You know you're a good fighter pilot when...

[wirelessenabled]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: waggy
yeah 2 with 300+ and 13 with 200+

really does not seem "fish in a barrel" to me.

ROFL!!!! Yeah, top American has 40, top Brit has 50 and the Germans had 13 with 200+ on the eastern front and you're claiming it wasn't fish in a barrel?? Double ROFL!!!! Sure, sure, all those guys on the Eastern Front were really 5 times better than the very best American and British pilots, it couldn't possibly have been the inferior planes or pilots they were facing.

The top American aces scored their kills late in the war in the western Pacific when flying superior Corsairs and P-38s when the Japs best pilots were already killed. The top Japanese aces got their kills in China against WW1 biplanes, nobody that faced the Americans was near the top. The Top German Aces were all eastern front guys shooting down 30 year old Russian planes, none of their top aces was from the western front where there were American and British fighters and pilots that were equal to the German planes and pilots.

Triple ROFL. All the "great" aces racked up kills against planes that had no hope of fighting back. Every single one of them.

Still much higher totals for the Germans:

Hans-Joachim Marseille 158 total, all against the West

Heinz Bar 221 total, 124 against the West.

Anton Hackl 192 total, 61 against the West.

and so on.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Against the French, Poland and early British, the Germans had the superior technology.

They also had the training because of Spain a few years earlier.

Then you had the bombers that would count as a plane being downed.

The allies did not have the fighter cover to take the bombers all the way across France and Belgium. The bombers were exposed for a couple of hundred miles in each direction without fighter escort and were sitting ducks..

 

[tboo]

Dick Bong is the has the most kills for the US. He was a Wisconsin resident & a park is named after him. There is a sign on Hwy 41 that says "Bong Rec Area Next Exit".

 

[grrl]

Originally posted by: PowerEngineer

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: Scouzer
He's likely a chronic liar. No one can prove your 'kills' most of the time, and kills are always exaggerated even by the most honest people.

Sorry, but kills require confirmation to be scored to a pilot. You are probably someone who suffers from chronic feelings of insignificance and insecurity. See how that works?

Both of you are actually correct. Checks of enemy records after the war show that the number of confirmed kills during air combat were often twice the number that were actually shot down. Chalk it up to the "fog of war".

There has been a lot of debate over the accuracy of the German numbers because they were more generous in crediting kills. (The Brits were the hardest IIRC.) It's interesting though that Hartmann claims 352 aerial victories, many of the aces who fought in the opening phases of Barbarossa racked up kills by destroying planes on the ground.

 

[Scouzer]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Against the French, Poland and early British, the Germans had the superior technology.

They also had the training because of Spain a few years earlier.

Then you had the bombers that would count as a plane being downed.

The allies did not have the fighter cover to take the bombers all the way across France and Belgium. The bombers were exposed for a couple of hundred miles in each direction without fighter escort and were sitting ducks..

Mostly true. The French fielded comparable planes to the Germans in 1940, there were just not enough of them. For example, Dewoitine D.500 was comparable to the 109F in most respects.

The British Spitfire Mk1 was arguably superior to the 109F, but again, not enough of them. The Hurricane was quite inferior, which the British had much more of.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: wirelessenabled

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: waggy
yeah 2 with 300+ and 13 with 200+

really does not seem "fish in a barrel" to me.

ROFL!!!! Yeah, top American has 40, top Brit has 50 and the Germans had 13 with 200+ on the eastern front and you're claiming it wasn't fish in a barrel?? Double ROFL!!!! Sure, sure, all those guys on the Eastern Front were really 5 times better than the very best American and British pilots, it couldn't possibly have been the inferior planes or pilots they were facing.

The top American aces scored their kills late in the war in the western Pacific when flying superior Corsairs and P-38s when the Japs best pilots were already killed. The top Japanese aces got their kills in China against WW1 biplanes, nobody that faced the Americans was near the top. The Top German Aces were all eastern front guys shooting down 30 year old Russian planes, none of their top aces was from the western front where there were American and British fighters and pilots that were equal to the German planes and pilots.

Triple ROFL. All the "great" aces racked up kills against planes that had no hope of fighting back. Every single one of them.

Still much higher totals for the Germans:

Hans-Joachim Marseille 158 total, all against the West

Heinz Bar 221 total, 124 against the West.

Anton Hackl 192 total, 61 against the West.

and so on.

Also consider how much time they spent active- American pilots flew a tour or two and went home. Not so much with the German guys.

 

[biggestmuff]

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb
*do a barrel roll*

a barrel roll?

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: biggestmuff

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb
*do a barrel roll*

a barrel roll?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_roll

 

[Mo0o]

damn that's a super nazi right there

 

[Kaido]

Originally posted by: dennilfloss
Also, Hartmann considered dogfighting pure waste and his strategy was to dive his BF-109 and appear suddenly right behind an unexpecting plane and blast it at point-blank range. It would not have made much difference if the opposing pilots had been using hreat planes anyway, since he was using steakth as his main weapon. That might also explain his longevity.

Sounds like Brad Pitt's "supermove" from Troy

 

[VoteQuimby]

Originally posted by: grrl

Originally posted by: PowerEngineer

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: Scouzer
He's likely a chronic liar. No one can prove your 'kills' most of the time, and kills are always exaggerated even by the most honest people.

Sorry, but kills require confirmation to be scored to a pilot. You are probably someone who suffers from chronic feelings of insignificance and insecurity. See how that works?

Both of you are actually correct. Checks of enemy records after the war show that the number of confirmed kills during air combat were often twice the number that were actually shot down. Chalk it up to the "fog of war".

There has been a lot of debate over the accuracy of the German numbers because they were more generous in crediting kills. (The Brits were the hardest IIRC.) It's interesting though that Hartmann claims 352 aerial victories, many of the aces who fought in the opening phases of Barbarossa racked up kills by destroying planes on the ground.

Yeah, but Hartmann wasn't fighting on the Eastern front until late 42 long after Barbarossa started. He didn't get is first kill until May '43. I'd say that his high total of aerial victories is directly related to his method of attack. He preferred not to get into dog fights and would only attack with an advantage. He loved the boom and zoom technique. I highly recommend the book, Blond Knight of Germany, which covers his entire Luftwaffe career and his time spent in Russian prison camps.

I'd also argue that Hartmann actually faced Soviet pilots with more experience than Luftwaffe pilots in 41-42. By 43 the Soviets were turning the tide of war and churning out higher quality pilots. Hartmann scored a vast majority of his kills in 44 when Germany was on the defense 99% of the time.

Hans-Joachim Marseille was a pretty awesome pilot too. He was the king of deflection shooting and could have surpassed Hartmann if his new BF 109G didn't catch fire after take off.

 

[freegeeks]

what the hell are you guys debating?

"His spectacular rate of kills raised a few eyebrows even in the Luftwaffe High Command; his claims were double- and triple-checked, and his performance closely monitored by an observer flying in his formation. "

 

[biggestmuff]

Originally posted by: JLee

Originally posted by: biggestmuff

Originally posted by: PlasmaBomb
*do a barrel roll*

a barrel roll?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrel_roll

You fail.

 

[Fenixgoon]

i was watching a history channel and they did a CGI recreation of WWII aerial battles... a US pilot snuck up on what he thought were 4 japanese fighters, which turned out to be 8, which really turned out to be 16, and he ended up downing 13 of them by himself. something ridiculous like that :Q

 

[91TTZ]

Originally posted by: Scouzer
He's likely a chronic liar. No one can prove your 'kills' most of the time, and kills are always exaggerated even by the most honest people.

He also claimed to have caught a 240 foot sea bass so you may have a point.