A reflection of the effects of Section 8 housing from a Memphis veteran cop

[classy]

I just don't understand why Asians and other immigrants are more successful overall than blacks?

Something to do with the Black thug culture and how Blacks value education?

I hear this a lot. No offense but blacks paid a price for ALL MINORITIES, not just ourselves. There are so many things available for other minorities that blacks can't take advantage of. People just don't seem to understand so many of these "breaks" we as a people group don't get. Call it whatever you want, red tape, glass ceiling, we have been relegated to being a permament under class, but folks like me who compete and prove our worth everyday hopefully can make a difference to inspire other black men and change things for the future.

As a people group we spent the first 250 years in literal chains and the next 100 years in many other chains. But people think in only 35-40 years all the slop of the first 350 will wash away. Sorry not quite that easy. We have gotten better and will continue to do so. 15 years ago 3/4 of us black men would either be dead or in jail by the age of 30, but we are getting better. More of us own homes and lol, have good credit. I am confident we will continue to get better.

But here most of the bullshit posted only focuses on the negative and I can say being proud, there is more positive stuff happening with black people today than negative.

 

[MotF Bane]

If you move 100 poor people into a good neighborhood, but only 5 grow from it, then its worth it.

Insufficient information to create such a conclusion.

 

[Zebo]

I just don't understand why Asians and other immigrants are more successful overall than blacks?

Something to do with the Black thug culture and how Blacks value education?

Model minority myth. Go to China or India there are plenty of slums full of criminality. The Asians we get are already somewhat wealthy and educated just by virtue of getting here shows that so naturally they will rise to the top once here. It's just like black Africans who come here to study from Tanzania, Nigeria, etc and do well. They were tops then and continue to be tops post immigration. With Black Americans not only are there long standing capital allocation issues, racism, self doubt and so on we have a wide cross section of the race here not just the elite like Asians or immigrant Black Africans.

 

[werepossum]

Model minority myth. Go to China or India there are plenty of slums full of criminality. The Asians we get are already somewhat wealthy and educated just by virtue of getting here shows that so naturally they will rise to the top once here. It's just like black Africans who come here to study from Tanzania, Nigeria, etc and do well. They were tops then and continue to be tops post immigration. With Black Americans not only are there long standing capital allocation issues, racism, self doubt and so on we have a wide cross section of the race here not just the elite like Asians or immigrant Black Africans.

I dunno, the Vietnamese and Koreans that I know have all come here dirt poor, usually via Christian missionaries. Some do only janitorial work, having little English and few transferable skills, but they uniformly work hard and are responsible with their money. With blacks it's more of a mixed bag, but poor and unskilled immigrants from Africa and Jamaica seem to do pretty good. Haitians tend to be heavy welfare users; makes me wonder if the entrance requirements differ.

With our American-born blacks they were kept back from much of life, progressing slowly, until the Civil Rights movement really took hold in the sixties. Unfortunately that's about when well-meaning liberals pretty much derailed them with welfare, destroying many black families. (How many teen-aged girls aren't willing to have a baby to get their own home and financial support? Uncle Sam - better than your baby daddy!) Welfare reform has done a lot to help, but also it's black people realizing that government is not necessarily the answer and that welfare guarantees you a life, but a pretty shitty one. Stories about the black thug culture tend to distract us from the fact that most black people are as successful and integrated into the country as anyone else.

And I have to support Section 8. I have a couple of friends that own or have owned Section 8 housing, and I can attest that the roaches follow the welfare people out of the projects and that many of the renters are pure trash in slow motion. But there are good people as well. Section 8 housing means that the neighborhood needs a LOT more policing, but people like the kid that got beaten up have a much better chance of avoiding gang life (and stray bullets) and making something of his life. It can be hell for the people around them, but a lot of Section 8 renters find the strength to get clean, get a trade or education, get a job, where they might not in a project where everyone is unemployed.

It also gives the cops a much better chance of breaking the gangs and imprisoning those that need to be imprisoned. In the hood nobody talks to the cops, but in a Section 8 neighborhood there are always people who don't have that mentality. Gang members stand out more and are more easily detected - and more easily avoided. And best of all, if a Section 8 renter trashes the place or annoys the neighbors too much you can kick her fat ass out and get another, as the property owners select the renters. All in all I think it is a reasonably good solution to the problem of the projects. Another solution would be projects with intense, on-site police activity, but that still has the problem that kids grow up knowing few working people so work is seen as something that others do and education seems rather pointless.

 

[Hacp]

I know alot of Hatian and African immigrants who come here and do very well. They work hard in school and I know a few who graduated with engineering and science degrees. You see very little of that with any American born Africans...

The ones that do make it deserve everyone's respect. However, you can't just start using government to give to people who don't deserve it just because they're poor. They're poor for a reason. If they don't want to be poor, they would work hard to get out of their situation.

 

[werepossum]

I know alot of Hatian and African immigrants who come here and do very well. They work hard in school and I know a few who graduated with engineering and science degrees. You see very little of that with any American born Africans...

The ones that do make it deserve everyone's respect. However, you can't just start using government to give to people who don't deserve it just because they're poor. They're poor for a reason. If they don't want to be poor, they would work hard to get out of their situation.

That's the worst side effect of welfare, people growing up with little concept of their own efforts improving their lives.

 

[SamurAchzar]

If you move 100 poor people into a good neighborhood, but only 5 grow from it, then its worth it.

So 5 grow from it, lets be generous and say 90 more are indifferent to that change, and 5 more become gangbangers.

Now what you did is you screwed the middle, non-subsidized class residents of this neighborhood. Their kids will grow with violence around, the housing value will drop and you'll see negligence all around you.

Why is it right to have someone working hard to assure his family and kids a good, safe, positive environment, only to have someone else fuck that over on HIS tax money?

Sorry, but that's insane. Give them free education, give them social workers, give them whatever they need so that they don't have excuses for the sorry state. Don't give them housing, let them earn it, let them fight for their neighborhoods.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

I hear this a lot. No offense but blacks paid a price for ALL MINORITIES, not just ourselves. There are so many things available for other minorities that blacks can't take advantage of. People just don't seem to understand so many of these "breaks" we as a people group don't get. Call it whatever you want, red tape, glass ceiling, we have been relegated to being a permament under class, but folks like me who compete and prove our worth everyday hopefully can make a difference to inspire other black men and change things for the future.

As a people group we spent the first 250 years in literal chains and the next 100 years in many other chains. But people think in only 35-40 years all the slop of the first 350 will wash away. Sorry not quite that easy. We have gotten better and will continue to do so. 15 years ago 3/4 of us black men would either be dead or in jail by the age of 30, but we are getting better. More of us own homes and lol, have good credit. I am confident we will continue to get better.

But here most of the bullshit posted only focuses on the negative and I can say being proud, there is more positive stuff happening with black people today than negative.

yeah, that affirmative action shit really helped all those asians get into ivy league schools.
oh wait, they weren't accepted because they had to accept a black guy who was less qualified.

 

[Specop 007]

I hear this a lot. No offense but blacks paid a price for ALL MINORITIES, not just ourselves. There are so many things available for other minorities that blacks can't take advantage of. People just don't seem to understand so many of these "breaks" we as a people group don't get. Call it whatever you want, red tape, glass ceiling, we have been relegated to being a permament under class, but folks like me who compete and prove our worth everyday hopefully can make a difference to inspire other black men and change things for the future.

As a people group we spent the first 250 years in literal chains and the next 100 years in many other chains. But people think in only 35-40 years all the slop of the first 350 will wash away. Sorry not quite that easy. We have gotten better and will continue to do so. 15 years ago 3/4 of us black men would either be dead or in jail by the age of 30, but we are getting better. More of us own homes and lol, have good credit. I am confident we will continue to get better.

But here most of the bullshit posted only focuses on the negative and I can say being proud, there is more positive stuff happening with black people today than negative.

Fuck man and theres so many things available for blacks that others cannot qualify for! Thats simply a hollow argument.

The fact is black people, you included it seems, WANT to use what happened 200 years ago as a crutch to cover up their own personal failures. So be it. While blacks are crying about what happened 200 years ago the rest of us are getting on with being successful.

Of course you dont have to worry. Your government provided standard of living will be along shortly.

Stay classy.

 

[Hacp]

So 5 grow from it, lets be generous and say 90 more are indifferent to that change, and 5 more become gangbangers.

Now what you did is you screwed the middle, non-subsidized class residents of this neighborhood. Their kids will grow with violence around, the housing value will drop and you'll see negligence all around you.

Why is it right to have someone working hard to assure his family and kids a good, safe, positive environment, only to have someone else fuck that over on HIS tax money?

Sorry, but that's insane. Give them free education, give them social workers, give them whatever they need so that they don't have excuses for the sorry state. Don't give them housing, let them earn it, let them fight for their neighborhoods.

They're already fighting.. the police!

 

[CycloWizard]

In other words you can't read.

No no, my literacy isn't a problem. The problem is that I pointed out that you think it's ok to take my money and give it to your grandparents since you refuse to do so yourself. Your response was that you pay enough taxes to pay for them and subsidize my sorry ass, which has absolutely nothing to do with my claim, nor any basis in reality. Maybe you could address my point instead of trying to throw around personal attacks, but I doubt it.

 

[classy]

yeah, that affirmative action shit really helped all those asians get into ivy league schools.
oh wait, they weren't accepted because they had to accept a black guy who was less qualified.

LOL

http://www.understandingprejudice.org/readroom/articles/affirm.htm


Myth 3: Affirmative action may have been necessary 30 years ago, but the playing field is fairly level today.

Despite the progress that has been made, the playing field is far from level. Women continue to earn 76 cents for every male dollar (Bowler, 1999). Black people continue to have twice the unemployment rate of White people, twice the rate of infant mortality, and just over half the proportion of people who attend four years or more of college (see Figure 1). In fact, without affirmative action the percentage of Black students at many selective schools would drop to only 2% of the student body (Bowen & Bok, 1998). This would effectively choke off Black access to top universities and severely restrict progress toward racial equality



Myth 6: If Jewish people and Asian Americans can rapidly advance economically, African Americans should be able to do the same.

This comparison ignores the unique history of discrimination against Black people in America. As historian Roger Wilkins has pointed out, Blacks have a 375-year history on this continent: 245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 30 involving anything else (Wilkins, 1995). Jews and Asians, on the other hand, are populations that immigrated to North America and included doctors, lawyers, professors, and entrepreneurs among their ranks. Moreover, European Jews are able to function as part of the White majority. To expect Blacks to show the same upward mobility as Jews and Asians is to deny the historical and social reality that Black people face.



Myth 10: Support for affirmative action means support for preferential selection procedures that favor unqualified candidates over qualified candidates.
Actually, most supporters of affirmative action oppose this type of preferential selection. Preferential selection procedures can be ordered along the following continuum:


Selection among equally qualified candidates. The mildest form of affirmative action selection occurs when a female or minority candidate is chosen from a pool of equally qualified applicants (e.g., students with identical college entrance scores). Survey research suggests that three-quarters of the public does not see this type of affirmative action as discriminatory (Roper Center for Public Opinion, 1995e).


Selection among comparable candidates. A somewhat stronger form occurs when female or minority candidates are roughly comparable to other candidates (e.g., their college entrance scores are lower, but not by a significant amount). The logic here is similar to the logic of selecting among equally qualified candidates; all that is needed is an understanding that, for example, predictions based on an SAT score of 620 are virtually indistinguishable from predictions based on an SAT score of 630.


Selection among unequal candidates. A still stronger form of affirmative action occurs when qualified female or minority candidates are chosen over candidates whose records are better by a substantial amount.


Selection among qualified and unqualified candidates. The strongest form of preferential selection occurs when unqualified female or minority members are chosen over other candidates who are qualified. Although affirmative action is sometimes mistakenly equated with this form of preferential treatment, federal regulations explicitly prohibit affirmative action programs in which unqualified or unneeded employees are hired (Bureau of National Affairs, 1979).

 

[spittledip]

The fact of the matter is you CANNOT help some people.

I agree - there is no help for you....

lol

Rather than try to integrate the poor into the middle class and well do to areas the best thing to do is leave them poverty stricken in their own shitholes so they cannot easily prey on those who are better of.

Yes, let's lump all the poor together and toss them all out to the stinking gutter. Excellent solution!

 

[theeedude]

No no, my literacy isn't a problem. The problem is that I pointed out that you think it's ok to take my money and give it to your grandparents since you refuse to do so yourself. Your response was that you pay enough taxes to pay for them and subsidize my sorry ass, which has absolutely nothing to do with my claim, nor any basis in reality. Maybe you could address my point instead of trying to throw around personal attacks, but I doubt it.

What's there to address? We vote on what services we want our government to provide. If you don't like Section 8, you can vote for reps who want to repeal it. I think it's a great program that I am willing to have portion of my taxes go to, and do pay more than enough taxes for. I am sure my money gets taken for government spending that you like that I would rather not pay for too. That is reality of life, there are always going to be taxes that you don't like and spending that you may or may not like. If you don't like it, you can vote to change it, b!tch and moan about it like a Republican, or blow your brains out, it's really your call. I am going to vote my and my family's best interest, not ideology. That you can count on.

 

[CycloWizard]

What's there to address? We vote on what services we want our government to provide. If you don't like Section 8, you can vote for reps who want to repeal it. I think it's a great program that I am willing to have portion of my taxes go to, and do pay more than enough taxes for. I am sure my money gets taken for government spending that you like that I would rather not pay for too. That is reality of life, there are always going to be taxes that you don't like and spending that you may or may not like. If you don't like it, you can vote to change it, b!tch and moan about it like a Republican, or blow your brains out, it's really your call. I am going to vote my and my family's best interest, not ideology. That you can count on.

So you admit, then, that you are voting to use the government to take my money and distribute it to your family? That's what I've been saying the entire time. If you feel so strongly that giving money to these people is the right thing to do, why can't you do it of your own volition rather than using the government to extort money from me to accomplish your whims? I want you to realize and acknowledge that this is what you're doing: using the government to take what is mine and distribute it to those who are considered to have a need based on some arbitrary criteria.

 

[Steeplerot]

So boring and predictable how every internet racist knuckleheads biggest concern is to whine about reverse racism (damn uppity!) and how disadvantaged they are for being the white male oppressed minority. Irony is not these folks strong suit. Or brains for that matter.

 

[StageLeft]

My city of Toronto is in the process of demolishing two areas that would be considered "projects" and rebuilding them as mixed income, which means dispersing some of the assisted income families there to the suburbs.

That's silly talk. I don't need a study to tell me that with poverty and the crime it brings if I'm mixing with more poor people than before I'm more likely to be victimized by them. I would do what I could to avoid living among poor people. It's what I do now, I live in the suburbs in an area poor people can't afford. But virtually everybody who can afford not to live among the poor doesn't, most just don't want to really admit why they are averse to living among the poor.

I hope classy is right that things are getting much better for Blacks. I think the numbers show overall they are, but they've been, as a race, doing so badly in the US for so long that it's no surprised some people look to race as a root cause and not just history and surroundings.

 

[Darwin333]

I don't think your post is bigoted. I do think the discussion lacks the most important think, the results of trying a more comprehensive social program as I described before. Just housing can fall short.

Just "providing" in general falls short as we are proving with our current system. We offer incentives to stay poor and punish those who actually try to better themselves.

Regardless of the original intentions, some of our social programs have helped cause serious damage to entire generations of people. Still, we don't care. Hell, most of the people who claim to care wouldn't dream of even trying to fix these problems, genreally out of fear of receiving a label that isn't justified.


As far as the section 8 problem, which is a problem (just to get that out of the way). What do you say to the property owners that lose a large portion of their lifes work or have a family member or child that is robbed, raped or murdered in the neighborhood they paid a premium (and worked their ass off to be able too) to live in?

Even worse, in the end nothing changes. When the problem gets to bad the people who can leave do. Those who can not are forced to live in an ever declining neighborhood and the decline is directly related to a government program intended to "help" people. They usually call this "white flight" but it is more accurately "middle class flight" and the more people who leave the worse it gets, a self reinforcing cycle if you will.

What do you say to the people who held out in hope that the situation would improve who are now trapped because due to the significant decrease in property value they simply can't afford to sell their house and move to a safer area?

How much are you willing to risk and lose over these programs? Do you have any children, if so how much of their well being are you will to risk for a program that doesn't really help most people?

 

[Darwin333]

lol




Yes, let's lump all the poor together and toss them all out to the stinking gutter. Excellent solution!

No its not, but bringing down the standards of other people while not helping most of those you are supposedly trying to help doesn't really sound like a brilliant plan to me either.

Again I will ask, what do you say to those you have caused serious, sometimes unrecoverable, damaged? All in the name of government programs that tend to keep people poor and rarely offer incentive to attempt to better ones self (matter of fact, most punish those who try to better themselves).

 

[Capt Caveman]

No its not, but bringing down the standards of other people while not helping most of those you are supposedly trying to help doesn't really sound like a brilliant plan to me either.

Again I will ask, what do you say to those you have caused serious, sometimes unrecoverable, damaged? All in the name of government programs that tend to keep people poor and rarely offer incentive to attempt to better ones self (matter of fact, most punish those who try to better themselves).

Easy, commit a crime, lose your subsidized housing. Like I've already mentioned, where I live, we have million dollar homes across from subsidized housing. One problem is the lumping subsidized housing in a concentrated area instead of dispersing them all over a city.

Poor planning, implementation and enforcement are the real problems.

 

[Darwin333]

Easy, commit a crime, lose your subsidized housing. Like I've already mentioned, where I live, we have million dollar homes across from subsidized housing. One problem is the lumping subsidized housing in a concentrated area instead of dispersing them all over a city.

Poor planning, implementation and enforcement are the real problems.

If it was so easy it should have been done by now. The problem isn't what could happen the problem is what does happen. How much money are you willing to lose due to section 8 housing in your neighborhood before you move?

At the end of the day you can't expect people to not look out for the best interests of themselves and their families. As it is now, the governments program has a very good possibility of fucking them over and sometimes fucking them huge. That perception might change IF they fix it but until then its foolish to expect them to want to be in that situation.

A lot of people are for section 8 but oddly they aren't for it on their street.

 

[Craig234]

If it was so easy it should have been done by now. The problem isn't what could happen the problem is what does happen. How much money are you willing to lose due to section 8 housing in your neighborhood before you move?

At the end of the day you can't expect people to not look out for the best interests of themselves and their families. As it is now, the governments program has a very good possibility of fucking them over and sometimes fucking them huge. That perception might change IF they fix it but until then its foolish to expect them to want to be in that situation.

A lot of people are for section 8 but oddly they aren't for it on their street.

What I find telling about your posts is that you take a family who is disadvantaged after a century of discrimination for their race, and you take a family who has benefitted from that sam ecentury of advantqage for their race and has a nice house, and you say the only 'victim' here is the rich family, and the first famiily deserves their problems - no wrongdoing involved. There's no history of racism with an impact - not to read your posts which has zero about it - only one who deserves the nice neighborhood.

You know, if we reversed those two families' racies in 1900 or 1800 you would see, on average, a pretty reversed situation.

You have zero understanding, shown in your posts, of the issues of justice here.

I'm open to other answers to 'how do we address the problems' that are better for everyone. But you don't answer how do we address the problems.

You answer the question 'should we not give a crap about the group with the problems following racism and leave permanent ghettos of poverty and crime in our society' with 'yes, screw them'.

The funny thing is you have the 'politically expedient answer' - the majority, the more powerful, tend to get 'their way' when it comes to how to treat a minority.

'Screw them, leave it alone' was their answer for a very long time on slavery. 'Screw them, do nothing' was ther answer for a very long time on racism and segregation. And it's your answer on anti-poverty.

 

[theeedude]

So you admit, then, that you are voting to use the government to take my money and distribute it to your family?

I admit to voting to spend the money government takes from everyone, including me and you and spend it on programs that help my family, hell yeah.
What I pay in taxes more than pays for my family's share, so I don't see it as my family taking from you.

That's what I've been saying the entire time. If you feel so strongly that giving money to these people is the right thing to do, why can't you do it of your own volition rather than using the government to extort money from me to accomplish your whims?

Because I believe that poor old ladies who don't have well off grandsons subsidizing your sorry ass should also be able to retire with some dignity in their old age, and I think government should help pay for that.

I want you to realize and acknowledge that this is what you're doing: using the government to take what is mine and distribute it to those who are considered to have a need based on some arbitrary criteria.

Income is not arbitrary criteria, and also we have not yet established that you pay more taxes to government than you consume in government services, judging by the level of intellect you demonstrate on these boards, I highly doubt it, so it's a bit premature to talk about something of yours being taken.

 

[CycloWizard]

I admit to voting to spend the money government takes from everyone, including me and you and spend it on programs that help my family, hell yeah.
What I pay in taxes more than pays for my family's share, so I don't see it as my family taking from you.

Then you're an idiot for failing to realize that you could better provide for the people you wish to help by helping them yourself rather than giving your money to the government, letting the government take its cut (overhead), then giving it back to the people you want the money to go to. You're building inefficiency into the system and think that this is a great thing. I thought you said you were an engineer. Would you build inefficiency into any system you work on as an engineer? I'm an engineer too, and I would punch someone like you in the throat if they told me the best way to design my process was to build in an operation that increases the system inefficiency.

Because I believe that poor old ladies who don't have well off grandsons subsidizing your sorry ass should also be able to retire with some dignity in their old age, and I think government should help pay for that.

Your appeal to emotion aside... Well, that's all you had there. Moving on.

Income is not arbitrary criteria, and also we have not yet established that you pay more taxes to government than you consume in government services, judging by the level of intellect you demonstrate on these boards, I highly doubt it, so it's a bit premature to talk about something of yours being taken.

See above. Your personal attacks are especially hollow in light of reality.

 

[Darwin333]

What I find telling about your posts is that you take a family who is disadvantaged after a century of discrimination for their race, and you take a family who has benefitted from that sam ecentury of advantqage for their race and has a nice house, and you say the only 'victim' here is the rich family, and the first famiily deserves their problems - no wrongdoing involved. There's no history of racism with an impact - not to read your posts which has zero about it - only one who deserves the nice neighborhood.

I have done more to really help poor people than you will ever dream to do. Pick any other post of mine out of this thread and I have explained how the system doesn't work for THEM either. In a lot of cases it actually harms them, so my point is simple. Why fuck people over simply to PRETEND to help others when you are really fucking them over too?

You know, if we reversed those two families' racies in 1900 or 1800 you would see, on average, a pretty reversed situation.

Absolutely. Especially if you add in the government programs ran the exact same way.

You have zero understanding, shown in your posts, of the issues of justice here.

I don't know you but I guarantee I know more and have done more about the situation than you will ever do, so you can kiss my ass.

I'm open to other answers to 'how do we address the problems' that are better for everyone. But you don't answer how do we address the problems.

I have addressed that several times. It isn't all that damned hard either which leads me to believe that the true intent of the programs that you are defending to keep people poor and it has done a damned good job so far.

You answer the question 'should we not give a crap about the group with the problems following racism and leave permanent ghettos of poverty and crime in our society' with 'yes, screw them'.

Again, please kiss my ass. I have written quite a few posts about how we continue to fuck over the poor (and minorities since you bring up race but at the end of the day its class not color buddy) while we convince them we are helping on them. Basically pissing on their head and getting them to believe its raining.

The funny thing is you have the 'politically expedient answer' - the majority, the more powerful, tend to get 'their way' when it comes to how to treat a minority.

You are trying to imply that I am racist and again you can kiss my ass. Quite frankly, this is one of the most ignorant replies to one of my posts I have read, you purposely cherrypick a single post that doesn't include something and jump to the conclusion that I don't like black folk? Even more ironic, I am the one advocating we stop fucking them over (along with the rest of the poor folk) while you are advocating that we continue with the status quo because it has worked oh so well. Your the bastard that is working to keep them the way they are. I am the one who is working to actually improve their, and their childrens, lives. Yet you are taking the moral highroad? Give me a break.

'Screw them, leave it alone' was their answer for a very long time on slavery. 'Screw them, do nothing' was ther answer for a very long time on racism and segregation. And it's your answer on anti-poverty.

See above and kiss my ass.