Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

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Joe NYC

Platinum Member
Jun 26, 2021
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Best one is the beelink, looking nice and very quiet. But yeah, if they manage to cram a Strix Halo in a 15cmx15cm device, I'd instabuy if it's under 1500€ barebone... Sort of, as I understand there's gonna be soldered memory, no CAMM

Strix Halo would be fantastic part for Mini PCs, except the price will be a bit higher than current Mini PCs, but hopefully more like $1,000 for pricing with ~32 to 64 MB of memory on board.
 
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HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
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The part you all should read:

View attachment 104774

It's not a technical thing, but this snippet is an interesting peek into AMD infosec:

The full capability of these 2 extra ALUs was not revealed in the GCC patch which says that multiply is still 1/cycle. When asked about this, AMD told me this error in the GCC patch was intentional to avoid leaking the true capability of Zen5 before they were ready to reveal it.
 

misuspita

Senior member
Jul 15, 2006
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I'm in no rush, I have a 5700G completely silent now and I need something big to get me to move from it, no 30% improvements, I need much more...

And I reckon STH with 16 cores and 4070m perf is what doctor ordered...
 
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FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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The biggest game changer would be if V-Cache covered the whole CPU, and AMD switched to Wafer over Wafer packaging. This would turn V-Cache models into mainstream, high volume parts. Also, covering the whole CPU die could double the V-Cache size
That would be incredible!
 

yuri69

Senior member
Jul 16, 2013
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It would be disappointing if after 4 years, 3rd generation, if AMD still remained stalled at the same place with V-Cache, which is in one of AMD's most promising and differentiating technologies.
AMD still uses the good 'ol substrate from their K10 MCM days. Their SerDes has been more or less the same since Zen 1. The IF topology is the same since Zen 2. The IF link bandwidth stagnates since Zen 3... :/
 

poke01

Platinum Member
Mar 8, 2022
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Strix halo will be great for creators, specifically video editors but does one do encoding on a CPU?

edit: added extra context
 

yottabit

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2008
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I don’t think anyone can be saltier than Zen3 owners like me, who abstained from upgrading their 5950x because of all the rumors Zen5 would be such a monster and the most exciting dream Mike Clark ever had. I remember thinking “wow a ~40% performance upgrade with Zen4 would be great, but combined with another 32% from Zen5 would be awesome, almost doubling my current performance so I should just wait”

Part of my brain knew it couldn’t be such a big jump 2 generations in a row since Zen4 really knocked it out of the park, and Zen5 would be a similar node. But the stupid neanderthal part of my brain gave in to the rumor hype. I wish I could take a time machine back and buy a 7950x on launch

From a pure techie perspective though the new architecture is exciting, and I’m interested to see what it can do with the memory bw uncorked (Turin, STX Halo, Zen5 Threadripper if there is one) and we’ll see regarding the X3D chips but my expectations are pretty low
 
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PJVol

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May 25, 2020
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thats what HUB also tweeted
It would be nice if TPU added the 9700X configured as 105W TDP (105W cTDP or 142W PPT) to the comparison instead of "PBO maximum" to see the CPU V/F behavior over a wider range. May be some reviewers did that (haven't gone through all the reviews yet).
But even beyond that, it feels like something is wrong with the desktop Zen5's internal power/performance management.
 
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poke01

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Mar 8, 2022
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Any ideas why the 9600X consumes more power than the 7600X in gaming in HUB tests?
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Timorous

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Oct 27, 2008
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I don’t think anyone can be saltier than Zen3 owners like me, who abstained from upgrading their 5950x because of all the rumors Zen5 would be such a monster and the most exciting dream Mike Clark ever had. I remember thinking “wow a ~40% performance upgrade with Zen4 would be great, but combined with another 32% from Zen5 would be awesome, almost doubling my current performance so I should just wait”

Part of my brain knew it couldn’t be such a big jump 2 generations in a row since Zen4 really knocked it out of the park, and Zen5 would be a similar node. But the stupid neanderthal part of my brain gave in to the rumor hype. I wish I could take a time machine back and buy a 7950x on launch

From a pure techie perspective though the new architecture is exciting, and I’m interested to see what it can do with the memory bw uncorked (Turin, STX Halo, Zen5 Threadripper if there is one) and we’ll see regarding the X3D chips but my expectations are pretty low

On the bright side you managed to wait for DDR5 prices to come down and for motherboards to come down in price so the cost of entry to Zen 4 is a lot lower than it was at launch.

On a separate point, I hope v-cache does something interesting beyond just allowing the cores to clock the same as the standard 9700X. A 128MB slab of cache for a core that does seem to want bandwidth (the memory tests of high speed 2:1 Vs maxing out the 1:1 for latency will be interesting) could make it decently better than the 7800X3D.
 

Timmah!

Golden Member
Jul 24, 2010
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The biggest game changer would be if V-Cache covered the whole CPU, and AMD switched to Wafer over Wafer packaging. This would turn V-Cache models into mainstream, high volume parts. Also, covering the whole CPU die could double the V-Cache size.
The biggest change would be if V-cache covered the whole motherboard 😁
 

CakeMonster

Golden Member
Nov 22, 2012
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About the V-cache, I'm actually more interested in AMD eliminating the need for scheduling shenanigans than them updating the cache specs/size. Even with the vanilla versions of 9000 series disappointing, I'm really still not too keen on a heterogenous 2 CCX X3D part...
 

Tuna-Fish

Golden Member
Mar 4, 2011
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I'm not expecting anything fancy, already 2nd gen Vcache was a lot better than 1st gen. It's probably a few extra percent, 2-3% tops. Already the amount of cycles lost by using V cache was tiny, I think someone mentioned just 3-4 cycles. There's just not a massive headroom there IMO.

The supposed difference is in clocks. According to AMD statements, clocks on current-gen vCache chips are not limited by power or thermals, but voltage. They dare not raise the voltages on the vCache chips because of degradation (with Intel recently demonstrating why... :) ), and do not have separate voltage domain for the added cache so this means they have to limit voltage, and thus clocks, for the whole thing.

I see two possible ways this could have been improved with Zen5X3D:

1. Zen5 runs at similar clocks as Zen4, but at slightly lower voltage. This means that even with similar restrictions, they can maintain peak clocks higher on the vCache parts.

2. They implemented a separate voltage domain for the cache. This would likely mean that the latency in cycles of accessing the vCache goes up, but it would allow pushing the cores to a higher clock, possibly all the way to matching the non-X3D parts.

If either option is true it would mean that the performance difference between 9700X and 9800X3D can be greater than between the 7700X and 7800X3D.

Soo... hype train back on tracks?
 

CouncilorIrissa

Senior member
Jul 28, 2023
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Looks like techpowerup had the same results in gaming. Applications benefit from the lower TDP much more than games with Zen5. Pack your bags gamers and hop on next train to Zen5 X3D.
Was always going to be the case with games tbh. X3D has made the vanilla chips obsolete for the public that uses PCs for browsing and gaming (i.e. most of the population)

Soo... hype train back on tracks?
Please don't, this thread is aneurysm-inducing enough.
 

Det0x

Golden Member
Sep 11, 2014
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From Scatterbencher OC guide, another very weird decision of AMD that complicates non-static OC:
Think i already responded on discord about this, but with +200mhz offset your at 5950/5650mhz
You will pretty much never hit these PBO clockspeeds without LN2, so this is not a clockspeed limitation for 99.9% of the users
5950/5650mhz would net your around ~51.5k points in Cinebench R23 MT


If you really want to bench superpi at PBO 6ghz+, its very easy to use baseclock1 101mhz for a net fmax of 6010mhz as you know
But then again, if your hunting for highscores it better to set static OC 6ghz to a single affinity locked core, from inside windows, when your ready to bench
 

marees

Senior member
Apr 28, 2024
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The interesting thing is that there are multiple reviews now that calls the 9600X the best budget gaming cpu. Its weird how some reviewers are calling the release a flop. According to some, AMD will have the best value gaming cpu and once the X3D parts arrive, the best gaming cpu bar none.
PC World delayed their review because of unexpected multi-core performance when compared to single core gains

 

JustViewing

Senior member
Aug 17, 2022
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So this is another typical AMD launch. Couple of users over hype the product. Others fall for this hype. When the product is actually released, everyone feels disappointed. For me the performance meets the expectation from the architectural perspective.
It is well know that it is very difficult to increase integer IPC. The number of general purpose registers is a bottle neck. More read/write ports will help, but it may also increase power usage. As I said before, we need to wait for APX instruction set implementation before we see huge IPC increase.
Having said that, there is still lots of potential still left in AVX. With AVX512 they can probably go over 16 execution units.

My real disappointment is there is no 24/32 core AM5 Zen5 CPU.
 
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tsamolotoff

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May 19, 2019
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You will pretty much never hit these PBO clockspeeds without LN2, so this is not a clockspeed limitation for 99.9% of the user
In single threaded situations? how so? In any case, you know that this affects whole curve altogether so it just needlessly complicates tuning - why even implement such a limit if in 'normal' circumstances it is never reached by CCD1 (unless you bclk oc and the cpu crashes in idle). As I tried to explain in Discord, if your ccd1 is bad, this differential in fmax creates issues (for me), but we'll see I guess. Not that'd use boost system if fixed OC was available with x3d, something like 5.5 ghz at 1.2v ish would suite me just fine.