You thought NPR was fluffy before?? Now they claim plants have minds

[Throckmorton]

This is really stupid. Plants don't have minds. They "react" to environmental stimuli because of other mechanisms that have nothing to do with thought or instinct. Forget Fox News. Now you can get your bullshit pseudoscience from a trusted source.


http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2011/12/02/143041917/do-plants-have-minds?sc=fb&cc=fp

Granted, by human and animal measures, plants are very slow. But surely it is prejudice to think that only movements and responsiveness that occurs on time scales that seem natural to us count as legitimately expressive of intelligence and mind.



... if plants have minds, then perhaps they show that you don't need a brain to have a mind, and that's a strange and exciting possibility.

 

[OutHouse]

were you the case study?

 

[sandorski]

Haven't read it, but just appears to be someone thinking out loud about what a "Mind" is.

Seems like another P&N Thread of no consequence.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It's a bloody blog with an opinion. Egads.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

a) That blog does not "claim plants have minds." It is a theoretical discussion by a philosophy professor (whose academic credentials include a PhD from Harvard, a BA from Columbia and a BPhil from Oxford) regarding the fact that plants are living things which react to stimuli in a relatively complex fashion.

b) This is a blog, by one person, which happens to be published on NPR's website. It was not broadcast on NPR. There is no reason to believe, even if the blog post claimed, as your OP falsely indicates, that plants have brains, that this is a view which NPR itself adopted.

If, as appears to be the case, you're simply looking for reasons to dislike NPR, you'll have to look further than this.

 

[bfdd]

Plants are living creatures with their own level of consciousness. Just like a pig is a living creature with its own level of consciousness. They aren't on our level, they might be above or below, who knows. All we know is that the way they live and perceive the world has to be drastically different than ours. This is why I do not like PETA or anyone who is a vegan for not eating animals. Arbitrary idiocy is what allows fools to draw different lines between living creatures on what is ok and not ok to eat. If you're ok with ending life, plant life, why is animal life any different?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Plants are living creatures with their own level of consciousness. Just like a pig is a living creature with its own level of consciousness. They aren't on our level, they might be above or below, who knows. All we know is that the way they live and perceive the world has to be drastically different than ours. This is why I do not like PETA or anyone who is a vegan for not eating animals. Arbitrary idiocy is what allows fools to draw different lines between living creatures on what is ok and not ok to eat. If you're ok with ending life, plant life, why is animal life any different?

I am not a vegetarian and don't have ethical qualms about eating meat, but I don't think there's much question that animals, particularly mammals, have a level of cognition which far exceeds anything plants do, and there is a wealth of empirical data to suggest that animals exhibit a great deal of intelligence within particular spheres. While there are admittedly some annoying vegetarians in the world, I don't blame anyone who doesn't feel comfortable eating an animal (though I might take issue with their proselytizing about it). Honestly I too am far from thrilled about the indignities commercially farmed livestock are subjected to.

 

[IGBT]

yet another thing for the eco-KOOKS to be alarmed about.

 

[bfdd]

I am not a vegetarian and don't have ethical qualms about eating meat, but I don't think there's much question that animals, particularly mammals, have a level of cognition which far exceeds anything plants do, and there is a wealth of empirical data to suggest that animals exhibit a great deal of intelligence within particular spheres. While there are admittedly some annoying vegetarians in the world, I don't blame anyone who doesn't feel comfortable eating an animal (though I might take issue with their proselytizing about it). Honestly I too am far from thrilled about the indignities commercially farmed livestock are subjected to.

Yes, every different living thing has a different level of consciousness and varying degrees we might be able to identify with, my point is that NO living creature shares our level of consciousness and to weigh them back and forth is arbitrary. Which is better? Which deserves to live more? The answer is none, they're both successes as they both exist and live. So arbitrary bullshit for foolish morons who assign human properties to animals. Which is wrong and completely unfair to the other animals.

 

[DrPizza]

To address the OP by quoting the OP:

Don Vito's responses summed it up best.

 

[JSt0rm]

I know its getting a bit off topic but the one thing I cant stand is fur. They skin the animals alive. Thats just fucked up and I dont think in a modern world we should be skinning animals alive.

 

[Throckmorton]

a) That blog does not "claim plants have minds." It is a theoretical discussion by a philosophy professor (whose academic credentials include a PhD from Harvard, a BA from Columbia and a BPhil from Oxford) regarding the fact that plants are living things which react to stimuli in a relatively complex fashion.

b) This is a blog, by one person, which happens to be published on NPR's website. It was not broadcast on NPR. There is no reason to believe, even if the blog post claimed, as your OP falsely indicates, that plants have brains, that this is a view which NPR itself adopted.

If, as appears to be the case, you're simply looking for reasons to dislike NPR, you'll have to look further than this.

It's pseudoscience bullshit and it's being peddled by NPR. Being a "blog" doesn't excuse them from journalistic standards. For a long time they've been pushing fluffy stories, especially on programs like All Things Considered. I think that's what this kind of tripe is meant to be, but they went way over the line into the realm of pseudoscience.

 

[bfdd]

I know its getting a bit off topic but the one thing I cant stand is fur. They skin the animals alive. Thats just fucked up and I dont think in a modern world we should be skinning animals alive.

I'll agree with that. I don't think we should take without taking/using all of the creature. Killing just to take a small section is a gigantic waste.

 

[Throckmorton]

Yes, every different living thing has a different level of consciousness and varying degrees we might be able to identify with, my point is that NO living creature shares our level of consciousness and to weigh them back and forth is arbitrary. Which is better? Which deserves to live more? The answer is none, they're both successes as they both exist and live. So arbitrary bullshit for foolish morons who assign human properties to animals. Which is wrong and completely unfair to the other animals.

Other vertebrates do feel emotions like affection, fear, anger, boredom, and suffering. Less complex animals have some degree of sentience too.

But plants don't... There is no such thing as "plant neurobiology" because plants don't have neurons or anything equivalent.

 

[JSt0rm]

I dont even care if they killed them honestly. Just dont skin them and throw them away alive. I'm not going to eat a mink. Take its fur fine but kill it as humanly as possible before doing it. Or a white fox? Thats a intelligent creature. It knows whats about to happen.

 

[bfdd]

Other vertebrates do feel emotions like affection, fear, anger, boredom, and suffering. Less complex animals have some degree of sentience too.

But plants don't... There is no such thing as "plant neurobiology" because plants don't have neurons or anything equivalent.

Limited by our ability to perceive the universe through our own senses. Stop being so closed minded. Also, even though certain vertebrates feel emotions similar to ours, they are not ours. It is impossible for a creature with a different make up to ours(even though similar) to feel the exact same way. Just like it is impossible for me to feel the same exact emotions you have though an even greater disparity.

I dont even care if they killed them honestly. Just dont skin them and throw them away alive. I'm not going to eat a mink. Take its fur fine but kill it as humanly as possible before doing it. Or a white fox? Thats a intelligent creature. It knows whats about to happen.

Meh I'm really not ok with just killing to take their coat. There's perfectly good meat and other things that can be utilized off the animal as well it's just a waste of resources imo.

 

[Macamus Prime]

The worst part of it all is how NPR is forcing there "perhaps" discussion down our throats!!!

Look out!! The NPR is about to kick down your door, rifle butt your wife in the face, shoot your son in the head and smack the shit out of your daughter as they beat and break your body!!!!

 

[nobodyknows]

a)
If, as appears to be the case, you're simply looking for reasons to dislike NPR, you'll have to look further than this.

That requires a mind.

 

[Infohawk]

This thread is embarrassing for OP.

 

[DominionSeraph]

This thread is embarrassing for OP.

Yeah, there are plants smarter than this thread.

 

[Thump553]

This thread is embarrassing for OP.

True that. Pretty silly thing (and a huge, huge stretch) for the OP to get his panties all in a wad about.

 

[IronWing]

Hmmm, rocks respond to stimuli, albeit very, very slowly. They are only truely happy under the conditions in which they form. Once placed in a new environment, rocks react, changing to become stable in the new environment. But again, they respond so very slowly. I think they are probably very deep, deliberate thinkers.

 

[Throckmorton]

The worst part of it all is how NPR is forcing there "perhaps" discussion down our throats!!!

Look out!! The NPR is about to kick down your door, rifle butt your wife in the face, shoot your son in the head and smack the shit out of your daughter as they beat and break your body!!!!

Where the fuck did I say they were "forcing it down our throats"?

I said it's stupid fluff.

I can't believe people are defending this tripe. This is pure pseudoscience bullshit and NPR should be embarassed to be giving it a platform on their website. The attitude that "opinions" aren't right or wrong is why Creationism and mysticism have such a foothold in America. NPR is a news outlet, not a mystical yoga acupuncturist blog.

On the bright side, a lot of the commenters on the Facebook post are just as annoyed as I am. Then again a lot are saying, "Wow this is awesome!" BTW, see the problem there? It's baseless bullshit, but it's presented by the NPR ecosystem. It's just as bad as when Fox pushes lies and half truths under the guise of "opinion". The authority of the source is enough for a lot of people to fall for it.

 

[Throckmorton]

Limited by our ability to perceive the universe through our own senses. Stop being so closed minded. Also, even though certain vertebrates feel emotions similar to ours, they are not ours. It is impossible for a creature with a different make up to ours(even though similar) to feel the exact same way. Just like it is impossible for me to feel the same exact emotions you have though an even greater disparity.

Plants
do
not
think

 

[bfdd]

Hmmm, rocks respond to stimuli, albeit very, very slowly. They are only truely happy under the conditions in which they form. Once placed in a new environment, rocks react, changing to become stable in the new environment. But again, they respond so very slowly. I think they are probably very deep, deliberate thinkers.

Consciousness is a philosophical debate. One can argue that a hydrogen atom has consciousness, it knows everything it needs to function as a hydrogen atom and does so quite flawlessly. Some also believe our consciousness is just the collective of individual pieces that form us. Not sure how far down the hole I'm willing to go yet, but I do believe everything has some level of consciousness and it's really arbitrary to compare them since they're so vastly different in the way they interact with the universe around them.

Plants
do
not
think

On any level you or I are capable of understanding so far, yes, that doesn't mean they don't have a consciousness.