Zionism: Racist or Not?

[BDawg]

I don't know a whole lot about the 2 sides of this story, so I was hoping to find out what everyone thinks. Is Zionism racist? Why or why not?

 

[GL]

I don't think zionism is racist. Zionism is just the return of Jews to their ancient homeland and the resumption of their sovereignty over this piece of land.

It, in fact, is much closer to the processes by which the U.S.A., Canada and many other countries were all colonialized - whereby a foreign people made claim to land that was not theirs. The only kink in this thinking is that these aren't exactly foreign people. The Jews were displaced people reclaiming land that was once theirs.

It's a gray area. It's not racist, it's not colonialism, but it is a touchy situation because in order to achieve the goals of Zionism, the Palestinians would have to lose their sovereignty over - at best - part of their land.

If you include Israel's peace attempts as part of moder zionist compromises, it's not racist at all. Israel and the U.S. brokered a deal that gave Palestine pretty much everything they ever wanted with the exception of exclusive rule over Jerusalem (it was to be internationally-held I believe). The Palestinian authority didn't sign the deal.

 

[BDawg]

<< I don't think zionism is racist. Zionism is just the return of Jews to their ancient homeland and the resumption of their sovereignty over this piece of land. >>



Just to be devil's advocate, but if this land was so special, why did they leave it for so long? Seems like they just showed up one day and said, "This is our land from long ago. Palestinians, out!"

 

[GL]

It's not as easy as they just picked up and left. I'm not an expert on this, but around the years 400-700 I believe the Catholic Church at some point went from tolerance of Jews to forced baptisms of all Jews in powerful positions and their families. Additionally, the Persians invaded Jerusalem making the Christians flee, and they gave control to the Jews. They later reneged on this promise and took over control of Jerusalem from the Jews. There actually mass beheadings of Jews that wouldn't convert to Islam. It was just a generally violent and chaotic time with three major religions vying for control over different parts of the land.

Here's a link I found that shows a timeline...as I said, I'm not an expert so I can't confirm this to be a good source but it certainly seems it is.

 

[reitz]

I don't believe it's racist, and I think the declaration from the UN conference is a crock of sh!t. If Israel is racist in its actions against Palestine, then surely the Palestinians must be racist in their actions as well. :disgust: At least the US and Canada had the good sense to pull out of the conference over the declaration.

 

[BDawg]

I don't think all Isralies are racist, but I definately think Sharon is!

 

[koryo]

We're all racist (or whatever you want to call it) at some level. I think racism is the wrong term in this case because Zionism is more pro-Jewish than anti-anything, and I usually equate racism with anti-something. Having said that, unless Israel figures out what to do pretty soon they're going to be in big trouble in 10 or 20 years. Those settlements will probably go down in history as one of the stupider things ever done. Put them there and then no one will be able to get rid of them. Hey, if it's in the Bible...yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

[GL]

We're also all forgetting that Jews and Arabs are all Semitic in origin. What separates them is religion and not race. In fact, Arabs have long used this fact to argue that they cannot be anti-Semitic. So how can Zionism be racist if fellow Semites are the ones being "persecuted" by it?

 

[shifrbv]

"What separates them is religion and not race"

Maybe it's just me (and I don't know much about either side), but how come the Jewish people on TV always look like they're of caucasian origin while the Palestinians always look more "Arab" with dark skin and hair? They don't appear to be from the same race whenever they're shown on TV.

 

[sandorski]

Shifrbv: That's probably because the Jews have been gone from their homeland so long, racial mixing. Abraham, the first Jew, came from what is now Iraq.

I don't think Zionism is racist and I'm glad that the US and Canada have condemned this conference. Both countries have sent delegations though, but only junior officials. Canada's Hedy Fry has reported that a Canadians involved in a parallel conference for private organizations, such as Amnesty International and other human rights groups, have been threatened. In some meetings pro-Israeli and groups defending Israel are routinely shouted down and prevented from speaking. This conference is a complete sham.

 

[FelixDeCat]

No. The Jews owned that land long before the Arabs did. But that doesnt make the Arabs wrong for conquering it. I try not to take sides on the issue as I sympathize with both.

 

[Looney]

Just to be devil's advocate, but if this land was so special, why did they leave it for so long? Seems like they just showed up one day and said, "This is our land from long ago. Palestinians, out!"

First off, it wasn't as if they chose to pack up and leave... they were forced out (i don't pretend to know the entire historical account of this).

And second, they didn't just decide to return one day. It was the UN that 'placed' them there after the end of WW2, when all the Jews were rescued from the camps. The choice was either: Give the Jews a part of Germany (i don't know how seriously this was considered, if at all)... or return them to their homeland. The UN chose the latter. Also an interesting factoid, Einstein was offered the seat of Prime Minister of Israel, but he turned it down.

As many, i sympathize with both. It's the central holy land to both religion if i'm correct... and if that's the case, then of course there will be tension between the two. Is it racism? I don't think so... they don't believe they're superior to everybody else... and they don't believe everybody else is inferior to them.

 

[Cyberian]

<< We're also all forgetting that Jews and Arabs are all Semitic in origin. What separates them is religion and not race. In fact, Arabs have long used this fact to argue that they cannot be anti-Semitic. So how can Zionism be racist if fellow Semites are the ones being "persecuted" by it? >>


That's what I thought. I think we need to put a lid on the term "racist", and try to discuss issues instead.

 

[erub]

The 2nd Disaspora (forcing of the Jews from their homeland) took place around 70 A.D. The Second Temple was destroyed (yes, the one Jesus was in) and all the Jews were forced to go on boats and board to Rome. A few lucky scattered ones stayed behind, but not a significant amount. The rest went to Europe where they never really fit into the culture. Some Jews began to return to Israel (which was then Palestine, under British rule) during the late 1800s and early 1900s. After WWI the British promised the Jews (for their help in the war) a land of their own in the state of Israel - the Balfour Declaration. But they never got it, and many Jews who were fleeing the Nazis in Germany were turned back by the British. So after WWII was over, mass amount of Jews began to enter Israel - mostly illegally. There were skirmishes between the Arabs and the Jews in Palestine. The British decided to leave, that they had had enough of that mess. They gave it to the UN to decide. The UN carved up the tiny country of Israel into a Jewish & Arab states. The Jews were happy to get their part, even though the parts that they were given were very poor - when the British left the country, they gave all the weapons and more strategic spots over to the Arabs. On the day Independence for Israel was declared all the surrounding Arab countries attacked Israel, including the Palestinians. The Jews beat them and took over a large part of territory that the UN hadn't given to them. The Palestinians fled their homes, fearing the "Israeli tyrranny". Now they claim that they were forced out and that Israel is racist...WTF?

 

[PlatinumGold]

one interesting fact often overlooked, is that it wasn't just palestinians that were displaced by modern isreal. they also chased out the jordanians, the irony being that Jordan is one of the VERY FEW christian nations in the Mid East.

I'm very suprised that support for Isreal is so strong by the US government. given all the facts, i'll bet the majority of americans would say, leave Isreal on their own.

 

[ElFenix]

the zionist movement started back in the late 1800s early 1900s (back when pogroms were somewhat commonplace) with some jewish intellectuals pushing for a jewish state. nearly every other ethnic/religious group has their own state (the kurds are the only major one without). time passed and it became clear that the only place that most jews would get behind was palestine, the biblical jewish promisedland. WWII and the british withdrawal pushed the process forward greatly

and semitic is actually a language grouping, including hebrew and arabic (the scripts are similar). i'll bet theres quite a few jews that aren't semites, rather slavs and germans. but thats just speculation on my part.