Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes Discussion Threads

[Tigerick]

As Hot Chips 34 starting this week, Intel will unveil technical information of upcoming Meteor Lake (MTL) and Arrow Lake (ARL), new generation platform after Raptor Lake. Both MTL and ARL represent new direction which Intel will move to multiple chiplets and combine as one SoC platform.

MTL also represents new compute tile that based on Intel 4 process which is based on EUV lithography, a first from Intel. Intel expects to ship MTL mobile SoC in 2023.

ARL will come after MTL so Intel should be shipping it in 2024, that is what Intel roadmap is telling us. ARL compute tile will be manufactured by Intel 20A process, a first from Intel to use GAA transistors called RibbonFET.



Comparison of upcoming Intel's U-series CPU: Core Ultra 100U, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

Model	Code-Name	Date	TDP	Node	Tiles	Main Tile	CPU	LP E-Core	LLC	GPU	Xe-cores
Core Ultra 100U	Meteor Lake	Q4 2023	15 - 57 W	Intel 4 + N5 + N6	4	tCPU	2P + 8E	2	12 MB	Intel Graphics	4
?	Lunar Lake	Q4 2024	17 - 30 W	N3B + N6	2	CPU + GPU & IMC	4P + 4E	0	8 MB	Arc	8
?	Panther Lake	Q1 2026 ?	?	Intel 18A + N3E	3	CPU + MC	4P + 8E	4	?	Arc	12

Comparison of die size of Each Tile of Meteor Lake, Arrow Lake, Lunar Lake and Panther Lake

	Meteor Lake	Arrow Lake (20A)	Arrow Lake (N3B)	Arrow Lake Refresh (N3B)	Lunar Lake	Panther Lake
Platform	Mobile H/U Only	Desktop Only	Desktop & Mobile H&HX	Desktop Only	Mobile U Only	Mobile H
Process Node	Intel 4	Intel 20A	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	TSMC N3B	Intel 18A
Date	Q4 2023	Q1 2025 ?	Desktop-Q4-2024 H&HX-Q1-2025	Q4 2025 ?	Q4 2024	Q1 2026 ?
Full Die	6P + 8P	6P + 8E ?	8P + 16E	8P + 32E	4P + 4E	4P + 8E
LLC	24 MB	24 MB ?	36 MB ?	?	8 MB	?
tCPU	66.48
tGPU	44.45
SoC	96.77
IOE	44.45
Total	252.15

Intel Core Ultra 100 - Meteor Lake



As mentioned by Tomshardware, TSMC will manufacture the I/O, SoC, and GPU tiles. That means Intel will manufacture only the CPU and Foveros tiles. (Notably, Intel calls the I/O tile an 'I/O Expander,' hence the IOE moniker.)

 

[Hulk]

Meteorlake has been delayed so long that the desktop had to have a refresh of a refresh(because Raptorlake itself is a refresh fitting between Alder and Meteor).

All the complex words you are using to explain yourself can be summarized by the following: Intel failed to meet expectations. CPUs are basically a black box to consumers. It doesn't matter what way they use to get there. Guinea Pigs have no option of being there. Buyers do.

When plans go out of whack there are many details that the team cannot execute as well and does not perform to expectations. We don't know what they had to scale back in order to meet the delayed schedule. These are the kinds of details that maybe we'll get to hear from an engineer in an interview ten years from now. Even in Meteorlake's presentation we see their goal was to absolutely minimize the performance impact. It's not difficult to guess they have missed some of their original goals.

In theory Foveros should be better than the approach AMD uses for example. Rest are determined by execution, execution, execution. Another thing that didn't work out in theory was AMD's laptop chips and battery life prior to Zen 2. The chipset was on-die yet the Intel laptops with off-die PCH had significantly better battery life.

We shouldn't conclude Meteorlake's troubles will exactly port over to Arrowlake.

Absolutely correct.

I would add that technically ADL to RPL was a refresh. Increased core count and a demonstrable better process allowing higher clocks.

I would call RPL 14th gen a re-release. No changes to the silicon. Perhaps better bins and that's it.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I would call RPL 14th gen a re-release. No changes to the silicon. Perhaps better bins and that's it.

Possibly botched re-release. Next time, if they are gonna clock way higher than they know the silicon can handle comfortably, they should do a closed industry beta including prominent and outspoken reviewers/gamers/game developers etc. Maybe that way they can avoid future embarrassments.

 

[ondma]

Exactly. Yearly launches shouldn't surprise anyone. But after years of people repeatedly posting here that the 5 nodes in 4 years won't happen, it is nice to see that there are actually plans for it to happen.

Maybe they technically have introduced 5 nodes, but how much has the final product actually improved? Meteor Lake is meh, same or regression in performance, with power savings very platform dependent. Arrow Lake was supposed to be the big step on desktop, but now we see the highest performing tiers are not on the touted 20A, but on TSMC instead, and will lack hyperthreading. Intel is back to "next product will be great", but it never seems to materialize. Now we have to pin our hopes on Lunar Lake for mobile, and I dont know what for desktop (which is the only chip that interests me, actually.)

 

[Markfw]

Intel is back to "next product will be great", but it never seems to materialize.

This is the main reason that I am very critical of Intel lately. This is FACT.

 

[H433x0n]

This is the main reason that I am very critical of Intel lately. This is FACT.

Eh, on desktop they’ve hit on the last 2 generations. If you consider RPL-R a new generation (I don’t) then they’re 2 out of 3. Both Alder Lake and Raptor Lake were competitive when they launched.

 

[Markfw]

Eh, on desktop they’ve hit on the last 2 generations. If you consider RPL-R a new generation (I don’t) then they’re 2 out of 3. Both Alder Lake and Raptor Lake were competitive when they launched.

So now, both the last 2 generation have anywhere from 10-20% (depending on who you read) less performance, and it was questionable to start with due to power draw. I don't consider that "great".

 

[H433x0n]

So now, both the last 2 generation have anywhere from 10-20% (depending on who you read) less performance, and it was questionable to start with due to power draw. I don't consider that "great".

Alder Lake is not having these issues as far as I know. The SKU that is effected is primarily the 14900K with the 14700K and 13900K as less likely to be impacted.

It’s off topic to what I posted though. Both Alder Lake and Raptor Lake were notable jumps in performance from their prior generation.

 

[Markfw]

Alder Lake is not having these issues as far as I know. The SKU that is effected is primarily the 14900K with the 14700K and 13900K as less likely to be impacted.

It’s off topic to what I posted though. Both Alder Lake and Raptor Lake were notable jumps in performance from their prior generation.

If you say so. I disagree.

 

[H433x0n]

If you say so. I disagree.

Alder Lake: 1T +25%, nT +40%
Raptor Lake: 1T +15%, nT +30%

If those are failed generations then your expectations are much higher than most.

 

[Markfw]

Alder Lake: 1T +25%, nT +40%
Raptor Lake: 1T +15%, nT +30%

If those are failed generations then your expectations are much higher than most.

I said, but you are ignoring. FIRST the extremely high power consumption FAIL, second the problem of instability, that after fixing negates any previous results. FAIL number 2.

EDIT : Those are facts, not opinion.

 

[H433x0n]

I said, but you are ignoring. FIRST the extremely high power consumption FAIL, second the problem of instability, that after fixing negates any previous results. FAIL number 2.

EDIT : Those are facts, not opinion.

Why capitalize FAIL like that? We’re just talking about PC parts and having a difference of opinion.

 

[Markfw]

Why capitalize FAIL like that? We’re just talking about PC parts and having a difference of opinion.

Because you keep ignoring those failures

 

[H433x0n]

Because you keep ignoring those failures

I consider it an issue with respect to MT performance on the RPL-R i9 SKU. The rest of the SKUs and the entire Alder Lake generation is not impacted by it. Even the 14900K MT performance that is technically lost I view as debatable since realistically any extra performance past 253W was "fake" overclocked performance to begin with.

If you want to use this to dismiss the entire 2 generations that's your prerogative I suppose.

 

[Hulk]

I consider it an issue with respect to MT performance on the RPL-R i9 SKU. The rest of the SKUs and the entire Alder Lake generation is not impacted by it. Even the 14900K MT performance that is technically lost I view as debatable since realistically any extra performance past 253W was "fake" overclocked performance to begin with.

If you want to use this to dismiss the entire 2 generations that's your prerogative I suppose.

I'm just an isolated case but I'm happily running my 14900K at 5.5/4.3 with a 175W power limit currently. Intel sells these things uncorked but that doesn't mean you must throw 300W into them to get good performance. No, they are not as efficient as Zen 4 but when set up correctly they aren't bad.

 

[Markfw]

I'm just an isolated case but I'm happily running my 14900K at 5.5/4.3 with a 175W power limit currently. Intel sells these things uncorked but that doesn't mean you must throw 300W into them to get good performance. No, they are not as efficient as Zen 4 but when set up correctly they aren't bad.

This is what Intel should have released them as, at stock. But my 7950x's at 140 wass will destroy that 14900k@175 watt, stats and reviews prove that. But thats a fail, since its not shipped that way. And yes, the 7950x is not 140 stock, but my point is (as you said) Zen4 is more efficient.

OK, but lets get back on topic......

 

[igor_kavinski]

I have now experience with a Zen 2 240W server CPU and a Ryzen 5825U 13 inch HP Aero laptop and I can attest that based on those two experiences, AMD's thermal control is far superior than Intel's. Though I have no issue with an i3-1125G4 17-inch HP laptop which is also near silent in operation and a Dell i5-1235U I tried was fine too but there's reports of 13900H laptops throttling despite being in gaming laptops. My 12700K fan kept ramping up like crazy when I turned the system on after a year. I think Intel's thermal problems started with Rocket Lake and continue to this day. Lunar Lake may finally change that, I hope.

 

[DavidC1]

Intel is back to "next product will be great", but it never seems to materialize. Now we have to pin our hopes on Lunar Lake for mobile, and I dont know what for desktop (which is the only chip that interests me, actually.)

I seem to remember prior to Meteorlake, the mantra was that they'll have to spin their fabs and whether Intel 4 will ever see the light of day, not that whether they'll ever release the next gen?

They did advance, even if not as much or often as expected. The graphics is in the ballpark now, and they got both Intel 4 and Tile method in mass production.

Would you consider it a worse CPU than the predecessor or even equal? It's clearly better.

OK, but lets get back on topic......

Right...

 

[Wolverine2349]

One thing I can say is Arrow Lake Core ultra series better have platinum stability out of the box and no degradation issues and consistent stable IMC (unlike 13th and 14th Gen) and much lower power consumption with at least as good or slightly better if not lots performance than 13th and 14th Gen while using much less power.

Important for much lower power so much less heat dumped into the case. 253 watt is just too much from just a CPU on a small consumer level socket for an all air cooled build.

Would be nice to have a CPU with excellent core to core latency beyond 8 cores and Meteor Lake has it so Arrow Lake probably should to as mentioned before.

 

[DavidC1]

The 14th Gen series and it's degradation issue is reminiscent of the Pentium III 1.13GHz issue many years ago when Intel had no options and had to push that chip beyond sane limits.

 

[Hulk]

I look at the 6GHz for the 14900K or the 6.2GHz for the KS as what the part "can do," not what you "should do." Adding that much voltage to all of the cores to get one or two cores to that frequency is what degrades the CPU.

On the other hand you can run them like that, give them the volts and warranty return them when they die. Or simply back off a bit and they hold up.

After careful consideration of all of the facts I believe that Intel overrated these parts. If they just held them at 5.6/4.4 (max) they would operate reliably and there would be overclocking headroom left for those who want to go there.

 

[Markfw]

On the other hand you can run them like that, give them the volts and warranty return them when they die.

This is not fair to the other customers of Intel. And not a good policy at all. Maybe even illegal.

 

[DavidC1]

The 14th Gen series and it's degradation issue is reminiscent of the Pentium III 1.13GHz issue many years ago when Intel had no options and had to push that chip beyond sane limits.

The real blow would be if there's also a reminiscent to Netburst coming, where it's touted as revolutionary, only to fail for many years. Because at the time of the P3 1.13GHz, it seemed as low of the company.

I look at the 6GHz for the 14900K or the 6.2GHz for the KS as what the part "can do," not what you "should do." Adding that much voltage to all of the cores to get one or two cores to that frequency is what degrades the CPU.

This is again panicked marketing and management pushing engineers to cross boundaries they would normally not cross.

They can only make so many such grand mistakes before there's no foundation to fall back on, and they're at the point now. During their previous mishaps, they had their legendary process to fall back on.

 

[Hulk]

This is not fair to the other customers of Intel. And not a good policy at all. Maybe even illegal.

Possibly but the non "K" parts are there for people who don't want to overclock or worry about settings. The K parts are for enthusiasts. While I do believe Intel overrated the 14900K's, it's more the variation in bins that is the problem because there are samples that will run at the specs on the box at sane volts. The issues is the great percentage that won't without extreme cooling and a lot of power. It's a lottery for the K's. The people over at Overclockers understand that.

I would rather have Intel offer the K parts as they currently offer them than not have them available at all. I like having the freedom to set my part as I like. But of course that is just me and Intel is gonna do what it's gonna do.

 

[coercitiv]

Possibly but the non "K" parts are there for people who don't want to overclock or worry about settings. The K parts are for enthusiasts. While I do believe Intel overrated the 14900K's, it's more the variation in bins that is the problem because there are samples that will run at the specs on the box at sane volts. The issues is the great percentage that won't without extreme cooling and a lot of power. It's a lottery for the K's. The people over at Overclockers understand that.

That's how enthusiasts view the K parts, not how Intel and the average consumer see the K parts.

Think about it: enthusiasts never needed MCE and single-button XMP wizards that usually push uncore voltage well over what's required. The current stability issue is the product of mobo makers overcloking these CPUs for the masses, with Intel conviniently unaware. It's all done for the folks who don't want to worry about settings, because those who know how to configure a system have been disabling auto-overclocking for many years now.

 

[Hulk]

That's how enthusiasts view the K parts, not how Intel and the average consumer see the K parts.

Think about it: enthusiasts never needed MCE and single-button XMP wizards that usually push uncore voltage well over what's required. The current stability issue is the product of mobo makers overcloking these CPUs for the masses, with Intel conviniently unaware. It's all done for the folks who don't want to worry about settings, because those who know how to configure a system have been disabling auto-overclocking for many years now.

That is of course a completely valid take on this as well. While I would like to think that Intel offers the Intel "K" parts for enthusiasts I think the real rationale behind them is to show a new generation of processors in the best possible light.

The K's always come first with a new release because they will have the best benchmarks to represent the new generation. They are basically factory overclocked parts for the reviewers who will generally have high end motherboards and 360 AIO's to cool them. It's a scam! One that I partook in willingly! I am kidding here, kind of, but as always there is truth behind humor.