You poor people that live in Michigan

[Exterous]

Hopefully this doesn't pass and they erase the pensions instead. Also they should liquidate their art gallery assets.

The problem with the art gallery assets is that many were merely given to the DIA to display and the DIA does not actually own them (or owns them under the stipulation they cannot be sold) and, therefore, cannot actually sell them. In the event the DIA closes the art goes back to the private trust or person who donated them

Did you actually read the article? $330 million of the $350 million comes from selling off the city's public art collection to private investors.

In essence he's taking advantage of the situation to loot the property of the citizens of the city in order to pass it on to rich individuals at a cut rate price.

I would think that *that* is a more important issue than the state kicking in a paltry $20 million.

[/B]What's the difference between $452 to $866 million and $330 million? Sounds like a heck of a deal for a few rich folk.

I think you should educate yourself a bit more about the proposal. The proposal is for a non-profit organization to essentially take over the DIA and run it as it has been run before just without the threat of state liquidation. The DIA does not actually own all of the art displayed at the DIA and this new organization will merely take over the roll of displayer of the art.

The concern for Detroit is not whether people will lose access to the artwork but if they will lose some of the access to the revenue generated by the gallery

If you pull a Detroit and loot your city's finances to featherbed city workers' pensions or paychecks, you can pay it back from your own assets and enjoy a long stay in jail.

That might work if they still had those assets. Several Detroit leaders are in jail and are required to pay back what was looted but they had a nasty habit of spending it all so the amount able to be reclaimed is but a small percent of the damage done

 

[Exterous]

I know that we are talking about Detroit. But I think that Chicago has some analogous problems.

Corrupt politicians promising money they don't have to their supporters. At some point, the money runs out.

Chicago is likely watching the Detroit proceedings with great interest. Unfortunately Chicago may very well be much much worse as I believe none of their pensioners contribute to SS. There is at least some cushion for many Detroit pensioners by way of Social Security if there are harsh cuts but Chicagoans are entitled to nothing from the Feds if things go south

I'm not unemphatic to the Detroit Pensioners that are going to take a hit. But it was public knowledge that their pensions weren't funded.

Yes but the extent of the underfunding was not - not even close. Right when Orr took control it was estimated in the liability was $650 million. After the lies and falsified documents were uncovered (which landed several people in front of federal prosecutors) it is now somewhere between $3.5 and 8 billion. That is not a small difference in how underfunded the pensions are

 

[boomerang]

Believe me...I really would not rather more money go there either. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I have ever said that I want my taxes raised. But at some point we are going to be paying for these people to eat. Whether its through a bailout of the pensions or whether is welfare. My mindset is to keep people off welfare at all costs. Especially people that worked their whole lives and got shafted by a corrupt government.

Where the money actually goes is dependent upon who's calling the shots. I guess one would have to have faith in our political system to feel that the money would actually go to help out those at the bottom rung of the ladder. I have no faith.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Let me know if you do. I might recommend coming at Art Prize. Downtown is nuts but really interesting.

We are looking at early April for Founders Kentucky Breakfast Stout release.

 

[rudder]

Yeah,fuck legal contracts! Booyah! How dare those people depend on legally negotiated and signed contracts. Rule of law? Who needs it!

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-Article-IX-24

Apparently Detroit did not need the rule of law. Kwame Kilpatrick was elected mayor twice and is now is prison on 24 felony counts. There were council members convicted of bribery and the list goes on. Detroit was corrupt and stayed that way for a while. Everyone saw this coming except for the people running Detroit.

 

[rudeguy]

http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-Article-IX-24

Apparently Detroit did not need the rule of law. Kwame Kilpatrick was elected mayor twice and is now is prison on 24 felony counts. There were council members convicted of bribery and the list goes on. Detroit was corrupt and stayed that way for a while. Everyone saw this coming except for the people running Detroit.

Yea...it was bad. Everyone knew it was going on and they still reelected him. It didn't make sense.

But here is the thing-all that while, the state was dumping massive amounts of money into Detroit. Our previous governor was convinced that if we put enough money into Detroit, the state would boom again. I don't want to know the amount and I don't want to know where it all went. Its sick.

But the flip side of that is the rest of the state knew we had to save ourselves. Lansing wasn't going to do it. We knew the auto industry was dying a slow death and we saw more and more businesses going to Mexico. So we got creative. We got some of those big, evil corporations to invest in Grand Rapids. We got universities to invest in Grand Rapids. We decided to bring the future to us instead of desperately clinging to the past.

Now Grand Rapids is rocking. Downtown is crazy. What used to be the hooker intersection (Division and Wealthy) now has a shiny new office building and a nice little park. There are all kinds of medical research and other medical buildings going up. All of the sudden we have tourists. We never had tourists!

Detroit killed itself and tried to drag the rest of the state along with it.

 

[boomerang]

But the flip side of that is the rest of the state knew we had to save ourselves. Lansing wasn't going to do it. We knew the auto industry was dying a slow death and we saw more and more businesses going to Mexico. So we got creative. We got some of those big, evil corporations to invest in Grand Rapids. We got universities to invest in Grand Rapids. We decided to bring the future to us instead of desperately clinging to the past.

Now Grand Rapids is rocking. Downtown is crazy. What used to be the hooker intersection (Division and Wealthy) now has a shiny new office building and a nice little park. There are all kinds of medical research and other medical buildings going up. All of the sudden we have tourists. We never had tourists!

Detroit killed itself and tried to drag the rest of the state along with it.

There's a lot to learn from Grand Rapids which, along with Traverse City is about the only city in Michigan doing well. But you know that old you can lead a horse to water saying...

But too much damned snow...

 

[xeemzor]

What's to stop the next round of public finance mismanagement if we bail them out now? If you continue to elect politicians that screw you over then you deserve the consequences.

 

[unokitty]

Yes but the extent of the underfunding was not - not even close. Right when Orr took control it was estimated in the liability was $650 million. After the lies and falsified documents were uncovered (which landed several people in front of federal prosecutors) it is now somewhere between $3.5 and 8 billion. That is not a small difference in how underfunded the pensions are

That's a valid point.

Then again, when I left Michiana in the early 90's, I wouldn't have trusted Mayor Coleman Young with my lunch money much less my retirement.

While I'm not unsympathetic to the people whose pensions are taking a hit, neither am I surprised.

Uno

 

[boomerang]

What's to stop the next round of public finance mismanagement if we bail them out now? If you continue to elect politicians that screw you over then you deserve the consequences.

They've been electing Democrats for 50+ years. No reason to suspect any change in that regard. In other words, you bring up a very valid concern.

 

[OverVolt]

Economic conditions in Detroit generally trended sideways or downward over the period of Mayor Young's political tenure, with the unemployment rate trending from approximately 9% in 1971 to approximately 11% in 1993, when Young retired. However, most economic metrics (unemployment, median income rates, and city gross domestic product) initially dropped sharply during economic recessions, reaching their "low points" in the late 1980s and/or early 1990s, with the unemployment rate in particular peaking at approximately 20% in 1982.[28]

Young himself explained the impact of the riots in his autobiography:

The heaviest casualty, however, was the city. Detroit's losses went a hell of a lot deeper than the immediate toll of lives and buildings. The riot put Detroit on the fast track to economic desolation, mugging the city and making off with incalculable value in jobs, earnings taxes, corporate taxes, retail dollars, sales taxes, mortgages, interest, property taxes, development dollars, investment dollars, tourism dollars, and plain damn money. The money was carried out in the pockets of the businesses and the white people who fled as fast as they could. The white exodus from Detroit had been prodigiously steady prior to the riot, totally twenty-two thousand in 1966, but afterwards it was frantic. In 1967, with less than half the year remaining after the summer explosion—the outward population migration reached sixty-seven thousand. In 1968 the figure hit eighty-thousand, followed by forty-six thousand in 1969.

Interesting...

http://life.time.com/history/detroit-is-burning-photos-from-the-1967-riots/#1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Detroit_riot