You know you're a good fighter pilot when...

[dennilfloss]

You down 260 other fighter pilots.:shocked:

Erich Alfred "Bubi" Hartmann (19 April 1922 ? 20 September 1993), also nicknamed "The Blond Knight of Germany" by friends and "The Black Devil" by his enemies, was a German fighter pilot and still is the highest scoring fighter ace in the history of aerial combat. He scored 352 aerial victories (of which 345 were won against the Soviet Air Force, and 260 of which were fighters) in 1,404 combat missions and engaging in aerial combat 825 times while serving with the Luftwaffe in World War II. During the course of his career, Hartmann was forced to crash land his damaged fighter 14 times. This was due to damage received from parts of enemy aircraft he had just shot down, or mechanical failure. Hartmann was never shot down or forced to land due to fire from enemy aircraft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Hartmann

That number still amazes me after all these years.

 

[Rudee]

I guess you had to be there.

 

[PlasmaBomb]

*do a barrel roll*

 

[waggy]

wow.

thats just fucking amazing.

 

[Vehemence]

:beer:

 

[Pocatello]

He was lucky to die of old age. Most German aces flew until they died in combat.

 

[Kaido]

iirc my Grandpa had 13 kills and was considered an Ace...260 is just insane :Q

 

[GagHalfrunt]

German pilots on the eastern front often racked up an unbelievable number of kills. The Russians had lots and lots and lots of 4th rate planes and kept tossing barely trained pilots into them. It was like shooting fish in a barrel, just about anyone in an ME109-G could shoot down the greatest pilot on earth if he was in an Il-2 or any of the Polikarpovs

 

[Baked]

God damn HK stealer.

 

[Pocatello]

Originally posted by: Kaido
iirc my Grandpa had 13 kills and was considered an Ace...260 is just insane :Q

Almost a triple-ace is pretty insanely good. In the old days, there were no guided missile, no radar, no ejection seat. You have to get in close and line up your shot.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
German pilots on the eastern front often racked up an unbelievable number of kills. The Russians had lots and lots and lots of 4th rate planes and kept tossing barely trained pilots into them. It was like shooting fish in a barrel, just about anyone in an ME109-G could shoot down the greatest pilot on earth if he was in an Il-2 or any of the Polikarpovs

so how many others had 250 kills? hell 200? 100?

 

[Scouzer]

He's likely a chronic liar. No one can prove your 'kills' most of the time, and kills are always exaggerated even by the most honest people.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
German pilots on the eastern front often racked up an unbelievable number of kills. The Russians had lots and lots and lots of 4th rate planes and kept tossing barely trained pilots into them. It was like shooting fish in a barrel, just about anyone in an ME109-G could shoot down the greatest pilot on earth if he was in an Il-2 or any of the Polikarpovs

so how many others had 250 kills? hell 200? 100?

Erich Hartmann **** (click to read his biography) 352
Gerhard Barkhorn 301
Gunther Rall 275
Otto Kittel+ 267
Walter Nowotny+ **** 258
Wilhlem Batz 237
Erich Rudorffer 224
Heinz Bar 221
Hermann Graf **** 212
Heinrich Ehrler+ 208
Theodor Weissenberger 208
Hans Philipp+ 206
Walter Schuck 206
Anton Hafner 204
Helmut Lipfert 203
Walter Krupinski 197
Anton Hackl 192
Joachim Brendel 189
Max Stotz+ 189
Joachim Kirschner+ 188
Kurt Brandle 180
Gunther Josten 178
Johannes Steinhoff 178
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert 174
Gunther Schack 174
Emil Lang+ 173
Heinz Schmidt+ 173
Horst Ademeit+ 166
Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke+ 162
Hans Joachim Marseille+ **** (click to read his biography) 158
Heinrich Sturm+ 158
Gerhard Thyben 157
Hans Beisswenger+ 152
Peter Duttmann 152
Gordon Gollob **** 150
Fritz Tegtmeier 146
Albin Wolf+ 144
Kurt Tanzer 143
Friedrich-Karl Muller+ 140
Karl Gratz 138
Heinrich Setz+ 138
Rudolf Trenkel 138
Walter Wolfrum 137
Horst-Gunther von Fassong+ 136
Otto Fonnekold+ 136
Karl-Heinz Weber+ 136
Joachim Muencheberg+ 135
Hans Waldmann+ 134
Alfred Grislawski 133
Franz Schall+ 133
Johannes Wiese 133
Adolf Borchers 132
Adolf Dickfeld 132
Erwin Clausen+ 132
Wilhelm Lemke+ 131
Gerhard Hoffmann+ 130
Franz Eisenach 129
Walther Dahl 129
Heinrich Sterr+ 129
Franz Dorr 128
Rudolf Rademacher 126
Josef Zwernemann+ 126
Dietrich Hrabak 125
Wolf Ettel+ 124
Herbert Ihlefeld 123
Wolfgang Tonne+ 122
Heinz Marquardt 121
Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer **** 121
Robert Weiss+ 121
Erich Leie+ 121
Friedrich Obleser 120
Franz-Josef Beerenbrock 117
Hans-Joachim Birkner+ 117
Jakob Norz+ 117
Walter Oesau+ 117
Heinz Wernicke+ 117
August Lambert+ 116
Wilhelm Crinius 114
Werner Schroer 114
Hans Dammers+ 113
Berthold Korts+ 113
Helmut Lent+ **** 113
Kurt Buhligen 112
Kurt Ubben+ 110
Franz Woidich 110
Reinhard Seiler 109
Emil Bitsch+ 108
Hans Hahn 108
Bernhard Vechtel 108
Viktor Bauer 106
Werner Lucas+ 106
Gunther Lutzow+ 105
Eberhard von Boremski 104
Heinz Sachsenberg 104
Adolf Galland **** 103
Hartmann Grasser 103
Siegfried Freytag 102
Friedrich Geisshardt+ 102
Egon Mayer+ 102
Max-Hellmuth Ostermann+ 102
Josef Wurmheller+ 102
Rudolf Miethig+ 101
Werner Molders+ **** 101
Josef Priller 101
Ulrich Wernitz 101


For comparison the top American ace had 40 kills. The Eastern Front was a turkey shoot for German pilots.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: Scouzer
He's likely a chronic liar. No one can prove your 'kills' most of the time, and kills are always exaggerated even by the most honest people.

Sorry, but kills require confirmation to be scored to a pilot. You are probably someone who suffers from chronic feelings of insignificance and insecurity. See how that works?

 

[waggy]

yeah 2 with 300+ and 13 with 200+

really does not seem "fish in a barrel" to me.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: waggy
yeah 2 with 300+ and 13 with 200+

really does not seem "fish in a barrel" to me.

In the earlier poster's defense the Russians did have mostly inferior planes and pretty bad pilots and it is well known that they were pretty easy picking for the good German pilots. This fact is pointed out in most books covering ace pilots. Notice that Hartmann only had 7 victories against pilots from other Allied Air Forces. It must also be noted that almost 100 of those planes were bombers. I am not trying to diminish his accomplishments but you do have to put them into perspective.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: waggy
yeah 2 with 300+ and 13 with 200+

really does not seem "fish in a barrel" to me.

ROFL!!!! Yeah, top American has 40, top Brit has 50 and the Germans had 13 with 200+ on the eastern front and you're claiming it wasn't fish in a barrel?? Double ROFL!!!! Sure, sure, all those guys on the Eastern Front were really 5 times better than the very best American and British pilots, it couldn't possibly have been the inferior planes or pilots they were facing.

The top American aces scored their kills late in the war in the western Pacific when flying superior Corsairs and P-38s when the Japs best pilots were already killed. The top Japanese aces got their kills in China against WW1 biplanes, nobody that faced the Americans was near the top. The Top German Aces were all eastern front guys shooting down 30 year old Russian planes, none of their top aces was from the western front where there were American and British fighters and pilots that were equal to the German planes and pilots.

Triple ROFL. All the "great" aces racked up kills against planes that had no hope of fighting back. Every single one of them.

 

[Pocatello]

It's never about a fair fight. You don't want to fight a fair fight. You get in his six without him knowing, and you blast away.

 

[jyates]

Hey.....I shot that guy down in Aces over Europe back in 1993......he wasn't all that!

 

[Nerva]

5 kills make you an ace... this guy is many times over. heh, germany produced a lot of fighter aces.

 

[Gothgar]

wow, that is wild

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

There are old pilots
There a bold pilots
But there are no old bold pilots

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

On the ground side there is Simo Hayha, a Finnish soldier with over 700 kills in WWII. At least 500 confirmed sniper kills (unofficial at 540 something) and a buncha machinegun kills.

 

[dennilfloss]

Here's an interesting take on the 'poor Soviet adversaries' explanation.

http://ww2chat.com/forums/war-...hartmann-ace-aces.html

Also, Hartmann considered dogfighting pure waste and his strategy was to dive his BF-109 and appear suddenly right behind an unexpecting plane and blast it at point-blank range. It would not have made much difference if the opposing pilots had been using hreat planes anyway, since he was using steakth as his main weapon. That might also explain his longevity.

 

[PowerEngineer]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: Scouzer
He's likely a chronic liar. No one can prove your 'kills' most of the time, and kills are always exaggerated even by the most honest people.

Sorry, but kills require confirmation to be scored to a pilot. You are probably someone who suffers from chronic feelings of insignificance and insecurity. See how that works?

Both of you are actually correct. Checks of enemy records after the war show that the number of confirmed kills during air combat were often twice the number that were actually shot down. Chalk it up to the "fog of war".