Discussion Zen 5 Discussion (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 8000)

[DisEnchantment]

Well, since many folks already got their hands (or at least going to get) on Zen 4 CPUs , time to discuss about Zen 5 (Zen 4 already old news )

We already got roadmaps and key technologies like AIE








Some things we already knew

• Dr. Lisa Su and Forrest Norrod already mentioned at FAD 2022 on May 9th, during Q&A that Zen 5 will come in N3 and N4/5 variants so it will be on multiple nodes.
• Mark Papermaster highlighted that it will be a grounds up architecture, Also mentioned last para here
• Mike Clark mentioned that they started to work on Zen 5 already in 2018. This means Zen 5 by the time it launches would have been under conception and planning and development for much longer than the original Zen program

For a CPU architecture launching in early 2024 in the form of Strix Point for OEM notebook refresh, tape out should be happening in the next few months already.
Share your thoughts

"I just wanted to close my eyes, go to sleep, and then wake up and buy this thing. I want to be in the future, this thing is awesome and it's going be so great - I can't wait for it." - Mike Clark

 

[eek2121]

The only thing that I can think of is that the Workstation market isn't very large - compared to server and desktop/laptop. So Workstation CPUs are a lower priority - plus they still take a fair bit of time to validate. It's not like, oh sorry we just corrupted your 700GB AutoCAD file, everything is fine.

That is because Apple is snagging all the sales.

 

[Ajay]

I am surprised AMD didn’t go quad channel with Ryzen.

As already mentioned - that would push up the price of desktop boards, and they are already expensive.

 

[Ajay]

That is because Apple is snagging all the sales.

Really? For Pro software aside from Video/Photo and Sound editing?

 

[eek2121]

As already mentioned - that would push up the price of desktop boards, and they are already expensive.

This is a false assumption for a couple reasons:

My Threadripper boards were $799 and $399. Guess what an enthusiast board costs now? Threadripper quad channel boards in general retailed for $300-$1,000. Enthusiast AM5 boards often sell for $450-$700

Also, keep in mind that quad channel is optional. The chip can run in dual or single channel mode just as easily. So can the board. This means only premium boards could be quad channel, while budget friendly boards could be dual channel.

As it is, we now have a bunch of boards with 4 DIMM slots, but 2 of them may or may not work, and if they do, likely at lower than advertised speeds.

Really? For Pro software aside from Video/Photo and Sound editing?

Yes, Apple has been dominating or overtaking nearly every pro workload out there except the Windows only ones. At least in all the niches I know of.

 

[Ajay]

As it is, we now have a bunch of boards with 4 DIMM slots, but 2 of them may or may not work, and if they do, likely at lower than advertised speeds.

Well, that's an option 4x single channel. Surprised that Quad channel isn't more expensive - are DRAM clocks limited compared to enthusiast boards?

 

[eek2121]

Well, that's an option 4x single channel. Surprised that Quad channel isn't more expensive - are DRAM clocks limited compared to enthusiast boards?

No idea, Zen 1 was pretty limited in terms of speeds. I bought a DDR4 3200 kit and it worked out of the box with XMP. In theory, because it is still 1DPC, it should still support high speeds.

 

[Joe NYC]

I'm not sure only "marketing" would block it (not like AMD excelled at that part anyway). We already have seen AMD target a lot of different markets with the fewest actually different chips. So from that point of view adding yet another option should be no issue. It however does become an issue if it is deemed to weaken the overall branding, to bind significant software investment (in the case of mixing Zen4 and Zen4c CCDs), to use up stock volume in the channels for lower margin units, and whatever other more or less valid excuses different management levels could come up.

The easiest way to market it would be as a micro server chip, with 2x Zen 5c based CCDs. Also, possibly with just 1 CCD.

It would not interfere or contradict anything. The CPU would work very well in this environment.

Of course, marketing heads would probably explode in what to call it... Easiest thing would be just to give it a different suffix, just as 8950 MS (or something similar), but the marketing would probably have to burn a couple of thousand man hours to come up with this...

 

[Fjodor2001]

Zen3 with 16C had no problem with only DDR4 3200-3600Mhz.
Now, we can buy 8000MHz memory, that's 122-150% more.
If I calculated:
100% for Zen3.
129% for Zen4 (+29%)
174% for Zen5 (+35%)
Now, If I added 50% more cores, I would end up with 261%.
I would need 8350-9400MHz memory.

However later CPU generations often have better IMC and cache handling which reduces requirements on memory speed somewhat, which should be taken into consideration.

Also, not all workloads are memory speed bound anyway.

 

[moinmoin]

The easiest way to market it would be as a micro server chip, with 2x Zen 5c based CCDs. Also, possibly with just 1 CCD.

It would not interfere or contradict anything. The CPU would work very well in this environment.

Of course, marketing heats would probably explode in what to call it... Easiest thing would be just to give it a different suffix, just as 8950 MS (or something like similar), but the marketing would probably have to burn a couple of thousand man hours to come up with this...

Small servers that would officially build upon the AM5 platform would be nice indeed. A too low margin niche for AMD though I guess.

 

[Markfw]

Small servers that would officially build upon the AM5 platform would be nice indeed. A too low margin niche for AMD though I guess.

https://www.newegg.com/p/296-0002-004V8

Right there. And there are others.

Edit: at least this one also

https://www.newegg.com/gigabyte-mc13-le0-amd-ryzen-7000-series-processors/p/N82E16813145447

 

[Joe NYC]

Small servers that would officially build upon the AM5 platform would be nice indeed. A too low margin niche for AMD though I guess.

There is still some time left for AMD to get on-board the small servers using AM5.

Zen 4 is already vastly superior to Xeon-Ds and Zen 5c would be even further ahead of any potential competition from Intel.

Well, Siena platform will also be using these, in a more expensive platform with more memory channels, but AM5 could go down to price levels where Sienna can't get to.

 

[StefanR5R]

There are two kinds of people who "need" more cores:
a) Those who have an actual many-core workload to run. These folks simply buy or rent many-core computers or computer clusters.
b) Those who don't actually care about workloads which benefit from many cores. These folks are telling us how certain computer platforms need a certain increase of core count. How about they tell us about it in a dedicated thread? It's not particular to Zen 5.

 

[moinmoin]

https://www.newegg.com/p/296-0002-004V8

Right there. And there are others.

Edit: at least this one also

https://www.newegg.com/gigabyte-mc13-le0-amd-ryzen-7000-series-processors/p/N82E16813145447

I'm well aware of these offers by board manufacturers. ASRock Rack as well. Point is that AMD itself doesn't target small servers at all.

So these are essentially unofficial solutions available only because some board partners see the niche as worth addressing, not the CPU manufacturer targeting that itself. And the latter would be needed to even see the possibility of an AM5 chip using a Zec4c or 5c CCD as discussed appearing. Though I guess embedded some years down the road is also a possibility.

 

[Fjodor2001]

There are two kinds of people who "need" more cores ST performance:
a) Those who have an actual many-core ST workload to run. These folks simply buy or rent many-core ST computers or computer clusters.
b) Those who don't actually care about workloads which benefit from many cores ST performance. These folks are telling us how certain computer platforms need a certain increase of core count ST performance. How about they tell us about it in a dedicated thread? It's not particular to Zen 5.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Markfw]

Fixed it for you.

Thats BS. The entire DC community needs more cores. Its only gamers and a few niche users (software that can only use one core or a very few cores) that need ST performance above all.

 

[DisEnchantment]

Its only gamers and a few niche users (software that can only use one core or a very few cores) that need ST performance above all.

I am beyond certain many if not most engineering loads need a combination of both. Engineering workloads are vast and diverse.
We have a large bunch of AMD EPYC 9374F clusters and we choose this specific SKU due to the high boost it has among the 4th gen family. Sometimes I wish it has more cores but the number ST passes in our loads are high that currently we are looking to migrate to 2P 9374F clusters instead of 1P 64C clusters.

It is not like every typical engineer use their WS for running only docker containers. Can't say that's the case for every other industry though. But I bet a lot more than just Engineering who would not want to trade one for the other.

 

[jpiniero]

Its only gamers and a few niche users (software that can only use one core or a very few cores) that need ST performance above all.

If anything it's the complete opposite.

And gaming is what drives DIY.

 

[Fjodor2001]

If anything it's the complete opposite.

And gaming is what drives DIY.

The same CPUs are used in mainstream, gaming, office, and workstation PCs. All on AM5.

Also, just because there would be 24C/32C CPUs does not mean everyone has to buy them. E.g. gamers and office users could buy the peasant 16C CPUs, and then at a lower cost too. So you should be happy.

Additionally, long term games will adapt to make use of more cores if they are available on regular desktop PCs. Just as they adapted when moving past 4C CPUs. If we'd have listened to the gaming crowd back in the "Intel 4C forever and nobody needs 8/16C AMD Zen CPUs" days, we'd still be stuck with with 4C.

 

[Abwx]

The same CPUs are used in mainstream, gaming, office, and workstation PCs. All on AM5.

Dont think you ll find some 7950X/7900X or even 7700/7700X in office PCs, most likely some APU with 4C/8T at best.

 

[Fjodor2001]

Dont think you ll find some 7950X/7900X or even 7700/7700X in office PCs, most likely some APU with 4C/8T at best.

Yes. And a mix of those actually.

 

[Markfw]

If anything it's the complete opposite.

And gaming is what drives DIY.

and what does gaming have to do with desktop ? Yes, its a PART of desktop, but there are others. Some want office, some want mini workstations, some participate in DC or things that require a lot of cores. Why do you think DIY owns gaming ? Consoles ? handhelds ? Gaming is all over, but they don't own DIY.

 

[jpiniero]

Also, just because there would be 24C/32C CPUs does not mean everyone has to buy them.

But there wouldn't really be a market for them for DIY (if you are talking about AMD's dense core products) since they would be slower in games due to the lower all core boost.

Clearly AMD has decided that the market 24+ is mainly OEM workstations who also want the memory channels and lanes... and are at least capable of paying Epyc like prices for it.

 

[Thunder 57]

If anything it's the complete opposite.

And gaming is what drives DIY.

I guess it's because of people who have that opinion that the word "gaming" is attached to everything. "Gaming" motherboard, "Gaming" memory, "Gaming" keyboard. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a gaming PSU. It's annoying.

 

[eek2121]

If anything it's the complete opposite.

This is not true. Higher core counts matter for literally everything except gaming. Find me a game that runs better on the upcoming 96 core Threadripper than on a 7800X3D and we will talk. Single core performance benefits ALL tasks. Multicore performance benefits productivity primarily.

 

[biostud]

Higher core counts matter for literally everything except gaming.

Lots of single threaded or lightly threaded apps, which does not benefit from extra cores.