Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

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B-Riz

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2011
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This is an alternative for users aware that Process Lasso exist, and those that are aware what a process even is;) I guess this is minority of the people playing games on PC;) That's why 7950x3d was getting so many complains for, that end users did not want this complexity.

I would hope new pc gamers are not getting 7950X3D right off the bat 🤣 and if they are, please come here and ask the gray beards if it is a good idea 🤣

Us here are way down the PC rabbit hole and know some tricks 😉
 

Hail The Brain Slug

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2005
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Mindfactory finally sold 10 9700X. 9600X still between 5 and 10
The best info I can find from Mindafactory for Zen 4 launch was 850 units sold in 5 days after release. I can't find a per-sku breakdown, unfortunately.

15-20 units in >24 hours is not looking good.

Zen 4 sales volume was bagged on so hard, "no one is buying zen 4" etc. Yet all of the reasons Zen 4 moved poorly are non-factors today. Cheap, prevalent motherboards, cheap prevalent DDR5, mature stable platform.

We can blame the split release for this to some extent, but without the breakdown from Zen 4 I am unsure if the 7600X and 7700X were the volume at launch, or if it was more skewed towards the 7950X.
 
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Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
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Idle power according to Hardwareluxx and according to Computerbase, so i guess that Computerbase s Volker Rißka is just tricking the numbers on this one since he display false numbers for a stock behaviour and instead used PBO value as being the stock value.
 

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Philste

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Oct 13, 2023
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The best info I can find from Mindafactory for Zen 4 launch was 850 units sold in 5 days after release. I can't find a per-sku breakdown, unfortunately.
I found it:
7600X:70
7700X:270
7900X:230
7950X:280
Indeed 850 for All 4. And this was already considered as very bad, ZEN4 sold like 1:5 to ZEN3 for the first 3-4 months until the price cuts came. Platform was expensive and gaming only on par with 5800X3D.
15-20 units in >24 hours is not looking good.
The worst part is that launch week sales aren't evenly spread. The majority comes during first hours because enthusiasts are waiting for the products. I can't recall it 100%, but I think ZEN4 had like 50, 200, 180, 210 at the first day and sales start at 3pm here in germany. So my guess is at Sunday evening both ZEN5 SKUs will still be below 20, 9600X maybe even below 10 depending on how many sold right now.
 

Hail The Brain Slug

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2005
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I found it:
7600X:70
7700X:270
7900X:230
7950X:280
Indeed 850 for All 4. And this was already considered as very bad, ZEN4 sold like 1:5 to ZEN3 for the first 3-4 months until the price cuts came. Platform was expensive and gaming only on par with 5800X3D.

The worst part is that launch week sales aren't evenly spread. The majority comes during first hours because enthusiasts are waiting for the products. I can't recall it 100%, but I think ZEN4 had like 50, 200, 180, 210 at the first day. So my guess is at Sunday evening both ZEN5 SKUs will still be below 20, 9600X maybe even below 10 depending on how many sold right now.
It will be interesting to see how well 9900X and 9950X move, but this is shaping up to be a terrible launch with regards to volume.

Really striking that Zen 4 sold that well despite $500 minimum motherboard, $300 minimum ram, and a brand new unstable platform sure to cause you hair loss.

Zen 5's poor sales are solely due to the pricing and product delivered.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
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Idle power can depend on power plans, EXPO/JEDEC memory settings, and on the way the sensors read by HWiNFO repeat it. The sensor reading is not guaranteed to be accurate.

That s idle power at stock since he use DDR5600 just like Hardwareluxx, indeed he display the same power than what Hardwareluxx got once overclocking the chip.
 

Hail The Brain Slug

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2005
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If you run anything than JEDEC (any form of xmp/amp etc), then SOC goes into 'OC mode' and it constantly consumes 20-25W depending on memory / pcie devices config (so this is like a third of overall power budget for 9600/9700x)
PC World pulled their launch day review because of this. They don't even know this is the reason.

They talked about how they got mysteriously 10% worse MT performane than the AMD reference data (and other reviews that came out), and after working with AMD to troubleshoot, the issue was enabling EXPO set VSOC to 1.25V when it should have been set to 1.2V. They expressed confusion at why or how this would have caused it, but confirmed that they are getting results more in line with what they should be after correcting it.

My analysis is this was causing the IOD power consumption to increase and consume more of the core power budget, hurting perf. This was especially apparent because of how power starved the cores are in the stock configuration..
 

therealmongo

Member
Jul 5, 2019
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It will be interesting to see how well 9900X and 9950X move, but this is shaping up to be a terrible launch with regards to volume.

Really striking that Zen 4 sold that well despite $500 minimum motherboard, $300 minimum ram, and a brand new unstable platform sure to cause you hair loss.

Zen 5's poor sales are solely due to the pricing and product delivered.
Or alot of people were ready to move on from DDR4 platform ....
 

H433x0n

Golden Member
Mar 15, 2023
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Idle power according to Hardwareluxx and according to Computerbase, so i guess that Computerbase s Volker Rißka is just tricking the numbers on this one since he display false numbers for a stock behaviour and instead used PBO value as being the stock value.
Why do you always jump to anti-AMD conspiracy theories? I doubt he’s maliciously “tricking” the numbers to make AMD look bad.

SoC power is directly tied to memory kit and motherboard defaults. One could be using an Asus, the other Asrock both have different default vSoC target voltages. There’s a bunch of other explanations than a conspiracy.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
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Why do you always jump to anti-AMD conspiracy theories? I doubt he’s maliciously “tricking” the numbers to make AMD look bad.

SoC power is directly tied to memory kit and motherboard defaults. One could be using an Asus, the other Asrock both have different default vSoC target voltages. There’s a bunch of other explanations than a conspiracy.

I didnt say that it was voluntary but lack of care in the tests will amount to the same conclusions, indeed there s also weird things at Hardwareluxx as well, i would think they would have spoted the discrepancies, for the time let s say that
these are non finalized bios and set ups, we ll see in the 9900X/9950X reviews.

As to anti AMD theory just look at Computerbase previous MT tests since this one has been updtated for Zen 5 release, although they corrected the weird ST tests they still moved their MT scores in favour of Intel.

Now the 253W limited 14900K match the 7950X while in their previous MT scores the 320W unlimited one was 1% behind and at 253W it was 4-5% behind, of course it couldnt be the other way around, isnt it, but guess that most people didnt even notice the shift.
 

IEC

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Jun 10, 2004
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I pointed that out earlier in the thread as well:

Looking over the variance in some of the reviews, I would surmise the lower TDP (65W) is hurting some results more than others.
Why? Because it looks like some boards are putting unnecessarily high voltage on some rails (e.g. vSOC 1.25V+) which would subtract that much more power budget from the cores.

Your uncore is a decent percentage of 65W (88W PPT) while at higher power budgets the percentage becomes less significant. Seeing 9600X hit higher clocks both ST and MT versus 9700X shows the lower power budget is really hurting Zen 5 reviews and crimping scores (esp 9700X). Or leaving a lot more OC headroom (20%+ in some cases!) depending on your perspective.

I expect to see this clarified a bit next week when we see what Zen 5 will do out of the box for the higher TDP parts, especially the 9950X.

PC World pulled their launch day review because of this. They don't even know this is the reason.

They talked about how they got mysteriously 10% worse MT performane than the AMD reference data (and other reviews that came out), and after working with AMD to troubleshoot, the issue was enabling EXPO set VSOC to 1.25V when it should have been set to 1.2V. They expressed confusion at why or how this would have caused it, but confirmed that they are getting results more in line with what they should be after correcting it.

My analysis is this was causing the IOD power consumption to increase and consume more of the core power budget, hurting perf. This was especially apparent because of how power starved the cores are in the stock configuration..

Overall, I'm inclined to blame AMD for not giving motherboard makers and/or reviewers better guidance regarding vSOC and other uncore voltages as it appears there is more than the expected variance between mobo makers. 10% MT perf difference is a lot... that's basically minus one generation in performance.

Obviously, I'm expecting less impact on 9950X results simply because an extra 10W uncore usage will have much less impact when your TDP is 170W vs 65W.
 

Thibsie

Senior member
Apr 25, 2017
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And I still dunno if my 5600X will be replaced by 5800X3D or not. Probably not. Not in a hurry to upgrade to anything lol.
Those benchmarks results really don't try me to upgrade to AM5....
 

Josh128

Senior member
Oct 14, 2022
393
552
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I found it:
7600X:70
7700X:270
7900X:230
7950X:280
Indeed 850 for All 4. And this was already considered as very bad, ZEN4 sold like 1:5 to ZEN3 for the first 3-4 months until the price cuts came. Platform was expensive and gaming only on par with 5800X3D.

The worst part is that launch week sales aren't evenly spread. The majority comes during first hours because enthusiasts are waiting for the products. I can't recall it 100%, but I think ZEN4 had like 50, 200, 180, 210 at the first day and sales start at 3pm here in germany. So my guess is at Sunday evening both ZEN5 SKUs will still be below 20, 9600X maybe even below 10 depending on how many sold right now.
Surely launch pricing is an attempt to capitalize on early adopters. I expect at least a 10% haircut on ALL SKUs prior to Arrow Lake launch / X3D launch.
 

Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
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Surely launch pricing is an attempt to capitalize on early adopters. I expect at least a 10% haircut on ALL SKUs prior to Arrow Lake launch / X3D launch.
Yes, I'm also expecting price cuts.

Seems like the conclusion has been that people are currently not prepared to may much more for additional performance, so AMD tried to optimize perf/price with Zen5. Some milking of early adopters of course, but then price drops due to Arrow Lake DT, Zen5 X3D, etc.

The question is how long to wait until most of the price drops have materialized. 1, 3, 6, ... months?

Also, possibly AMD has something more in store for later before Zen6. Not sure what, but e.g. 24/32C SKUs. Or new IOD with better iGPU, NPU, and/or higher RAM speeds. But if so, that's likely 12+ months away.

I just cannot see that this is all we'll get with Zen5, so it'll be 4-5 years between Zen4 and Zen6 until there is meaningful perf increase, and nothing else to warrant purchasing in that time frame. That is unless they are counting on Win10 becoming obsolete soon (EOL in 2025) and people being forced to upgrade to Win12 compatible CPU, so that'll drive upgrades anyway. Therefore they can save perf improvements for Zen6, when that will be needed to drive upgrades in the following cycle.
 
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inquiss

Senior member
Oct 13, 2010
200
274
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Yes, I'm also expecting price cuts.

Seems like the conclusion has been that people are currently not prepared to may much more for additional performance, so AMD tried to optimize perf/price with Zen5. Some milking of early adopters of course, but then price drops due to Arrow Lake DT, Zen5 X3D, etc.

The question is how long to wait until most of the price drops have materialized. 1, 3, 6, ... months?

Also, possibly AMD has something more in store for later before Zen6. Not sure what, but e.g. 24/32C SKUs. Or new IOD with better iGPU, NPU, and/or higher RAM speeds. But if so, that's likely 12+ months away.

I just cannot see that this is all we'll get with Zen5, so it'll be 4-5 years between Zen4 and Zen6 until there is meaningful perf increase, and nothing else to warrant purchasing in that time frame. That is unless they are counting on Win10 becoming obsolete soon (EOL in 2025) and people being forced to upgrade to Win12 compatible CPU, so that'll drive upgrades anyway. Therefore they can save perf improvements for Zen6, when that will be needed to drive upgrades in the following cycle.
They won't be launching higher count CPUs on AM5. Broken record but people keep suggesting an idea without merit
 

Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
3,990
440
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They won't be launching higher count CPUs on AM5. Broken record but people keep suggesting an idea without merit
Who knows, we'll see. It's just an option, but something will be needed anyway. 4-5 years between Zen4 and Zen6 with nothing else than what we've seen so far just won't do. That is unless we'll see substantial price cuts along the way.
 

majord

Senior member
Jul 26, 2015
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AMD messed up calling this a 9700 X , there's also seemingly some issues at these lower TDP's and clock speeds which I don't get, that are compounding the odd performance. Seeing some wildly different All core clockspeeds.


When the ES 9950X results at different PPTs were going around ,it did not seem there was this much discrepancy at what would be the equivalent of around maybe 120 or so watt with a 16 core. Though there was a trend towards that at very low powers.



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