Discussion Speculation: Zen 4 (EPYC 4 "Genoa", Ryzen 7000, etc.)

[Vattila]

Except for the details about the improvements in the microarchitecture, we now know pretty well what to expect with Zen 3.

The leaked presentation by AMD Senior Manager Martin Hilgeman shows that EPYC 3 "Milan" will, as promised and expected, reuse the current platform (SP3), and the system architecture and packaging looks to be the same, with the same 9-die chiplet design and the same maximum core and thread-count (no SMT-4, contrary to rumour). The biggest change revealed so far is the enlargement of the compute complex from 4 cores to 8 cores, all sharing a larger L3 cache ("32+ MB", likely to double to 64 MB, I think).

Hilgeman's slides did also show that EPYC 4 "Genoa" is in the definition phase (or was at the time of the presentation in September, at least), and will come with a new platform (SP5), with new memory support (likely DDR5).

What else do you think we will see with Zen 4? PCI-Express 5 support? Increased core-count? 4-way SMT? New packaging (interposer, 2.5D, 3D)? Integrated memory on package (HBM)?

Vote in the poll and share your thoughts!

 

[Hans Gruber]

Lmao, do tell where AMD has disclosed that the 7950x runs at 170W PPT, and that the 13900k runs at 350W. Go on...

Not taking sides here. AMD has always sipped power compared to Intel. The real question will be can Intel match or beat AMD with near or close to power/performance. If AMD 7950x is 170w and Intel is 200w for the same or better performance. People would not care much about power. If Intel is close to 300w or more, that would be seen as a performance queen at the cost of massive power consumption.

 

[Exist50]

AMD says nothing about the 13900k, are you that stupid ?

You claimed that the 7950x is 2x the efficiency of the 13900k "based on what AMD said". But in reality, the only thing AMD have said is that AM5 supports up to 170/230W TDP/PPT (something you still seem to deny), and you've somehow paid even less attention to Raptor Lake rumors.

 

[tamz_msc]

I believe there is no extreme power mode for Raptor Lake - the 350W figure is simply some leaker playing around with power limits from the motherboard settings.

 

[Markfw]

You claimed that the 7950x is 2x the efficiency of the 13900k "based on what AMD said". But in reality, the only thing AMD have said is that AM5 supports up to 170/230W TDP/PPT (something you still seem to deny), and you've somehow paid even less attention to Raptor Lake rumors.

Reading comprehension problems again ? AMD says socket AM% limit is 230, and 7950x PPT is 170. Raptor lake is all rumors, but they make sense when alder lake takes more than 300 watt in come cases, and is documented at 241, and Raptor lake has 8 more e-cores that take something, so the 350 seems possible.

But again, you have reading problems....

 

[Exist50]

AMD has always sipped power compared to Intel

Always? Certainly not. They pulled the same tricks Intel's doing now in the Piledriver era. But either way, doesn't matter. It's extremely reasonable to believe that Raphael will be more efficient than Raptor Lake. But twice as efficient? That is simply unsubstantiated.

What Mark is doing here is taking a sane, reasonable claim (i.e. AMD is/will be more efficient than Intel), applying a completely absurd spin to it (AMD will be twice as efficient as Intel), and calling anyone with a more sane position a troll.

 

[Markfw]

Always? Certainly not. They pulled the same tricks Intel's doing now in the Piledriver era. But either way, doesn't matter. It's extremely reasonable to believe that Raphael will be more efficient than Raptor Lake. But twice as efficient? That is simply unsubstantiated.

What Mark is doing here is taking a sane, reasonable claim (i.e. AMD is/will be more efficient than Intel), applying a completely absurd spin to it (AMD will be twice as efficient as Intel), and calling anyone with a more sane position a troll.

So now you bring in AMDs bad years as a way to support your claims ? Yes, before 2017 piledriver was crap. Zen is a different story.

As for the twice the power, I am saying its very possible, but you take that as fact.

Again, reading problems...... Anything to make yourself not look like an idiot.

 

[Exist50]

AMD says socket AM% limit is 230, and 7950x PPT is 170.

AMD have said nothing of the sort about the 7950x. Says something about your position that you have to make stuff up to defend it.

Raptor lake is all rumors, but they make sense when alder lake takes more than 300 watt in come cases, and is documented at 241, and Raptor lake has 8 more e-cores that take something, so the 350 seems possible.

Alder Lake is 241W. Raptor Lake is rumored to be 253W. You keep insisting on this 350W number despite both rumors and common sense disagreeing.

 

[v.strix]

Robert Hallock said the 7950x was running well under 170w in the demo with all cores running well above 5Ghz. It's literally less than a day away, wanna bet something interesting?

Sure, absolutely!

Though it would've been unfair of me as you see, i actually just looked things up and was about to post it.

There's an article right here on AnandTech.

Finally, it would seem that we should expect to see the Ryzen 7000 family hit that full TDP out of the gate. According to a comment from an AMD spokesperson on Reddit, the top TDP of the Ryzen 7000 series will indeed be 170 Watts, with PPTs reaching 230 Watts.

It wasn't even a rumor all this time!

If you follow the link to the source on reddit you can see the very Robert Hallock you mentioned speaking about it for yourself.

 

[gdansk]

Here Mark

 

[esquared]

I am going to say this once and once only.

Stop with the the insults.
This is an AMD Zen 4 thread, not an Intel thread.
If you cannot keep your comments to the topic at hand, you will be infracted.

This thread is now locked for the next few hours to get you people to calm down. If you come back here to troll AMD, I will vacation you, so think very clearly before you post.



esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[Kaluan]

Here Mark

View attachment 66724

I have trouble believing Ryzen 7000 will not have SKUs between 105W and 170W TDP, AMD has used both 125W and 140W before on mainstream sockets (but TDP and PPT ment something else back then).

BTW there's a WCCFTech (eew) 'leak' on supposed Ryzen 7000 MSRP, it looks like a 100% copy/paste of 5000 launch prices, I'm don't trust it one bit.

 

[inf64]

We got a leak from WCCftech regarding pricing (bad news). According to the leak, AMD will be asking 450USD for 16T part (very bad decision on their part, if true).

Another leak regarding the launch of CPUs and motherboards: https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-7000...otherboards-27th-september-b650-10th-october/

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

I don't understand what's so bad If the TOP Zen4 model has 230W PPT?
Ok, compared to the top model from Zen 3 It wouldn't look good from the perspective of power efficiency, but we are still talking about >=5GHz allcore clock speed while the predecessor managed only 3.8-4GHz for It's rated TDP.
If you compared models with the standard TDP: 65-105W (PPT: 88-142W) power efficiency would be better than Zen3.

Example: Zen 3 at 5050Mhz needs 20.6W just for a single core, but at 3.8GHz 5.7-6.6W is enough.

A hypothetical 16C32T Zen 3 at 5050 MHz would consume (20.6W * 16 + 20w = 350W package power).
Now, a 16C32T Zen 4 at comparable clocks would need only 230W or only ~13.1W per core [230W - 20W)/ 16 =13.125W]. That's not bad at all in my opinion.

 

[pakotlar]

You have not read anything ? 170 watt is the PPT of the 7950x. For the 13900k we have no official word, but rumors put it at 350 watt. Since you and all the other Intel supporters don't believe in facts, lets just see what happens when its all in the reviewers hands. I put my money in the fact that the 7950x will consume 100 watts lets than the 13900k. Thats full SUSTAINED power, not a quick benchmark.

Damn I am sick of trolls.

Rumors put 13900K at 250W PPT/PL2.

Are you calling me a troll? If so, I guess I should report you, to you. Control yourself.





Apparently you didn't believe my warning about sticking to the topic


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[TESKATLIPOKA]

We got a leak from WCCftech regarding pricing (bad news). According to the leak, AMD will be asking 450USD for 16T part (very bad decision on their part, if true).

Another leak regarding the launch of CPUs and motherboards: https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-7000...otherboards-27th-september-b650-10th-october/

I am not surprised.
Zen 4 won't be cheap. You will need new MB, DDR5 and a new CPU, at least this platform will be with us a few CPU generations.

Rumors put 13900K at 250W PPT/PL2.

Are you calling me a troll? If so, I guess I should report you, to you. Control yourself.

This thread was closed for a good reason by esquared, so why do you have a need to continue? Please, just stop. BTW this is not meant only to you. Just a few hours left until announcement, so let's wait patiently. Thank you.

 

[Asterox]

We got a leak from WCCftech regarding pricing (bad news). According to the leak, AMD will be asking 450USD for 16T part (very bad decision on their part, if true).

Another leak regarding the launch of CPUs and motherboards: https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-7000...otherboards-27th-september-b650-10th-october/

As expected, cheep is only for old AM4 platform.

Offtopic, a liter of edible oil has twice the price compared to a year ago.There is no further need to list the prices, or I hope no one dies(siting in old AM4 trash) waiting for the AM5 platform to get cheaper.

CPU prices are not problem, ddr5 memory and expensive AM5 motherboards are real problem.

 

[Kaluan]

We got a leak from WCCftech regarding pricing (bad news). According to the leak, AMD will be asking 450USD for 16T part (very bad decision on their part, if true).

Another leak regarding the launch of CPUs and motherboards: https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-7000...otherboards-27th-september-b650-10th-october/

CPUs on 15th but the mobos on 27th?
That and pricing basically being copy/pasted 5000 launch pricing makes this fail the common sense test IMO.

But then again, WCCFTech and failing common sense go together most of the time. This is why I didn't link their article earlier, they get more than enough traffic from the troll farms they sustain in their comment sections anyway.

 

[Karnak]

Same MSRP as the 5800X but calling it 7700X? Yeah no. Doesn't make any sense.

 

[Joe NYC]

Same MSRP as the 5800X but calling it 7700X? Yeah no. Doesn't make any sense.

Same core count.

AMD actually released 8 core 5700x recently with a lower price ($299) than the original 5800x

 

[jpiniero]

Same MSRP as the 5800X but calling it 7700X? Yeah no. Doesn't make any sense.

They could have called it 7800X but I guess they didn't like the confusion between 5800X and 5800X3D.

 

[igor_kavinski]

According to the leak, AMD will be asking 450USD for 16T part (very bad decision on their part, if true).

Plenty of AMD loyalists won't mind paying that, to support AM5. Value conscious buyers have to look at Intel or AM4. AMD knows the initial production batch will sell out quickly. They will leverage that to get the maximum profits they can.

 

[cebri1]

We got a leak from WCCftech regarding pricing (bad news). According to the leak, AMD will be asking 450USD for 16T part (very bad decision on their part, if true).

Another leak regarding the launch of CPUs and motherboards: https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-7000...otherboards-27th-september-b650-10th-october/

AMD has now performance parity with Intel (+/- 5%). That allows for pricing power, the same way MB increased in price so will the CPUs. Intel threw the prices with ADL (maybe due to MT disadvantage or to keep market share) but with RPL they are increasing them again probably to cover higher BOM and that they know AMD will do the same.

AMD will face some issue with people adopting a new platform, Intel went thru it with ADL but people eventually refresh their builds.

 

[Abwx]

You claimed that the 7950x is 2x the efficiency of the 13900k "based on what AMD said". But in reality, the only thing AMD have said is that AM5 supports up to 170/230W TDP/PPT (something you still seem to deny), and you've somehow paid even less attention to Raptor Lake rumors.

They explicitely said that it will have 25% better perf/watt at more than 35% better perf...

If the 7950X consume 191W to provide those 35% upper perf then its perf/watt would be no better than the 5950X, let alone if it use 230W.

Seems to me that those who talk of 230W comsumption are just aknowledging sheer stupidity and unability to understand the most basic maths.

Edit : If it use 170W it would have to score 39185 pts for the perf/watt claim to be accurate, so obviously the numbers are at 153W or so.

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[JujuFish]

.....
After the general warning you decided it was a good idea to post this and call out the moderator?


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director

 

[reb0rn]

We can not know what they will do, sale in desktop is bad, intel price increase might be only there to make AMD rise price at the launch so they can offer lower on, we know its most battle at the review prices and conclusion of those not what is in the market, expect both to play dirty and maybe even lower price as not a lot ppl are looking for a upgrade