Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

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Rheingold

Member
Aug 17, 2022
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It'd matter if it provided tangible benefit in performance, but most people will just open their faviourite tech-youtuber (GN or HU),
Those two are not the primary sources in Germany. The swing towards higher efficiency and lower temperatures is reflected much more positive over here where electricity costs are much more relevant for buyers. The fix for all those "too hot" posts was usually "use eco mode".
 

Jan Olšan

Senior member
Jan 12, 2017
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Hmm, regrettable (and unexpected) that the gaming performance isn't improved much but I have to say I don't quite care about that. I wonder if there will be some AGESA/etc improvements in gaming. There is certainly better chance of gaming improving over time than application software improving. No idea, did post-launch updates to firmware/AGESA improve performance on Zen 4 (non-X3D)?

That said, the non-gaming performance is solid. I went through the HWCooling tests, lots of (not avx512-related) 10%+ IPC gains in single thread tasks. And it's stuff like Geekbench 5, the browser benchmarks.

IMHO this core will withstand the test of time, despite the hysteria and dud/fail clickbaiting in some places :)
 

The Hardcard

Senior member
Oct 19, 2021
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I think most would be ok with this if they add a lower end X3D, like a 9600X3D or 9700X3D, ala 5000 series.
With the experience they now have with V-Cache, I wonder if it might have been beneficial to launch X3D from the beginning. Combine some increased engineering resources with a 2 to 3 month delay in launch. Especially if they are able to make another cut in the max frequency gap.

I’m also very curious to see the the suite of benchmark results with 16 cores on a 256-bit bus (Halo.)
 

inf64

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2011
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At first I was a bit disappointed but after checking more reviews (especially the ones with PBO and EXPO tuning) I think the Zen 5 is a nice gen on gen upgrade. It is not revolutionary (on desktop at least), but it brings ECO mode Ryzens to the regular SKU list. I think that 9950X will top all of the charts and will be a tough matchup for 285K ARL part.

X3D models, if they are allowed to boost better than 7800X3D, will likely be top dogs in gaming for years to come.
 

Hans Gruber

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2006
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First Im not cherry picking anything, thats a (bad) assumption.
I literally said - "Thats the only thing I have had time to look at" and you still feel the need to insult.
Second 5% more performance for much less power consumption still supports my original statement of more performance for less power.
That power consumption gain is largely due to switching from N5 to N4P. What design or engineering performance improvements exist beyond the benefits of TSMC silicon?
 

Hans Gruber

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Dec 23, 2006
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With the experience they now have with V-Cache, I wonder if it might have been beneficial to launch X3D from the beginning. Combine some increased engineering resources with a 2 to 3 month delay in launch. Especially if they are able to make another cut in the max frequency gap.

I’m also very curious to see the the suite of benchmark results with 16 cores on a 256-bit bus (Halo.)
Based on the reviews, AMD may have to ditch the X3D v-cache and just make it the standard on all Zen 5 chips. They need to be able to push 3D v-cache to the maximum clock limits, identical to standard Zen 5 max clocks.
 

CouncilorIrissa

Senior member
Jul 28, 2023
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That power consumption gain is largely due to switching from N5 to N4P. What design or engineering performance improvements exist beyond the benefits of TSMC silicon?
lol
You do realise that Apple chips exist? They use the same TSMC nodes as everyone else, but M2 on N5 is massively more efficient in 1T compared to Zen 4 on N5, as well as their ARM competition.
 
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Hans Gruber

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Dec 23, 2006
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lol
You do realise that Apple chips exist? They use the same TSMC nodes as everyone else, but M2 on N5 is massively more efficient in 1T compared to Zen 4 on N5, as well as their ARM competition.
You do realize Apple is a different architecture entirely? Nobody compares X86 architecture to an entirely different platform. I am comparing Zen 4 to Zen 5 efficiency. When Zen was originally released in 2017, they had it mapped out all the way to Zen 4. Everything beyond Zen 4 is uncharted territory for AMD.

TSMC's own numbers for performance uplift and efficiency (power consumption) are inline with the increased efficiency of N4P.
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
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lol
You do realise that Apple chips exist? They use the same TSMC nodes as everyone else, but M2 on N5 is massively more efficient in 1T compared to Zen 4 on N5, as well as their ARM competition.

Better to look at actual numbers than doing such statements that are contradicted by measurements, 8700 pts in CB R23 at something like 20W, Z1 Extreme does 10700 pts at 20W and 8600 pts at 15W, so the latter is much more efficient, you just got the numbers backward.
To score the same as the Z1EX@20W the M2 would require roughly 32W.


 
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Markfw

Moderator Emeritus, Elite Member
May 16, 2002
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At first I was a bit disappointed but after checking more reviews (especially the ones with PBO and EXPO tuning) I think the Zen 5 is a nice gen on gen upgrade. It is not revolutionary (on desktop at least), but it brings ECO mode Ryzens to the regular SKU list. I think that 9950X will top all of the charts and will be a tough matchup for 285K ARL part.

X3D models, if they are allowed to boost better than 7800X3D, will likely be top dogs in gaming for years to come.
If you want 1) efficiency and
2) avx-512 strong performance

You may buy the 9950x just for that. There are quite a few in the TEAM discord that want to replace all their 7950x's with 9950x's, just for those 2 reasons alone.
30-40% avx-512 improvement at -30-40% power reduction.
 

CouncilorIrissa

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Jul 28, 2023
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You do realize Apple is a different architecture entirely? Nobody compares X86 architecture to an entirely different platform. I am comparing Zen 4 to Zen 5 efficiency. When Zen was originally released in 2017, they had it mapped out all the way to Zen 4. Everything beyond Zen 4 is uncharted territory for AMD.

TSMC's own numbers for performance uplift and efficiency (power consumption) are inline with the increased efficiency of N4P.
If there is no efficiency improvement coming from the architecture, then how come HX 370 pulls less power 3-4W less power in 1T while being within ~100MHz compared to Phoenix, despite N4P having no power savings compared to N4? Fairy dust?
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1723069154718.png
 

FlameTail

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Dec 15, 2021
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exquisitechar

Senior member
Apr 18, 2017
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Sorry, but I find it extremely hard to believe you have a source with that level of information, who simultaneously didn't have enough information to steer you away from your 40% IPC insanity.

If it's anything like the last time, you are maybe at best privy to some kernel of truth that you are inappropriately extrapolating from in order to reach an unlikely conclusion.
He's not the only one that's said that's what's on AMD's roadmap...I'm afraid it might be true.

Very much hoping it's not and I have to agree with the others that said that AMD may as well give up if they take that long.
 

poke01

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Mar 8, 2022
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Better to look at actual numbers than doing such statements that are contradicted by measurements, 8700 pts in CB R23 at something like 20W, Z1 Extreme does 10700 pts at 20W and 8600 pts at 15W, so the latter is much more efficient, you just got the numbers backward.
To score the same as the Z1EX@20W the M2 would require roughly 32W.
Council was talking about 1T. The Z1 Extreme is a 8C/16T part and your comparing MT to a 4P+4E/8T M2. Of course Z1 is going to score higher in MT, not to mention the disadvantage of using R23 for ARM based products.

—-

Anyway better in the meantime AMD, starts work on custom ARM silicon. Get a seperate team and kill Qualcomm push before Nvidia makes a move.
 

Hans Gruber

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Dec 23, 2006
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If there is no efficiency improvement coming from the architecture, then how come HX 370 pulls less power 3-4W less power in 1T while being within ~100MHz compared to Phoenix, despite N4P having no power savings compared to N4? Fairy dust?
View attachment 104724

View attachment 104725
View attachment 104726
From your chart. N4P provides 22% better power efficiency over N5 and 11% performance uplift over N5. You are citing N4 vs N4P in your response which is not accurate. Zen 4 was based on N5 silicon. How AMD utilizes that performance boost is up to them. If they add a AGESA bios update with 65w/95w/105w/120w, we would see significant differences/improvements in performance for the 9700x. The 7700x was originally 105w TDP vs 65w for the 9700x.
 

Hans Gruber

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2006
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Council was talking about 1T. The Z1 Extreme is a 8C/16T part and your comparing MT to a 4P+4E/8T M2. Of course Z1 is going to score higher in MT, not to mention the disadvantage of using R23 for ARM based products.

—-

Anyway better in the meantime AMD, starts work on custom ARM silicon. Get a seperate team and kill Qualcomm push before Nvidia makes a move.
It's better to say single thread rather than 1T. It will confuse people with 1t memory timings on DDR5 memory.
 

Hitman928

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2012
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From your chart. N4P provides 22% better power efficiency over N5 and 11% performance uplift over N5. You are citing N4 vs N4P in your response which is not accurate. Zen 4 was based on N5 silicon. How AMD utilizes that performance boost is up to them. If they add a AGESA bios update with 65w/95w/105w/120w, we would see significant differences/improvements in performance for the 9700x. The 7700x was originally 105w TDP vs 65w for the 9700x.

Phoenix was on N4, not N5.

amd_phx_die.jpg