ wish I had some special expertise or magical power in that regard, because it all constantly confuses and surprises me, but I'm sure some deep analysis must be possible.

One thing I would say about the Tory Party is that it's a coalition of many different factions representing different socio-economic interests. Most obviously there's a split between socially-conservative economically-slightly-left working-class Toryism and the globalist corporate elite Toryism (that also overlaps a lot with the Lib Dems). But there are several other factions as well (land-owners in 'the shires' being one).

Another thing is that it has changed hugely since Thatcher's time, in that the most recent crop seem to have all the inherited privileges of the old "One Nation" Tories (that Thatcher displaced), but with the ideology of the Thatcherite "strivers" (who were mostly from the 'small business' class and not nearly as aristocratic as either the old guard that preceded them, or the Bullingdon lot that followed them). The current lot seem to combine immense inherited privilege with a belief that they are self-made meritocrats, which makes them uniquely sociopathic. And then there's Truss, who was just plain bonkers.

I also can't tell how much the shift to the xenophobic right is a bottom-up phenomenon, coming from a lot of working-class (or once-working-class-now-pensioner-class) voters, or if it's a top-down one, being driven entirely by the plutocrats who own so much of the media and love stirring those guys up in order to further their own purely-economic interests.
 
ElFenix

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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tories going to call an election before they are required to next january or nah?
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,138
8,068
136
ElFenix said:
tories going to call an election before they are required to next january or nah?
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Seems as if they are going to delay it as long as possible. (The only exception being if Sunak thinks he's about to be kicked out by his own party - in that situation he might call a summer election, very much in the spirit of a suicide bomber threatening to take everyone with him)

Also, they have apparently decided that if people don't vote for them in the local elections next week, they will punish the country by moving even further to the right.

www.theguardian.com

Tory rebels plan 100-day ‘policy blitz’ if local elections are disaster for party

Worried MPs have concocted five-point plan of quick measures aimed at showing that the party cares about public’s priorities
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

It's like a form of blackmail. "Vote for us or we'll really make you suffer".

Or maybe Sunak has realised he can't win, so the plan is to kill as many people as possible before they get kicked out (300,000 excess deaths from austerity wasn't enough, apparently). The spree shooter mentality, I guess.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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The Rwanda nonsense is even crazier than it sounds. They are paying each 'failed asylum seeker' £3000 to voluntarily agree to go to Rwanda, and then spending, apparently, a further £30,000 a year for the next 5 years for each of them to support them. And this is supposed to be a deterrent for people desperate enough to cross the channel in small, barely-seaworthy, boats? (A greater deterrent than the significant risk of drowning en route)

www.channel4.com

FactCheck: government pays ex-asylum seeker £3,000 to go to Rwanda but true cost much higher

This isn't the government's flagship Rwanda policy.
www.channel4.com www.channel4.com




On the face of it, a £3,000 bill doesn’t sound like much compared to the cost of pursuing and deporting someone who is here illegally.

But unlike voluntary returns to other countries, those who go to Rwanda also come with an extra cost for the taxpayer.

Under the UK-Rwanda partnership, those on the voluntary scheme will be eligible for the same relocation package in Rwanda as those sent by force.

That includes housing, food and healthcare for up to five years. Provided by Rwanda, paid for by the UK government.

The National Audit Office (NAO) said in March that support for those on the forced removal scheme will cost £150,000 per person.
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I

itsmydamnation

Platinum Member
Feb 6, 2011
2,804
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pmv said:
The Rwanda nonsense is even crazier than it sounds. They are paying each 'failed asylum seeker' £3000 to voluntarily agree to go to Rwanda, and then spending, apparently, a further £30,000 a year for the next 5 years for each of them to support them. And this is supposed to be a deterrent for people desperate enough to cross the channel in small, barely-seaworthy, boats? (A greater deterrent than the significant risk of drowning en route)

www.channel4.com

FactCheck: government pays ex-asylum seeker £3,000 to go to Rwanda but true cost much higher

This isn't the government's flagship Rwanda policy.
www.channel4.com www.channel4.com
Click to expand...
I hate to say it but this play 100% worked for conservative government in Australia so much so no one touches it despite the UNHCR going to town because it's political suicide.
 
WelshBloke

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,619
8,331
136
pmv said:
This is downright weird. Really makes the parties appear like two rival brand names (Intel and AMD?), or sports teams trading players quite happily.

www.theguardian.com

Keir Starmer sparks Labour anger with decision to admit Natalie Elphicke

MP says many in party think rightwing Tory defector is ‘vile’, while shadow minister asks: ‘Are we welcoming Farage next week?’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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Yeah. They should have told her to pop the fuck off. She's not just a bit right of centre, she's quite a way right of the conservative right.
 
cytg111

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,335
12,947
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Nigel Farage is one of those cancers... you hope science catches up with an experimental treatment before its too late.
 
WelshBloke

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
30,619
8,331
136
KMFJD said:
So how are things?

View attachment 98698

holy shit, it's that bad?
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I'm all for voting for the least evil party. I believe that the enemy of good is perfect. I know that protest votes let terrible people into power.

This would push me over the edge and I could not vote for a labour party with Farage in.

I suspect that this is more about a spokesman refusing to be drawn on an issue than a real scenario that would happen.
 
GodisanAtheist

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
6,949
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Can someone translate what is happening in the UK Parliament and parties? I get the impression that the conservative party is having people switch sides into the more moderate/liberal party (to survive an upcoming vote or something I take it)?

Essentially the liberal party allowing conservatives to join their ranks are essentially saving the political careers of some conservatives.

Do I have that right?
 
P

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,138
8,068
136
GodisanAtheist said:
Can someone translate what is happening in the UK Parliament and parties? I get the impression that the conservative party is having people switch sides into the more moderate/liberal party (to survive an upcoming vote or something I take it)?

Essentially the liberal party allowing conservatives to join their ranks are essentially saving the political careers of some conservatives.

Do I have that right?
Click to expand...

Several Conservative MPs have defected directly to Labour, becoming Labour MPs. It's relatively rare for sitting MPs to change party (and usually they jump to the centrist Lib Dems rather than going from one side direct to the other) but a bunch of them have done just recently. Probably partly because they know the Tories are going to massively lose the next election.

In the case of the previous one, who as well as being an MP was also an NHS psychiatrist, he had a plausible explanation involving more than just wanting to hang on to his seat, in that he could see the dire mess the Tories have made of the NHS and thus could claim it was a point of principle.

But the most recent one is on the hard-right of the Tory Party, and bizarrely, seems to be defecting because she thinks the Tories aren't right-wing enough. Really makes no sense.

Akin to MTG changing to being a Democrat, on the grounds that Biden is tougher on migrants than Trump is.
 
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