Zen 2 APUs/"Renoir" discussion thread

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Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
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And it may only be overtaken in the last year.

Not quite what I'd call a 'useless iGPU'.
I never said vega is useless, but keep selling the same product over a long period is never good, no matter if is AMD, Intel, Nvidia, Cryrix or IDT.

Just because AMD isn't putting Navi into their APUs, doesn't mean they aren't updating them. The CU count isn't going up though, and let's face it, iGPU performance won't really move until something is done about the memory situation.
I agree that DDR5 is needed in order to have a significant progress. BUT you are going to see, when Renoir launches in desktop, that Vega 6-7 cant take much advantage of the new high speed RAM that Renoir supports.
I said several times that is not only about rams, that a 3200MHZ RAM, Vega 8 on the 3200G needs 1.6Ghz to match 1.4Ghz Vega 11, but if the Vega 11 is at 1.6Ghz, there is NO WAY for Vega 8 (on the 3200G) to catch it because 1700mhz is the max you can do on Picasso and is not stable enoght for more than testing. And that is at 3200mhz only.

Vega 11 stock with 3200ram was head to head with the RX550 that has 128bit GDDR5 ram to the point it cant be considered an worthwhile upgrade. Imagine what Vega 11 could have done with DDR4-4266+ rams at 1:1 fabric that Renoir supports.

Renoir gives the ram speed support that Picasso needed, but it reduces the IGP size a lot, specially if we are talking about Vega 6 vs Vega 11. And at the end of the day we get no improvement in that area.
 
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grant2

Golden Member
May 23, 2001
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Were you saying the same thing when Intel gouged the hell out of people for years for babysteps in performance? Genuinely curious.

AMD is making money hand-over-fist now with average margins of 46% across their product line. I think it's perfectly acceptable for consumers to not want that margin to increase by way of higher prices.
Yes I said the same thing, and I also think claiming people were "gouged" is needless hyperbole. It's a perfect example of my point: Intel for decades offered higher performance with falling prices, unlike 99% of the rest of the things we buy, and yet still you're aggravated by it.

Everything else in the world goes up in prices (see: someone saying $700 years ago is equal to $900 today after accounting for inflation)

I just don't get why CPU enthusiasts somehow feel entitled to some arbitrary level of constantly dropping prices & rising performance, even though they're not the ones actually performing the innovation.
 

grant2

Golden Member
May 23, 2001
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Currently AMD has a net margin of %9.72. That is quite low really. Intel is at %30.02 net margin. As further reference Apple and Google are both %21 net margin.
Most restaurants have a gross margin of approximately 200%.
Most clothing has a gross margin of 100% - 1000%
Most designer goods (e.g. Gucci handbags) probably have a gross margin of 10,000% or higher

Yet there's nowhere near the same level of angst against Chipotle, Calvin Klein, or Luis Vuitton, despite the fact that their prices rise every year without the same consistent performance increases we see in CPUs.

People are getting stressed out needlessly IMO.
 

FriedMoose

Member
Dec 14, 2019
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1042 Int and 1317 floating point is considerably lower than most 3600s with DDR4 3200.




 

LightningZ71

Golden Member
Mar 10, 2017
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Flipping back and forth between the 4650 scores and the 3600 scores, it's easy to see which sub-tests are cache size sensitive. With both systems configured for 3200 DDR4, the 3600 is, in most of the subs, a bit faster than the 4650. This is a reasonable expectation and outcome given the characteristics of the two chips.

The question here is, how big of a gap is there between the two chips when the ram speed is 3800 on a R5-3600 that can manage a 1900 IF? And, then, How does that change as the 4650 continues to increase its DDR speed up to 4233-4300?

Finally, how does the scaling go on the 4700/4750 vs. the 3700x? In the multi thread scenario, where the memory footprint is overflowing the L3, it could get interesting...
 

amd6502

Senior member
Apr 21, 2017
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I would expect Renoir Zen3 successor to be big die and have 11+ CU. This will be good timing with when high frequency (today's "exotic" DDR4) becomes mainstream in pricing and availability.

Its sibling small die 4c Zen3 APU would be native quadcore with probably 6CU. Those two dies should cover a lot of the market, from the broad mainstream to high end. (It also will cover a wide TDP, from 10W ~ 100W; maybe even 6w for SKU's with a pair of disabled cores.)
 
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jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
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IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
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Most restaurants have a gross margin of approximately 200%.
Most clothing has a gross margin of 100% - 1000%
Most designer goods (e.g. Gucci handbags) probably have a gross margin of 10,000% or higher

Yet there's nowhere near the same level of angst against Chipotle, Calvin Klein, or Luis Vuitton, despite the fact that their prices rise every year without the same consistent performance increases we see in CPUs.
Fair enough,* but that's not how you calculate gross margin. By the same metric CPUs are in the 500-1000% range.

I think you meant prices sold to cost of raw material as a ratio. Also the poster you responded to talked about company wide net margin which is again a totally different thing.

*Of course you cannot sell a product for the same as the price of the material. No one would make money and no business would exist. You typically need 2-3x as the bare minimum to keep the business afloat nevermind profitable and growing.
 

chrisjames61

Senior member
Dec 31, 2013
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Most restaurants have a gross margin of approximately 200%.
Most clothing has a gross margin of 100% - 1000%
Most designer goods (e.g. Gucci handbags) probably have a gross margin of 10,000% or higher

Yet there's nowhere near the same level of angst against Chipotle, Calvin Klein, or Luis Vuitton, despite the fact that their prices rise every year without the same consistent performance increases we see in CPUs.

People are getting stressed out needlessly IMO.

Those numbers are shear lunacy and nowhere near correct. The average gross profit for a successful eatery is around 70%. Clothing is around 45%. A Gucci handbag may cost you 10X what it costs to produce. Did you pull those numbers out of your backside?
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
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Looks like Renior will be OEM only, at least in the beginning.
Wait wait wait, is this for real? the 4600G was called 4400G and the 4300G, 4200G? AMD change the naming at the last moment to justify the price increase? this is far worse than i trought.
 

Red Hawk

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2011
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Wait wait wait, is this for real? the 4600G was called 4400G and the 4300G, 4200G? AMD change the naming at the last moment to justify the price increase? this is far worse than i trought.
What's in a name? The -600 processors in each Ryzen line have been 6 core/12 thread, so it actually makes sense for the 6 core/12 thread Renoir processor to be dubbed the 4600G. Likewise, the 4300G matches core/thread count with the 1300X, 2300X, and 3300X. The name is fine, and if you think the CPU is overpriced you're free to go buy a 10600K and a Z490 motherboard.
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
11,856
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Wait wait wait, is this for real? the 4600G was called 4400G and the 4300G, 4200G? AMD change the naming at the last moment to justify the price increase? this is far worse than i trought.
If it's OEM only it's kind of a moot point.
 

amd6502

Senior member
Apr 21, 2017
971
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If it's OEM only it's kind of a moot point.
Surely that's just temporary until supply catches up. They did the same thing during Bristol A-series FM2/AM4 APU launch. OEM's first and given about two months time the boxed retail parts start arriving.

What's in a name? The -600 processors in each Ryzen line have been 6 core/12 thread, so it actually makes sense for the 6 core/12 thread Renoir processor to be dubbed the 4600G.
I agree. This naming makes a lot more sense now.

-200 parts also were reserved for 4c/4t parts, so I found it weird that a 4200g would be 4c/8t while a 3200g was 4c/4t (and, the 3400g was also 4c/8t but with half the FPU and L3, yet higher in the numbering scale)
 
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arandomguy

Senior member
Sep 3, 2013
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Looks like Renior will be OEM only, at least in the beginning.
I've actually been waiting for Renoir since it was announced but I'm just going to write it off now as an option. The PCIe situation wasn't completely optimal for me either.

For a product basically announced at CES 2020 it looks like it'll be purchasable closer to CES 2021.

Onto Vermeer and Rocketlake! Or maybe Cezanne at this rate...
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
19,659
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Gross Margin is not same as profit.
A fair point (sort of), but if you compare AMD's net margin today to, I don't know, four years ago . . . look, they lost a lot of money back then. They are much-improved and are finally healthy, and they did it with prices that are a lot higher than what they used to charge in 2015-2016 on their new uarch products (Kaveri, Godavari, Carrizo). The zombie pricing on their 2014-and-earlier designs was all over the map. A new 8370 or 8370e was actually kind of expensive (okay only $200 but still), and 9590s still commanded prices over $300 until Ryzen came out so let's be clear, AMD wasn't selling $200-and-below across their entire lineup.

All their new stuff into which they plowed at least some development money (admittedly, not a lot since they were risking so much on Zen) was in that basic price range. The 7890k launched at $170, and that was the fastest FM2+ APU they ever launched. Today you can pay $749 for an AM4 CPU, and in October that price may be moving up.

AMD has significantly moved their price stack upwards. It's perfectly okay for consumers to say "enough". It's not entitlement or anything of the sort, and why people continue to be offended that anyone would suggest that AMD just stick to the pricing from Zen1 or Zen2 is beyond me.

Buy Nvidia then if you fill AMD is becoming evil.
Yeah lemme just go buy a TX2-based PC. That'll work real well oh wai-

On one forums you guys say AMD's GPU's are so 'inferior' than Nvidia one's that AMD should stop selling GPUs altogether.
That's what happens when you make generalizations. You get things very wrong. I don't know whom you think makes such statements, but I certainly haven't.

On other forums you guys whines why AMD reduced their APU's CU size.
We have at least one user here who uses and (apparently) sells/services APUs to a lot of people in a "down" market where APUs are popular. The way AMD is changing their product stack is apparently unfavorable to him and his customers, especially when you consider the influence of importers that control pricing and availability to a greater extent than would be seen in North America or the EU. His perspectives are his own, and while I often disagree with him, at least he's consistent.

Gross margin doesn't really tell you a lot, other than the value of your products shipped. It's the net margin that tells you if it was worth the effort or not.
What was AMD's net margin in 2015? 2016?

I never said vega is useless, but keep selling the same product over a long period is never good, no matter if is AMD, Intel, Nvidia, Cryrix or IDT.
I am thinking that Vega in Cezanne will see an update. And you have to at least agree that Vega in Renoir is improved over Raven and Picasso, at least on a per-CU basis. Even if it is mostly just clockspeed.

Renoir gives the ram speed support that Picasso needed, but it reduces the IGP size a lot, specially if we are talking about Vega 6 vs Vega 11. And at the end of the day we get no improvement in that area.
Let's be honest: AMD isn't prioritizing die real estate to iGPUs right now. It's not clear when they'll go back in that direction, if ever.

Yes I said the same thing, and I also think claiming people were "gouged" is needless hyperbole.
You can say that, but many disagree with you. Sandy -> Kaby was actually pretty bad. Hell 2600k -> 4770k was particularly bad for a lot of enthusiasts who found the uarch/process limits of the individual chips.

I just don't get why CPU enthusiasts somehow feel entitled to some arbitrary level of constantly dropping prices & rising performance, even though they're not the ones actually performing the innovation.
@AtenRa did an excellent job of explaining exactly why that is (hint: it isn't "entitlement"), but really, anyone who has followed consumer PC enthusiast communities for the last 20 years should know why people have such expectations. And really, why shouldn't they?

Yet there's nowhere near the same level of angst against Chipotle
Uh what? Chipotle is more of a luxury food vendor than, I don't know, buying bare essentials at Wal-Mart or wherever, but if you think people aren't stressed about inflation in general (rising food prices) then you're nuts. We're getting a BIT off-topic, but yes, there IS a lot of angst about food prices; housing prices; and energy prices. Consumer electronics have actually become a lot cheaper in many ways vs. capability, so it's quite common for people with decent hand-me-down PCs and/or 4G cell phones to still struggle with food and rent.

The last thing we need is for computer components central to our hobby to inflate at the same rate as food or rent!
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
19,659
8,498
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Losing a LOT of money. %-21 and %-8.
Yeah that's what I thought. And I'll give you credit for actually digging up those numbers when I guess I could have done that myself, so . . . good job, you. Not being ironic at all there either.
 

Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
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Let's be honest: AMD isn't prioritizing die real estate to iGPUs right now. It's not clear when they'll go back in that direction, if ever.
Probably when the IGPUs is not bandwidth starved again... at (ught) JEDEC STANDARDS...

Yes, i said it, a hard to swallow pill.... these IGPUs are not meant to overclock, even less memory OC, hence regressive ALU performance
 

HerrKaLeu

Member
Nov 23, 2016
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As a non-gamer with a need (or want) for a powerful CPU I was looking forward to this APU. Might have bought a hexa, or even octa core depending on price. but since AMD doesn't' sell to me, do i need to look at Intel? I don't want a dedicated graphics card for several reasons (cost, power, cooling, noise) as i don't need one. I've been happy with running 2x4K monitors from my i7700K iGPU and don't intend to change that.

Hope they change that soon and sell them to DIY people. Because their current 3000-series (which is a 2000 series) APU isn't cutting it in the CPU power department. With the cost of a dedicated graphicscard that allows 2x4K (over HDMI or displayport), I may add that $ to buy an Intel system.
 

FriedMoose

Member
Dec 14, 2019
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"All the APUs support DDR4-3200, and have eight PCIe 3.0 lanes. On the PCIe lanes, this is because the mobile chip was built with eight PCIe 3.0 lanes, to save on power in a mobile environment. AMD sees these chips being used mostly on their own without a separate discrete graphics card, given that the company already has the Ryzen 3 CPU family for those that want discrete graphics. "

So they cut PCIe lanes from 20 on the 3400G to only 8 on the 4700G? This has to be x8 3.0 for the GPU and x4 3.0 for storage, right? Perhaps an oversight by the author?

"AMD says that they are planning a consumer-grade release of APUs ‘soon’. It was stated in our briefing call that there will be a launch of a future Zen2 APU for the consumer market compatible with 500-series motherboards. The company specifically did not say 400-series, but did clarify that the 4000G series announced today was for 400 and 500 series. "

Hopefully these will have more lanes, as 400 series boards don't even have PCIe 3.0 chipset lanes.
 
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Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
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What's in a name? The -600 processors in each Ryzen line have been 6 core/12 thread, so it actually makes sense for the 6 core/12 thread Renoir processor to be dubbed the 4600G. Likewise, the 4300G matches core/thread count with the 1300X, 2300X, and 3300X. The name is fine, and if you think the CPU is overpriced you're free to go buy a 10600K and a Z490 motherboard.
NO, you are completely wrong. First off the second number was never about the number of cores or threads, your own examples are wrong, the 1300X and 2300X are 4/4 CPUs, not 4/8, then you forget about the Ryzen 3 3100 that is a 4/8 CPU.

Also who said that you cant have a 4/8 4200G when you have a 4/4 3200G??, that is called PROGESS, the 2nd number was never about cores/threads, it is used to indicate what SKU is better than the other in the same generation, thats it.
What you cant have is a $140 4200G and a $220 4400G because everyone will notice what you are doing.

and finally, there is nothing wrong with the 4400G naming considering these APU will share naming with the Zen3 CPU, the problem only happens when you want to have a 4400G that is more expensive than a 4600X. The 4400 indicates that is the lowest of the Ryzens 5, and would be correct.
 

Shivansps

Diamond Member
Sep 11, 2013
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BTW i just saw about the 4/4 Athlon 3150G Picasso, it now looks more likely than ever than the first RDNA2 APU will be a 4/4 small one below the 4300G.
 

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