You think up a title... "US tactics condemned by British officers "

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
US tactics condemned by British officers
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 11/04/2004)


Senior British commanders have condemned American military tactics in Iraq as heavy-handed and disproportionate.

One senior Army officer told The Telegraph that America's aggressive methods were causing friction among allied commanders and that there was a growing sense of "unease and frustration" among the British high command.

The officer, who agreed to the interview on the condition of anonymity, said that part of the problem was that American troops viewed Iraqis as untermenschen - the Nazi expression for "sub-humans".

Speaking from his base in southern Iraq, the officer said: "My view and the view of the British chain of command is that the Americans' use of violence is not proportionate and is over-responsive to the threat they are facing. They don't see the Iraqi people the way we see them. They view them as untermenschen. They are not concerned about the Iraqi loss of life in the way the British are. Their attitude towards the Iraqis is tragic, it's awful.

"The US troops view things in very simplistic terms. It seems hard for them to reconcile subtleties between who supports what and who doesn't in Iraq. It's easier for their soldiers to group all Iraqis as the bad guys. As far as they are concerned Iraq is bandit country and everybody is out to kill them."

The phrase untermenschen - literally "under-people" - was brought to prominence by Adolf Hitler in his book Mein Kampf, published in 1925. He used the term to describe those he regarded as racially inferior: Jews, Slaves and gipsies.

Although no formal complaints have as yet been made to their American counterparts, the officer said the British Government was aware of its commanders' "concerns and fears".

The officer explained that, under British military rules of war, British troops would never be given clearance to carry out attacks similar to those being conducted by the US military, in which helicopter gunships have been used to fire on targets in urban areas.

British rules of engagement only allow troops to open fire when attacked, using the minimum force necessary and only at identified targets.

The American approach was markedly different: "When US troops are attacked with mortars in Baghdad, they use mortar-locating radar to find the firing point and then attack the general area with artillery, even though the area they are attacking may be in the middle of a densely populated residential area.

"They may well kill the terrorists in the barrage but they will also kill and maim innocent civilians. That has been their response on a number of occasions. It is trite, but American troops do shoot first and ask questions later. They are very concerned about taking casualties and have even trained their guns on British troops, which has led to some confrontations between soldiers.

"The British response in Iraq has been much softer. During and after the war the British set about trying to win the confidence of the local population. There have been problems, it hasn't been easy but on the whole it was succeeding."

The officer believed that America had now lost the military initiative in Iraq, and it could only be regained with carefully planned, precision attacks against the "terrorists".

"The US will have to abandon the sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut approach - it has failed," he said. "They need to stop viewing every Iraqi, every Arab as the enemy and attempt to win the hearts and minds of the people.

"Our objective is to create a stable, democratic and safe Iraq. That's achievable but not in the short term. It is going to take up to 10 years."



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/11/wtact11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/11/ixnewstop.html
 

onelove

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2001
1,656
0
0
thanks for the post & link. The "overwhelming force" approach is great for a desert battlefield - I think this is the battleplan straight from Rumsfeld's office for retaking the cities that are under Iraqi control (so we can give it back to the Iraqis when we are ready). Cuz these Iraqis only understand brute force, is, I think, the rationale.
the US responded to the killing of the four US contractors in Fallujah by sending in 1,200 Marines to launch a medieval siege, one in which they initially refused to allow ambulances in or out. If the Americans really believed they were being attacked by a tiny minority, Iraqis asked, why were they attacking a city of 300,000 people? The result has been to turn Fallujah into a nationalist and religious symbol for all Iraqis.
...
After the siege of Fallujah, the US army promises that Mr Sadr will be "crushed", which means a military assault on the Shias' holy city of Najaf and possibly Karbala. Even if it backs off - and yesterday it declared a ceasefire in Fallujah - it will mean that the insurgents will have achieved a sort of official recognition.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=510450
 

Shad0hawK

Banned
May 26, 2003
1,456
0
0
Originally posted by: dahunan
US tactics condemned by British officers
By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 11/04/2004)


Senior British commanders have condemned American military tactics in Iraq as heavy-handed and disproportionate.

One senior Army officer told The Telegraph that America's aggressive methods were causing friction among allied commanders and that there was a growing sense of "unease and frustration" among the British high command.

The officer, who agreed to the interview on the condition of anonymity, said that part of the problem was that American troops viewed Iraqis as untermenschen - the Nazi expression for "sub-humans".

Speaking from his base in southern Iraq, the officer said: "My view and the view of the British chain of command is that the Americans' use of violence is not proportionate and is over-responsive to the threat they are facing. They don't see the Iraqi people the way we see them. They view them as untermenschen. They are not concerned about the Iraqi loss of life in the way the British are. Their attitude towards the Iraqis is tragic, it's awful.

"The US troops view things in very simplistic terms. It seems hard for them to reconcile subtleties between who supports what and who doesn't in Iraq. It's easier for their soldiers to group all Iraqis as the bad guys. As far as they are concerned Iraq is bandit country and everybody is out to kill them."

The phrase untermenschen - literally "under-people" - was brought to prominence by Adolf Hitler in his book Mein Kampf, published in 1925. He used the term to describe those he regarded as racially inferior: Jews, Slaves and gipsies.

Although no formal complaints have as yet been made to their American counterparts, the officer said the British Government was aware of its commanders' "concerns and fears".

The officer explained that, under British military rules of war, British troops would never be given clearance to carry out attacks similar to those being conducted by the US military, in which helicopter gunships have been used to fire on targets in urban areas.

British rules of engagement only allow troops to open fire when attacked, using the minimum force necessary and only at identified targets.

The American approach was markedly different: "When US troops are attacked with mortars in Baghdad, they use mortar-locating radar to find the firing point and then attack the general area with artillery, even though the area they are attacking may be in the middle of a densely populated residential area.

"They may well kill the terrorists in the barrage but they will also kill and maim innocent civilians. That has been their response on a number of occasions. It is trite, but American troops do shoot first and ask questions later. They are very concerned about taking casualties and have even trained their guns on British troops, which has led to some confrontations between soldiers.

"The British response in Iraq has been much softer. During and after the war the British set about trying to win the confidence of the local population. There have been problems, it hasn't been easy but on the whole it was succeeding."

The officer believed that America had now lost the military initiative in Iraq, and it could only be regained with carefully planned, precision attacks against the "terrorists".

"The US will have to abandon the sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut approach - it has failed," he said. "They need to stop viewing every Iraqi, every Arab as the enemy and attempt to win the hearts and minds of the people.

"Our objective is to create a stable, democratic and safe Iraq. That's achievable but not in the short term. It is going to take up to 10 years."



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/11/wtact11.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/11/ixnewstop.html


that is extremly odd since a few motnhs ago ti was the other way around...

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,862
6,396
126
I think the problem is how easily the US Military can get knocked of course. It's probably due to Political interference, but could have something to do with the upper crust of the military command, whatever the cause it seems easy for the enemy to throw Monkey Wrenches into US led missions. Just consider how a similar situation occured in Somalia and the results of that, seems to be happening yet again in Iraq.

Americans need to figure something out, America is only the Best, Free, Democracy, or Number 1 to Americans. Those living outside the US are not as impressed with the US as Americans are! This doesn't mean that Foreigners are "Anti-American", it simply means they are exactly like Americans, "Pro-Themselves".
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,765
615
126
Originally posted by: sandorski
Americans need to figure something out, America is only the Best, Free, Democracy, or Number 1 to Americans. Those living outside the US are not as impressed with the US as Americans are! This doesn't mean that Foreigners are "Anti-American", it simply means they are exactly like Americans, "Pro-Themselves".

I think a lot people miss this point as well. We can't expect other nations to not seek to do whats best for them when we are doing the same. And I imagine we look mighty arrogant acting like we have the solution to all their problems, especially when we seem to be trying to impose a 'one size fits all' democracy model onto them.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
17,018
5,080
136
Originally posted by: sandorski
I think the problem is how easily the US Military can get knocked of course. It's probably due to Political interference, but could have something to do with the upper crust of the military command, whatever the cause it seems easy for the enemy to throw Monkey Wrenches into US led missions. Just consider how a similar situation occured in Somalia and the results of that, seems to be happening yet again in Iraq.

Americans need to figure something out, America is only the Best, Free, Democracy, or Number 1 to Americans. Those living outside the US are not as impressed with the US as Americans are! This doesn't mean that Foreigners are "Anti-American", it simply means they are exactly like Americans, "Pro-Themselves".




Thank you!

 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
hmm....so how is the British sector doing? haven't heard of anything lately there. No uprisings?
 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Unfortunately, I think the British may be right. I have a feeling we are making things worse with this approach.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,946
6,796
126
Unfortunately, if we had any brains or psychological savvy wouldn't be in Iraq.
 

DashRiprock

Member
Aug 31, 2001
166
0
76
Originally posted by: maddogchen
hmm....so how is the British sector doing? haven't heard of anything lately there. No uprisings?

They're nowhere near the Sunni triangle.
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
The Brits are in the equivalent of Club Med in Iraq. This one officers views are skewed by his lack of knowledge of the "big picture". What does a foreign officer know about U.S. tactics in another part of the country? He knows what the press is reporting, and that's why his statement is likely worthless as one issued by Pee Wee Herman.
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
Originally posted by: DashRiprock
Originally posted by: maddogchen
hmm....so how is the British sector doing? haven't heard of anything lately there. No uprisings?

They're nowhere near the Sunni triangle.

yes but they control a major shiite city, Basra. Just wondering if Sadr's shiite uprising spread there. And if not, could it be what the British are doing differently is better?
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool
600 dead Iraqis over 4 dead US mercenaries. Yeah, I would call that disproportionate.

Yes, and Conjur says they were all women, children and elderly. Probably shot in the back, or while surrendering no less.
rolleye.gif
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
Originally posted by: SuperTool
600 dead Iraqis over 4 dead US mercenaries. Yeah, I would call that disproportionate.

600+ Iraqis pointing weapons at Coalition soldiers. 600 dead Iraqis. Nothing disproportionate about that.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: SuperTool
600 dead Iraqis over 4 dead US mercenaries. Yeah, I would call that disproportionate.

Yes, and Conjur says they were all women, children and elderly. Probably shot in the back, or while surrendering no less.
rolleye.gif

I don't say...the hospitals and the gravesites say it:

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2769949

Most of the Iraqis killed in Fallujah in fighting that started last Monday were women, children and elderly, said the director of the city hospital, Rafie al-Issawi.

A marine commander disputed that, saying most of the dead were probably insurgents.

Fallujah residents took advantage of the lull in fighting to bury their dead in two football fields. One of the fields had rows of freshly dug graves, some marked on headstones as children or with the names of women.
 

beer

Lifer
Jun 27, 2000
11,169
1
0
Women and children were cheering as they lynched the four contractors. And I have a feeling that events in this article are referring directly to fallujia. The US has been letting women, children, and old men leave during all daylight hours. Sounds like it's their own fault if they choose to stay.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
2
0
Originally posted by: beer
Women and children were cheering as they lynched the four contractors. And I have a feeling that events in this article are referring directly to fallujia. The US has been letting women, children, and old men leave during all daylight hours. Sounds like it's their own fault if they choose to stay.

Yeah, it's their own fault they didn't take their children and go for a walk in the desert for a week
rolleye.gif
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: SuperTool
600 dead Iraqis over 4 dead US mercenaries. Yeah, I would call that disproportionate.

Yes, and Conjur says they were all women, children and elderly. Probably shot in the back, or while surrendering no less.
rolleye.gif

I don't say...the hospitals and the gravesites say it:

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2769949

Most of the Iraqis killed in Fallujah in fighting that started last Monday were women, children and elderly, said the director of the city hospital, Rafie al-Issawi.

A marine commander disputed that, saying most of the dead were probably insurgents.

Fallujah residents took advantage of the lull in fighting to bury their dead in two football fields. One of the fields had rows of freshly dug graves, some marked on headstones as children or with the names of women.

Oh yah? are there 600 of them? Or does it say....


SOME...not MOST

Good enough for you, eh?
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Originally posted by: beer
Women and children were cheering as they lynched the four contractors. And I have a feeling that events in this article are referring directly to fallujia. The US has been letting women, children, and old men leave during all daylight hours. Sounds like it's their own fault if they choose to stay.

Yeah, it's their own fault they didn't take their children and go for a walk in the desert for a week
rolleye.gif

Try mutilating 4 government employees in small town USA on live TV, then barricade and arm your town. See what response you get here. Or anywhere.
 

onelove

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2001
1,656
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Try mutilating 4 government employees in small town USA on live TV, then barricade and arm your town. See what response you get here. Or anywhere.

Iraq is not "small town USA". If there were Iraqi mercenaries occupying my town, I'd be the going after them as well.

How can you not see this???
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: onelove
Originally posted by: alchemize
Try mutilating 4 government employees in small town USA on live TV, then barricade and arm your town. See what response you get here. Or anywhere.

Iraq is not "small town USA". If there were Iraqi mercenaries occupying my town, I'd be the going after them as well.

How can you not see this???

And don't forget your wife and kids make great shields!
 

onelove

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2001
1,656
0
0
The American approach was markedly different: "When US troops are attacked with mortars in Baghdad, they use mortar-locating radar to find the firing point and then attack the general area with artillery, even though the area they are attacking may be in the middle of a densely populated residential area. *
*according to the british officer, who apparently is disbelieved because he is not physically present to observe the fight...
 

onelove

Golden Member
Dec 1, 2001
1,656
0
0
I don't think the Iraqis appreciate having the militants shooting out their windows, but the militants are armed and the citizens in the house might not be armed or prepared to resist. The point is that the tactics used are charged to be heavyhanded/disproportionate.