Discussion RDNA4 + CDNA3 Architectures Thread

[DisEnchantment]

With the GFX940 patches in full swing since first week of March, it is looking like MI300 is not far in the distant future!
Usually AMD takes around 3Qs to get the support in LLVM and amdgpu. Lately, since RDNA2 the window they push to add support for new devices is much reduced to prevent leaks.
But looking at the flurry of code in LLVM, it is a lot of commits. Maybe because US Govt is starting to prepare the SW environment for El Capitan (Maybe to avoid slow bring up situation like Frontier for example)

See here for the GFX940 specific commits

History for llvm/lib/Target/AMDGPU - llvm/llvm-project

The LLVM Project is a collection of modular and reusable compiler and toolchain technologies. - History for llvm/lib/Target/AMDGPU - llvm/llvm-project

github.com

Or Phoronix

More AMD "GFX940" Enablement Work Landing In LLVM - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

There is a lot more if you know whom to follow in LLVM review chains (before getting merged to github), but I am not going to link AMD employees.

I am starting to think MI300 will launch around the same time like Hopper probably only a couple of months later!
Although I believe Hopper had problems not having a host CPU capable of doing PCIe 5 in the very near future therefore it might have gotten pushed back a bit until SPR and Genoa arrives later in 2022.
If PVC slips again I believe MI300 could launch before it

This is nuts, MI100/200/300 cadence is impressive.



Previous thread on CDNA2 and RDNA3 here

Question - Speculation: RDNA3 + CDNA2 Architectures Thread

Man I have been dying to make this one for a while now. First rumours for RDNA3 are here so new thread time! Just going to start off with this one for now: kopite7kimi on Twitter: "@VideoCardz Ah, I mean a simple mcm design with 10240 cores is not enough. Because the lift from RDNA2 to RDNA3...

forums.anandtech.com

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Video game consoles lifetime sales worldwide 2024 | Statista

One particular console outsold all others, a silent legend that conquered living rooms worldwide

www.statista.com

I didn't realise how poorly the PS5 has sold.
We're below XBONE.
It's between the NES and SNES, which is ridiculous considering how much bigger the market is than then.

This is pretty awful since the console is great. Sign of the economy, or sign of the future of consoles?

-Consoles are super homogenized now. Very few exclusives, very minor differences in performance level.

PC's have also exploded in popularity with the exclusivity wall coming down, PCs being easier to build than ever, hardware lasting longer than ever, services like Steam making PCGaming super simple, and Nvidia achieving meme status of popularity.

I don't have access to that Statista page but I'd be curious to see what overall gaming hardware sales look like rather than any one vendor's hardware.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I think it's lack of proper optimization as well as unfulfilled promises of 4K 60 fps and raytracing. I've used PS1 to PS5. Going from PS2 to PS3 was a huge increase in graphics quality. From PS3 to PS4, it was still great, mainly due to HDR. PS5? I've only played Gran Turismo on it and maybe one other game that I don't remember the name of but it didn't blow my mind, despite it being the most expensive console I've bought in my entire life. I have no interest in jumping on the PS5 Pro bandwagon. Maybe once it's end of life or selling used for maybe $300. So that's YEARS away.

 

[Mahboi]

-Consoles are super homogenized now. Very few exclusives, very minor differences in performance level.

That is fair, but they still retain the "simple, clean fun" factor that characterizes them. I play 95% of my stuff with KB/mouse but even I will totally admit that using a controller gives a much more "gamey" feel.
Just sitting down on your couch, pressing Start, and getting your consoles that immediately puts you to where your last game was, it's a world of difference from what PC is.

Also the PS5 is just very good. It's a solid CPU, a solid GPU, fast SSD, all in a neat package. It's not overly expensive and is very strong. I remember Iceberg Tech having tried to make his "console equivalent PC" thing, 3 years after the consoles came out, he was barely capable of scraping a bunch of stuff from aliexpress and ebay to the point that he got a really poor XBOX Series S. Nothing else would make it even close in budget.

PC's have also exploded in popularity with the exclusivity wall coming down and Nvidia achieving meme status of popularity.
I don't have access to that Statista page but I'd be curious to see what overall gaming hardware sales look like rather than any one vendor's hardware.

That's plausible.
I think there is a serious lack of demand for higher graphics past all the Nvidia claims. Tons of people still run Pascal or low end RDNA 2/Ampere.
And frankly, the economy is just that bad. People don't wanna invest in fun things.

 

[adroc_thurston]

Depends on the mix. If you want 85% of your sales to be the top model, then no. If it's 15%, much more doable.

It's not doable at any console volumes.

At the end of the day it's really just a matter of money. What isn't feasible suddenly is for the right price

D2w hybrid bonding is a low throughput technique.
It's a matter of technology choices and absolutely not money at all.

 

[SolidQ]

Going from PS2 to PS3 was a huge increase in graphics quality

I think from PS1 to PS2 was more jump

 

[MrTeal]

I wouldn't say the PS5 is selling poorly, we're just early in its life cycle. It's right on pace with the PS4, and certainly better than any of the other main consoles (handheld and Wii excluded) of the last few generations.

 

[Aapje]

I didn't realise how poorly the PS5 has sold. [...] Sign of the economy, or sign of the future of consoles?

Or a result of the mining boom, when they couldn't scale to meet demand. They lost out on a ton of sales back then because there just weren't any for sale.

 

[blckgrffn]

I think these charts are interesting:

PS5 vs PS4 Sales Comparison - March 2024

The VGChartz sales comparison series of articles are updated monthly and each one focuses on a different sales [...]

www.vgchartz.com

PS5 has been eerily on pace with the PS4 over its lifetime. I am not sure if that is exciting or not, but it puts it on pace for selling 100M+ in its lifetime. The graph isn't explicit, but I assume that included all flavors of PS4 and I am further assuming all flavors of PS5 are also treated the same.

I think it's lack of proper optimization as well as unfulfilled promises of 4K 60 fps and raytracing. I've used PS1 to PS5. Going from PS2 to PS3 was a huge increase in graphics quality. From PS3 to PS4, it was still great, mainly due to HDR. PS5? I've only played Gran Turismo on it and maybe one other game that I don't remember the name of but it didn't blow my mind, despite it being the most expensive console I've bought in my entire life. I have no interest in jumping on the PS5 Pro bandwagon. Maybe once it's end of life or selling used for maybe $300. So that's YEARS away.

Everything about this generation of consoles was so much better, IMO. Quality of life in terms of booting, level loads, and general non-gaming performance was so much better that even if they were at best incrementally better for gaming it was worth it if you valued your time, these worth worth it. Previous consoles nickeled and dimed your time and I hated it. Unprecedented levels of back compat meant I could purge that entire previous generation of hardware immediately. Games are finally moving away from PS4/One compatibility and leaving that netbook CPU constraint behind. Its great and I think the best years are still ahead.

That's subjective though

 

[GodisanAtheist]

That is fair, but they still retain the "simple, clean fun" factor that characterizes them. I play 95% of my stuff with KB/mouse but even I will totally admit that using a controller gives a much more "gamey" feel.
Just sitting down on your couch, pressing Start, and getting your consoles that immediately puts you to where your last game was, it's a world of difference from what PC is.

Also the PS5 is just very good. It's a solid CPU, a solid GPU, fast SSD, all in a neat package. It's not overly expensive and is very strong. I remember Iceberg Tech having tried to make his "console equivalent PC" thing, 3 years after the consoles came out, he was barely capable of scraping a bunch of stuff from aliexpress and ebay to the point that he got a really poor XBOX Series S. Nothing else would make it even close in budget.

That's plausible.
I think there is a serious lack of demand for higher graphics past all the Nvidia claims. Tons of people still run Pascal or low end RDNA 2/Ampere.
And frankly, the economy is just that bad. People don't wanna invest in fun things.

- Worth noting that this gen launched into an incredible period of supply side scarcity as well, which has likely clipped the TAM for consoles quite a bit.

Like most things, I'd bet consoles do the bulk/disproportionate number of their sales 1-2 years into their lifecycle and then sort of trail off as time goes on.

During the covid scarcity period a lot of casual gamers that couldn't get their hands on a console or saw the scalped prices likely walked away from this gen forever. Either stuck with a prior gen console or just pivoted to something else entirely.

 

[itsmydamnation]

The problem is games , AAA doesnt know how to make good games anymore , keep trying to live service model and fail. if i was sony i would be trying to back a heap of AA style games wait for one to get huge and then force PSN account login...........

 

[Tuna-Fish]

I didn't realise how poorly the PS5 has sold.

Consoles historically sold most of their units in the latter half of their lifecycle, after the chips were shrunk and the console cost-reduced to (typically) less than half of the launch price. Of those 160M units that PS2 moved, about a third were the original console at close to the launch price of $299, about a third were sold after the slim model was released and sold at $149, and the last third was sold after the price was cut to $99. The lower price tiers each unlocked a large segment of the market that would never have bought the console at $299.

Now, how much has the price of the PS5 been cut so far?

 

[Mahboi]

None. And likely won't since nobody seems to be seeing a price improvement with die shrinks anymore.

 

[jpiniero]

Now, how much has the price of the PS5 been cut so far?

The Digital MSRP is higher, heh.

Although given the massive amount of inflation that's happened... only a 12% increase in price is practically a price cut.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I think from PS1 to PS2 was more jump

Maybe but I remember it more as being a pixellated mess. Could be just coz I played only one game on PS2: MGS3. Maybe that one game had horrible pixellation.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Games are finally moving away from PS4/One compatibility and leaving that netbook CPU constraint behind. Its great and I think the best years are still ahead.

That's indeed a possibility. This November the PS5 will be 4 years old. If some AAA game(s) has been in development since PS5 launch and if they have been upgrading the game engine as they learned new optimization tricks along the way, we could get some really awesome games to play before the end of the year.

 

[SolidQ]

. Maybe that one game had horrible pixellation.

I was playing MGS3 no pixelation. All game was fine on CRT TV.

Your thoughts will be there N44 16GB version? or another downgrade from AMD.

 

[marees]

I was playing MGS3 no pixelation. All game was fine on CRT TV.

Your thoughts will be there N44 16GB version? or another downgrade from AMD.

Wouldn't it be better to sell 7700 xt (its already touched $350) rather than a clamshell 16gb navi 44 ?

 

[igor_kavinski]

Your thoughts will be there N44 16GB version?

Should be. They aren't afraid like Jensen of letting their customers enjoy their cards more.

Jensen prefers to see misery so he can provide solution to alleviate the misery (pay more get more!).

 

[beginner99]

This is pretty awful since the console is great. Sign of the economy, or sign of the future of consoles?

Sign of consumers making a choice of not willing to overpay for games and online services?

 

[Mahboi]

Sign of consumers making a choice of not willing to overpay for games and online services?

No, and that's a terrible take that I won't respond to in the RDNA 4 thread, same as the earlier same silly take that blames "bad devs" or "greedy corpos" without understanding a thing about the games industry.
I suspect the economy is doing much worse than people think. And that the AAA industry is in an identity crisis and economic crisis.

 

[igor_kavinski]

No, and that's a terrible take that I won't respond to in the RDNA 4 thread, same as the earlier same silly take that blames "bad devs" or "greedy corpos" without understanding a thing about the games industry.
I suspect the economy is doing much worse than people think. And that the AAA industry is in an identity crisis and economic crisis.

Feel free to educate us more about the games industry with a new thread. Don't forget to tag me!

 

[MrTeal]

Consoles historically sold most of their units in the latter half of their lifecycle, after the chips were shrunk and the console cost-reduced to (typically) less than half of the launch price. Of those 160M units that PS2 moved, about a third were the original console at close to the launch price of $299, about a third were sold after the slim model was released and sold at $149, and the last third was sold after the price was cut to $99. The lower price tiers each unlocked a large segment of the market that would never have bought the console at $299.

Now, how much has the price of the PS5 been cut so far?

Throughout its life the PS2 was also about the cheapest DVD player you could buy as well. The default was composite out so it wasn't as good as many better DVD players of the time, but if you wanted to move away from VHS in 2000 and also had kids begging for a new console it made a lot of sense.

It'd be interesting to see how much of the tail of the PS2's curve was new purchases vs people buying a replacement for an early fat whose laser died.

 

[blckgrffn]

Somewhat back on topic, it will be interesting to me at least if the PS5 Pro with the shiny new GPU can slot in at or below the power and cooling envelope that the launch PS5 had.

I am making some assumptions, but we are moving from 7nm TSMC to… 5nm TSMC? I know the PS5 made an intermediate move to N6. This along with whatever PPW improvements the architecture includes is what has me curious, as the CPU block seems mostly unchanged and the process efficiency improvements seem to be feeding a larger GPU power & thermal budget. Maybe.

 

[jpiniero]

Somewhat back on topic, it will be interesting to me at least if the PS5 Pro with the shiny new GPU can slot in at or below the power and cooling envelope that the launch PS5 had.

I am making some assumptions, but we are moving from 7nm TSMC to… 5nm TSMC? I know the PS5 made an intermediate move to N6. This along with whatever PPW improvements the architecture includes is what has me curious, as the CPU block seems mostly unchanged and the process efficiency improvements seem to be feeding a larger GPU power & thermal budget. Maybe.

I assume it's N4P. Which was needed to get it to fit into the same chasis as the Slim?

 

[blckgrffn]

I assume it's N4P. Which was needed to get it to fit into the same chasis as the Slim?

Sure, that makes sense.

Put me down as someone who doesn't care if the chassis is a little bigger. I have a launch unit that is silent except for disk grinding the first time I load a game, which is so nice. I don't miss the howling fans of yesteryear.

I also understand that smaller chassis makes so much sense from a packaging density standpoint that this would be the smart way for Sony to go.

Energy Efficiency

Networked standby and standby power consumption.

www.playstation.com

Power usage wise, it looks like we get about ~210-~220W (at the wall?) in the PS5 launch chassis. If that were kept and power usage was the same, are we giving the GPU ~150W in that situation?

Notably, it appears the PS4 Pro got a +50% power budget compared to the non-pro but given how the PS5 is more than 100% higher than the base PS4, that seems unlikely to happen again? 300W would be a lot for a small chassis.