Your position on free will?

[Cerpin Taxt]

Let me respond here, because this seems to be a superior crystallization of your question which confused me in your earlier post.

Originally posted by: Flyback

It was my understanding that MWI interprets that there is no "choice" of which possibility to follow--that you are, for better or worse, thrown onto an ever-dividing infinitesimal branch without anything to say about it.

How do you get the idea of "choice" in there? (I'm confused, not debating.)

The MWI describes a continuously fragmenting reality at every quantum event, where every possibility actualizes in its own reality. I assume you have a general idea of how this is supposed to work.

What I've described is the idea that our consciousness fragments likewise, sending out portions of itself into each parallel "strand." In each "strand," that portion of our consciousness accepts its reality as "actual" and the others as "probable." You are one of these, naturally. You arrived at your present reality as a consequence of identifying with that portion of your greater self that accepted these circumstances instead of something different.

Whether or not you believe it, does that make sense?

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: Vic
---snip---

Any more so than prediction could be interpreted as determinism, eh?

Good point.

On the other hand we can't we predict the weather, and few would argue that the atmosphere has free will.

I would.

Maybe my sarcasm meter is broken, but...

Do you think sentience is required for free will and/or the atmosphere is sentient?

 

[WHAMPOM]

We all have a limited choice set, for free will to exist we must access unlimited choice.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: Vic
---snip---

Any more so than prediction could be interpreted as determinism, eh?

Good point.

On the other hand we can't we predict the weather, and few would argue that the atmosphere has free will.

I would.

Maybe my sarcasm meter is broken, but...

Do you think sentience is required for free will and/or the atmosphere is sentient?

Yes, and yes, although without giving it much thought I would hesitate to regard "the atmosphere" as an entity unto itself.

It might help you understand if you considered the fact that I think the universe is panpsychic.

 

[NanoStuff]

Voting yes won't change the fact that it doesn't exist, so go nuts All of nature is subject to natural processes that determine outcome, we're no exception.

 

[Flyback]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: Flyback

What do you mean, that the consciousness selects from the vast sea of probable realities the cohesive and actual reality?

Simply put, all realities are probable realities, but the one in which we believe our respective identities dwell is the one we label "actual." These realities are chosen by means of conscious focus individually and collectively, while those seemingly "not chosen" continue to exist where portions of our consciousnesses have decided to focus on those as actual.

Isn't that, all possible realities are realities? And that our "actual" reality that we interact with is just one, whereas the others are real and exist, just not known to us, and in those the infinite clones (not connected to us whatsoever) reside?

Your use of the word "chosen" when saying, "These realities are chosen by means of conscious focus..." is where I get lost.

I don't know why, but I pictured it not as chosen, and definitely not a "conscious" focus (but the reality around us that we are conscious of is certainly determined by the branch which way they end up).

I'm lost on this :Q

 

[Vic]

Move yourself
You always live your life
Never thinking of the future
Prove yourself
You are the move you make
Take your chances win or loser

See yourself
You are the steps you take
You and you - and that's the only way

Shake - shake yourself
You're every move you make
So the story goes

Owner of a lonely heart
Owner of a lonely heart
Much better than - a
Owner of a broken heart
Owner of a lonely heart

Say - you don't want to chance it
You've been hurt so before

Watch it now
The eagle in the sky
How he dancin' one and only
You - lose yourself
No not for pity's sake
There's no real reason to be lonely
Be yourself
Give your free will a chance
You've got to want to succeed

Owner of a lonely heart
Owner of a lonely heart
Much better than - a
Owner of a broken heart
Owner of a lonely heart

Owner of a lonely heart

After my own decision
They confused me so
My love said never question your will at all
In the end you've got to go
Look before you leap
And don't you hesitate at all - no no
Owner of a lonely heart
Owner of a lonely heart
Owner of a lonely heart
Owner of a lonely heart
Much better than - a
Owner of a broken heart
Owner of a lonely heart
(repeat)

Owner of a lonely heart

Sooner or later each conclusion
Will decide the lonely heart
It will excite it will delight
It will give a better start

Owner of a lonely heart

Owner of a lonely heart

Don't deceive your free will at all
Don't deceive your free will at all
Don't deceive your free will at all
Just receive it

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Flyback

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: Flyback

What do you mean, that the consciousness selects from the vast sea of probable realities the cohesive and actual reality?

Simply put, all realities are probable realities, but the one in which we believe our respective identities dwell is the one we label "actual." These realities are chosen by means of conscious focus individually and collectively, while those seemingly "not chosen" continue to exist where portions of our consciousnesses have decided to focus on those as actual.

Isn't that, all possible realities are realities? And that our "actual" reality that we interact with is just one, whereas the others are real and exist, just not known to us, and in those the infinite clones (not connected to us whatsoever) reside?

Your use of the word "chosen" when saying, "These realities are chosen by means of conscious focus..." is where I get lost.

I don't know why, but I pictured it not as chosen, and definitely not a "conscious" focus (but the reality around us that we are conscious of is certainly determined by the branch which way they end up).

I'm lost on this :Q

Cliffs: we make it up as we go along

It's more true than you may realize.

 

[Flyback]

Originally posted by: Garth
Yes, and yes, although without giving it much thought I would hesitate to regard "the atmosphere" as an entity unto itself.

It might help you understand if you considered the fact that I think the universe is panpsychic.

Whoa!
/Neo

That was a huge left turn (you believe in the panpsychic and MWI ?)

 

[Flyback]

Originally posted by: Vic

Cliffs: we make it up as we go along

It's more true than you may realize.

Hey man, as long as I get my Eternal Return I'm cool with it.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Originally posted by: Flyback

Isn't that, all possible realities are realities? And that our "actual" reality that we interact with is just one, whereas the others are real and exist, just not known to us, and in those the infinite clones (not connected to us whatsoever) reside?

Your use of the word "chosen" when saying, "These realities are chosen by means of conscious focus..." is where I get lost.

I don't know why, but I pictured it not as chosen, and definitely not a "conscious" focus (but the reality around us that we are conscious of is certainly determined by the branch which way they end up).

I'm lost on this :Q

Its quite alright to be confused, and I won't purport to have a prepared dissertation on the mechanics of conscious choice. In other words, the "how" is certainly still the subject of speculation. I'm just describing what I believe accurately (if incompletely) describes the way things work for consciousness and many-worlds.

In a certain sense, the set of possible parallel realities is necessary. They must happen -- all of them. They are inevitable. Inescapable. These are ordinarily considered to be characteristics of deterministic realities.

Your identity is yours, however. You decide on it, continuously, without even realizing that you do it. More to the point, you regard your identity to be restricted to only 1 possible reality at a time, so that other probable "yous" are "not you." So, you will decide either to identify with the "you" that drinks 6 beers tomorrow night, or the "you" that doesn't drink any beers (or the "you" that only drinks 3 beers, etc.). All of those "yous" will exist, necessarily. The choices you make at any and every given moment determine which identity you will assume as "your" identity.

You do this whether or not you know "how" to do it, in terms of mechanics.

 

[Steve]

If Mittens saved Baby Penguin because of his beliefs, and Mittens' beliefs are not in his direct control, does Mittens really have free will?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Steve
If Mittens saved Baby Penguin because of his beliefs, and Mittens' beliefs are not in his direct control, does Mittens really have free will?

How are beliefs not in an individual's direct control?

 

[Toastedlightly]

:music:

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path thats clear
I will choose free will
:music: