Your Car is (or will be) Spying on You (WITH POLL)

[Twista]

My future car is be a 03-04 cobra mustang. Currently im happy with my 97 mustang. Theres many out there that still drive 1980's fox mustangs and are happy. Ill be one of thoses in 2008+ with my 03-04 mustang cobra.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: pinion9

Originally posted by: BigJ
But since you want literal, I guess I'll come up with a literal way. If you're en-route to the store, you're "going to" the store. If you always take a similar way to the store, software can recognize your route and predict where you're going, which really isn't all that complicated to do. It's as simple as comparing routes through a tree.

Hmm..In my city there are several routes to get to one place. Also, there are routes that take you to several places. Comparing routes through a tree? For a million drivers? It isn't as simple as writing a sub-routine.


x = CompareRoutesThroughTree(John Doe)

if (x = SecretariesHouse) {
AlertWife()
}


All done! No, it would be an NP-Hard problem and guess what! Computationally infeasible for millions of people!

My point still stands that it would take trillions of dollars in hardware in order to store the information.

Where did I say millions of people? I cited the example of people wanting to track me. On top of that, if someone wanted to argue doing this on a widespread scale, since we are talking in the future, these calculations become increasingly easier to do on a large scale with advancements.

And again, while the technology may not be there *today*, with the huge advancements in storage we're realizing, it would be downright silly to say that this couldn't be realized within many peoples' lifetimes, and possibly much sooner before that.

On top of that, it's pretty easy to see people using technology for monetary gain right now. Look at the EZ-Pass system. It's as simple as calculating the distance between tolls and finding the average speed. If the average speed was above the speed limit, I don't see what would stop Ez-Pass in conjunction with Law Enforcement from issuing tickets (although interstate could get complicated) in the future. I'm sure, if it hasn't already, will eventually wind up being an issue in the courts.

 

[Rock Hydra]

Originally posted by: Amused

Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude
big whoop

So you like the idea that everything you do in your car and every where you go can be monitored by the government and car companies?

AMG, it's like paying 10K+ for spyware!

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: pinion9

Originally posted by: BigJ
But since you want literal, I guess I'll come up with a literal way. If you're en-route to the store, you're "going to" the store. If you always take a similar way to the store, software can recognize your route and predict where you're going, which really isn't all that complicated to do. It's as simple as comparing routes through a tree.

Hmm..In my city there are several routes to get to one place. Also, there are routes that take you to several places. Comparing routes through a tree? For a million drivers? It isn't as simple as writing a sub-routine.


x = CompareRoutesThroughTree(John Doe)

if (x = SecretariesHouse) {
AlertWife()
}


All done! No, it would be an NP-Hard problem and guess what! Computationally infeasible for millions of people!

My point still stands that it would take trillions of dollars in hardware in order to store the information.

Where did I say millions of people? I cited the example of people wanting to track me. On top of that, if someone wanted to argue doing this on a widespread scale, since we are talking in the future, these calculations become increasingly easier to do on a large scale with advancements.

And again, while the technology may not be there *today*, with the huge advancements in storage we're realizing, it would be downright silly to say that this couldn't be realized within many peoples' lifetimes, and possibly much sooner before that.

On top of that, it's pretty easy to see people using technology for monetary gain right now. Look at the EZ-Pass system. It's as simple as calculating the distance between tolls and finding the average speed. If the average speed was above the speed limit, I don't see what would stop Ez-Pass in conjunction with Law Enforcement from issuing tickets (although interstate could get complicated) in the future. I'm sure, if it hasn't already, will eventually wind up being an issue in the courts.

Here in IL they proposed using the tollway pass system (I-Pass) for speed enforcement. It was met with such strong public opposition that the plan quietly died a few weeks later.

 

[Platypus]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: pinion9

Originally posted by: BigJ
But since you want literal, I guess I'll come up with a literal way. If you're en-route to the store, you're "going to" the store. If you always take a similar way to the store, software can recognize your route and predict where you're going, which really isn't all that complicated to do. It's as simple as comparing routes through a tree.

Hmm..In my city there are several routes to get to one place. Also, there are routes that take you to several places. Comparing routes through a tree? For a million drivers? It isn't as simple as writing a sub-routine.


x = CompareRoutesThroughTree(John Doe)

if (x = SecretariesHouse) {
AlertWife()
}


All done! No, it would be an NP-Hard problem and guess what! Computationally infeasible for millions of people!

My point still stands that it would take trillions of dollars in hardware in order to store the information.

Where did I say millions of people? I cited the example of people wanting to track me. On top of that, if someone wanted to argue doing this on a widespread scale, since we are talking in the future, these calculations become increasingly easier to do on a large scale with advancements.

And again, while the technology may not be there *today*, with the huge advancements in storage we're realizing, it would be downright silly to say that this couldn't be realized within many peoples' lifetimes, and possibly much sooner before that.

On top of that, it's pretty easy to see people using technology for monetary gain right now. Look at the EZ-Pass system. It's as simple as calculating the distance between tolls and finding the average speed. If the average speed was above the speed limit, I don't see what would stop Ez-Pass in conjunction with Law Enforcement from issuing tickets (although interstate could get complicated) in the future. I'm sure, if it hasn't already, will eventually wind up being an issue in the courts.

Here in IL they proposed using the tollway pass system (I-Pass) for speed enforcement. It was met with such strong public opposition that the plan quietly died a few weeks later.

Link on its death? As far as I know this is still being discussed after the plans 'success' in Texas. I'd be very interested if it was actually dead.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: K1052

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: pinion9

Originally posted by: BigJ
But since you want literal, I guess I'll come up with a literal way. If you're en-route to the store, you're "going to" the store. If you always take a similar way to the store, software can recognize your route and predict where you're going, which really isn't all that complicated to do. It's as simple as comparing routes through a tree.

Hmm..In my city there are several routes to get to one place. Also, there are routes that take you to several places. Comparing routes through a tree? For a million drivers? It isn't as simple as writing a sub-routine.


x = CompareRoutesThroughTree(John Doe)

if (x = SecretariesHouse) {
AlertWife()
}


All done! No, it would be an NP-Hard problem and guess what! Computationally infeasible for millions of people!

My point still stands that it would take trillions of dollars in hardware in order to store the information.

Where did I say millions of people? I cited the example of people wanting to track me. On top of that, if someone wanted to argue doing this on a widespread scale, since we are talking in the future, these calculations become increasingly easier to do on a large scale with advancements.

And again, while the technology may not be there *today*, with the huge advancements in storage we're realizing, it would be downright silly to say that this couldn't be realized within many peoples' lifetimes, and possibly much sooner before that.

On top of that, it's pretty easy to see people using technology for monetary gain right now. Look at the EZ-Pass system. It's as simple as calculating the distance between tolls and finding the average speed. If the average speed was above the speed limit, I don't see what would stop Ez-Pass in conjunction with Law Enforcement from issuing tickets (although interstate could get complicated) in the future. I'm sure, if it hasn't already, will eventually wind up being an issue in the courts.

Here in IL they proposed using the tollway pass system (I-Pass) for speed enforcement. It was met with such strong public opposition that the plan quietly died a few weeks later.

There ya go. Perfect example. Thankfully people actually spoke up about it.

 

[chambersc]

I for one welcome my new overseeing overlords.

 

[pinion9]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: pinion9
Why would anyone want to log all the places people go? Imagine the sheer amount of storage that would take! Imagine having to hire analysts to go through it and make sense of it all. Sure, some may like to have the ability to constantly record everyones lives, but it isn't feasible.

Let's assume that there are 50 million drivers, and each driver's day takes up 1 MB of storage. For 1 day, there would be 50,000,000 MB of storage (or 50 terabytes) of storage FOR 1 DAY! No matter how rich your company is, you would not be able to afford it, nor would you be able to afford all the storage space, cooling, power, and equipment and staff to support that storage.

Not feasible. Never going to happen.

dude, it's called a database. you store latitude, longitude, velocity/acceleration, and there you go.. you can tell where a car was going and how fast at any point. sure it's a lot of data, but as long as you can devise a system to quickly analyse it (say, within 1 business week), within that week you hike jack the rates up on someone. they don't have to store it, they just have to look at it to fvck with you.

plus with holographic data storage, 1 TB will be nothing

Do any of you have any idea how much 1 TB of storage costs? You can't just say "Well, I can get a 80GB hard drive for 40 bucks, so that is .50 a gig. 1 TB then costs $500."

You have to have the SANs to support it, network infrastructure, etc. We just purchased 7 TB of storage at it cost around $180,000, or around ~25,000 per TB when you factor in all the necessary hardware. That would cost $1.25 million per day for storage.

I'm not going to argue with all of you. It would, in my opinion, not be very easy nor smart to try and store this volume of information for long periods of time. Sure, you might be able to do it for weeks at a time if you are a huge company, but then you have to realize that you would need to analyze this data in very short order.

 

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Do they really care about us to watch us that much?

If you stand for nothing, say nothing, think nothing and spend your whole life following the herd, no, they probably don't.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: pinion9

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: pinion9
Why would anyone want to log all the places people go? Imagine the sheer amount of storage that would take! Imagine having to hire analysts to go through it and make sense of it all. Sure, some may like to have the ability to constantly record everyones lives, but it isn't feasible.

Let's assume that there are 50 million drivers, and each driver's day takes up 1 MB of storage. For 1 day, there would be 50,000,000 MB of storage (or 50 terabytes) of storage FOR 1 DAY! No matter how rich your company is, you would not be able to afford it, nor would you be able to afford all the storage space, cooling, power, and equipment and staff to support that storage.

Not feasible. Never going to happen.

dude, it's called a database. you store latitude, longitude, velocity/acceleration, and there you go.. you can tell where a car was going and how fast at any point. sure it's a lot of data, but as long as you can devise a system to quickly analyse it (say, within 1 business week), within that week you hike jack the rates up on someone. they don't have to store it, they just have to look at it to fvck with you.

plus with holographic data storage, 1 TB will be nothing

Do any of you have any idea how much 1 TB of storage costs? You can't just say "Well, I can get a 80GB hard drive for 40 bucks, so that is .50 a gig. 1 TB then costs $500."

You have to have the SANs to support it, network infrastructure, etc. We just purchased 7 TB of storage at it cost around $180,000, or around ~25,000 per TB when you factor in all the necessary hardware. That would cost $1.25 million per day for storage.

I'm not going to argue with all of you. It would, in my opinion, not be very easy nor smart to try and store this volume of information for long periods of time. Sure, you might be able to do it for weeks at a time if you are a huge company, but then you have to realize that you would need to analyze this data in very short order.

Why don't you see that before you store and analyze the data, you need to have the infrastructure in place to collect such data?

Technology, especially in this area, advances extremely quickly.

The hard part is getting the public to comply with the invasion of their privacy. After that, it's Easy Street.

 

[ArchCenturion]

Maybe they should just surgically put chips in our brains, and control our actions. That would make everything much simpler.

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: phantom309

Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Do they really care about us to watch us that much?

If you stand for nothing, say nothing, think nothing and spend your whole life following the herd, no, they probably don't.

Well lets see, my house is almost paid off.. it was a 30 year loan and it's been 3 years (I make quadrouple payments and other principal payments when I can). I am not part of the democratic or republican party cause they both suck. I have no religion.

I guess if anything I am a bad American... I guess I better watch out

 

[phantom309]

Originally posted by: ArchCenturion
Maybe they should just surgically put chips in our brains, and control our actions. That would make everything much simpler.

It'd solve the storage problem by making us all thin clients. I like it.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: pinion9

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: pinion9
Why would anyone want to log all the places people go? Imagine the sheer amount of storage that would take! Imagine having to hire analysts to go through it and make sense of it all. Sure, some may like to have the ability to constantly record everyones lives, but it isn't feasible.

Let's assume that there are 50 million drivers, and each driver's day takes up 1 MB of storage. For 1 day, there would be 50,000,000 MB of storage (or 50 terabytes) of storage FOR 1 DAY! No matter how rich your company is, you would not be able to afford it, nor would you be able to afford all the storage space, cooling, power, and equipment and staff to support that storage.

Not feasible. Never going to happen.

dude, it's called a database. you store latitude, longitude, velocity/acceleration, and there you go.. you can tell where a car was going and how fast at any point. sure it's a lot of data, but as long as you can devise a system to quickly analyse it (say, within 1 business week), within that week you hike jack the rates up on someone. they don't have to store it, they just have to look at it to fvck with you.

plus with holographic data storage, 1 TB will be nothing

Do any of you have any idea how much 1 TB of storage costs? You can't just say "Well, I can get a 80GB hard drive for 40 bucks, so that is .50 a gig. 1 TB then costs $500."

You have to have the SANs to support it, network infrastructure, etc. We just purchased 7 TB of storage at it cost around $180,000, or around ~25,000 per TB when you factor in all the necessary hardware. That would cost $1.25 million per day for storage.

I'm not going to argue with all of you. It would, in my opinion, not be very easy nor smart to try and store this volume of information for long periods of time. Sure, you might be able to do it for weeks at a time if you are a huge company, but then you have to realize that you would need to analyze this data in very short order.

Why don't you see that before you store and analyze the data, you need to have the infrastructure in place to collect such data?

Technology, especially in this area, advances extremely quickly.

The hard part is getting the public to comply with the invasion of their privacy. After that, it's Easy Street.

actually the easy part is getting the public to comply with a invasion of privacy. hell you have people more then willing to give up rights.

all it takes is make people beleive that something bad is going to happen unless we do it.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: waggy
actually the easy part is getting the public to comply with a invasion of privacy. hell you have people more then willing to give up rights.

all it takes is make people beleive that something bad is going to happen unless we do it.

A couple of years ago, I'd agree with you. Since the Bush Administration, privacy has come to the front as a major issue. Patriot Act, Wire Tapping, Phone Companies working w/ the government, etc. And things that have nothing to do with the Administartion, like identity theft. People are starting to wake up big time.

Especially true when it has an impact on their wallets.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: waggy
actually the easy part is getting the public to comply with a invasion of privacy. hell you have people more then willing to give up rights.

all it takes is make people beleive that something bad is going to happen unless we do it.

A couple of years ago, I'd agree with you. Since the Bush Administration, privacy has come to the front as a major issue. Patriot Act, Wire Tapping, Phone Companies working w/ the government, etc. And things that have nothing to do with the Administartion, like identity theft. People are starting to wake up big time.

not fast enough.

granted one judge made a good ruling but how long will that last? at least until the SC gets ahold of it. then it will be legal. and the majority will not care. they have the "if you are not doing something wrong why worry?" attitude.

it really makes me wonder what is next.

 

[BigJ]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: BigJ

Originally posted by: waggy
actually the easy part is getting the public to comply with a invasion of privacy. hell you have people more then willing to give up rights.

all it takes is make people beleive that something bad is going to happen unless we do it.

A couple of years ago, I'd agree with you. Since the Bush Administration, privacy has come to the front as a major issue. Patriot Act, Wire Tapping, Phone Companies working w/ the government, etc. And things that have nothing to do with the Administartion, like identity theft. People are starting to wake up big time.

not fast enough.

granted one judge made a good ruling but how long will that last? at least until the SC gets ahold of it. then it will be legal. and the majority will not care. they have the "if you are not doing something wrong why worry?" attitude.

it really makes me wonder what is next.

I hear ya. In my edit I think I added an important point in that, when it starts to impact a person's wallet, people react much more quickly.

For example, red-light cameras and the Electronic Toll Pass Monitoring.

 

[JImmyK]

That is why for the rest of my life I will drive a 1996 LX450/LAnd Cruiser with Solid axles and diff locks front & back...

 

[secretanchitman]

our family probably wont buy a new car until my dads 1997 merecedes E420 breaks down. 10 years and its still running strong with no accidents/dents or anything!

stupid EDR. 2 thumbs wayyyyy down.

 

[Kyanzes]

Fascinating. You just stepped on the gas when you get an sms that the penalty got deducted from your account.

 

[artikk]

If you don't want to be supposedly spied on, don't purchase the car, or change the legislation by running for congress. Otherwise, worrying about what could, would, and might happen, is irrelevant. One cannot change the current situation unless you would go to remove the EDR from your car manually or change the mandatory legislation(above). Whining about it is immature. Besides, I do not think that the government would have the resources or the motivation to spy on each car and truck installed with the edrs.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: pinion9
My point still stands that it would take trillions of dollars in hardware in order to store the information.

No way. There's simply not that much data that would need to be stored. 1MB per person per day?? Not even close. But, even if it was, then a GB of storage would last for about 3 years per person. Let's go with a 500GB drive for $100. So for $200, we could cover 1000 people for 3 years. For 200,000, we could cover a million people for 3 years. To cover 100 million people, tack on 2 more zeros. $20,000,000 would cover the storage part of the hardware. Multiply by 10 in case I'm off... $200 million for storage. Let's say that's only 10% of the total cost. $2 billion for the entire system. 1000 times less costly than you thought. Pocket change for the US gov't.

But, I'll bet the data storage would be more like a few kb per person per day. Ever heard of compression? Drive down a straight road at a relatively constant speed for 2 minutes, and a data sampled at a rate of once per second could be compressed to 1% of its initial size quite easily.

However, I really don't care if my driving habits are monitored. I'm not a bad driver... I'm not out breaking laws. My insurance, if anything, would end up dropping.

 

[PrinceofWands]

No worries. There'll be a booming black market business removing them or turning them off. Lord knows I'd never allow one in my vehicles.

 

[pinion9]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: pinion9
My point still stands that it would take trillions of dollars in hardware in order to store the information.

No way. There's simply not that much data that would need to be stored. 1MB per person per day?? Not even close. But, even if it was, then a GB of storage would last for about 3 years per person. Let's go with a 500GB drive for $100. So for $200, we could cover 1000 people for 3 years. For 200,000, we could cover a million people for 3 years. To cover 100 million people, tack on 2 more zeros. $20,000,000 would cover the storage part of the hardware. Multiply by 10 in case I'm off... $200 million for storage. Let's say that's only 10% of the total cost. $2 billion for the entire system. 1000 times less costly than you thought. Pocket change for the US gov't.

But, I'll bet the data storage would be more like a few kb per person per day. Ever heard of compression? Drive down a straight road at a relatively constant speed for 2 minutes, and a data sampled at a rate of once per second could be compressed to 1% of its initial size quite easily.

However, I really don't care if my driving habits are monitored. I'm not a bad driver... I'm not out breaking laws. My insurance, if anything, would end up dropping.

Sorry, storage DOES NOT SCALE LIKE THAT. How do I know? I work with SANs. If storage scaled like that we would just go buy a bunch of hard drives. When you start getting more disks, you need the infrastructure to support it. Please see my above post where price was around $25k per TB.

Yes, I have heard of compression. However, you need to keep in mind that a lot of information would need to be stored. You are talking about time stamps, location, speed, etc. How frequent do you want the information updated? Even if you compressed down so each timestamp/location/speed/identifier is 100 bytes (which would be near impossible considering you would need to capture VIN, time, day/month/year, location, speed, etc.), it would only take 10 of these to make 1KB. So, only 10,000 of these stamps to make 1 MB. That would equate, in a day, to one event every 8 seconds or so, which would be terrible resolution.

 

[pinion9]

Originally posted by: pinion9
and a data sampled at a rate of once per second could be compressed to 1% of its initial size quite easily.

Please provide the algorithm that would do this. At the very least each stamp would need VIN and change from last point. Compression is just not that simple.