You know I just realized about EMIB...

[jpiniero]

The people who hate Intel's product segmentation are going to be super pissed.

You can pretty much assume the GPU will be gone from K models. Pentium and Celeron will use Atom-class cores. The locked desktop models will integrate the PCH but will be BGA only. DRAM will be integrated but unless you buy the HEDT equivalent models you will be stuck with whatever is on the package. Etc, etc...

 

[DrMrLordX]

They only have so much wiggle room to do stuff like that without AMD eating even more of their lunch.

 

[cbn]

The people who hate Intel's product segmentation are going to be super pissed.

You can pretty much assume the GPU will be gone from K models. Pentium and Celeron will use Atom-class cores. The locked desktop models will integrate the PCH but will be BGA only. DRAM will be integrated but unless you buy the HEDT equivalent models you will be stuck with whatever is on the package. Etc, etc...

I'm assuming there will also be two DIMM slots for adding additional RAM to these BGA desktops.

P.S. I have been noticing a trend of full size mATX consumer desktops getting smaller, so (despite the downside of not being able to swap processors) at least this will probably fit in nicely for that. Although with that mentioned, this versatile budget desktop (which includes a Kabylake version) is bucking the trend.

 

[cbn]

Regarding competition with AMD......If this new BGA desktop system allows Intel to streamline their inventory we may very see Intel offering more CPU than expected at X price point.

The net effect would be more Intel CPU per dollar, but the Intel user (of course) can't upgrade processors.

 

[ehume]

The people who hate Intel's product segmentation are going to be super pissed.

You can pretty much assume the GPU will be gone from K models. Pentium and Celeron will use Atom-class cores. The locked desktop models will integrate the PCH but will be BGA only. DRAM will be integrated but unless you buy the HEDT equivalent models you will be stuck with whatever is on the package. Etc, etc...

What on earth makes you think that? As DrMrLordX said, "They only have so much wiggle room to do stuff like that without AMD eating even more of their lunch." But why even bring it up? What made you think of it?

 

[mikk]

The people who hate Intel's product segmentation are going to be super pissed.

You can pretty much assume the GPU will be gone from K models. Pentium and Celeron will use Atom-class cores. The locked desktop models will integrate the PCH but will be BGA only. DRAM will be integrated but unless you buy the HEDT equivalent models you will be stuck with whatever is on the package. Etc, etc...

Another laughable post from jpiniero, as usual. Since years you are telling Intel will go to BGA only on desktop, keep writing your nonsense.

 

[crashtech]

Since so many of the existing (socketed) solutions are commoditized, there is limited foreseeable utility in attempting to eliminate them. Though Intel is pushing many BGA solutions in retail, mainly certain NUCs, there are still new SFF solutions like Mini-STX that Intel seems keen on promoting, featuring ugradability as one of the main selling points. So they apparently haven't gotten jpiniero's memo.

 

[cbn]

Another laughable post from jpiniero, as usual. Since years you are telling Intel will go to BGA only on desktop, keep writing your nonsense.

He does have a point though.

Intel Broadwell was BGA only (except for the "C" models) and so will Cannonlake (although I doubt there will be a "C" model for it)..

So what is to prevent Intel from taking a Cannonlake BGA mobile chip and allowing OEMs to make it a "desktop" simply via having a higher than typical configurable TDP option available?

 

[ehume]

He does have a point though.

Intel Broadwell was BGA only (except for the "C" models) and so will Cannonlake (although I doubt there will be a "C" model for it)..

So what is to prevent Intel from taking a Cannonlake BGA mobile chip and allowing OEMs to make it a "desktop" simply via having a higher than typical configurable TDP option available?

Now this makes some sense. Cannonlake as the laptop low voltage part, Coffeelake as the desktop high voltage part. OK, I'll buy that. But what does EMIB have to do with it? How did news about EMIB provoke the OP?

 

[jpiniero]

How did news about EMIB provoke the OP?

I was thinking about how far Intel could go with splitting things up with it when it kind of dawned on me.

Another laughable post from jpiniero, as usual. Since years you are telling Intel will go to BGA only on desktop, keep writing your nonsense.

You can think PC gaming's renaissance for that. Still, Intel has options to accommodate them while still doing the segmentation thing.

 

[cbn]

But what does EMIB have to do with it? How did news about EMIB provoke the OP?

I suspect it has to do with EMIB allowing Intel to remove the iGPU from the K CPUs. This will allow Intel to make more K parts per wafer or have K parts with higher core counts per wafer.

The downside is that these would have to go on either the HEDT platform or some platform like the HEDT. (We are already seeing this happen with Kabylake X which is just a regular unlocked Kabylake i7 with the iGPU disabled).

However, with that mentioned, this doesn't mean the locked EMIB CPUs would need to be BGA. They, of course, could work on a socket too.....but once the I/O features are set on the integrated PCH having the socket doesn't help other than for processor upgrades. (re: chipsets with different I/O features need to be separate from CPU in order to benefit from mix and match)

 

[DrMrLordX]

If Intel tries to push BGA solutions into the wrong segments, there will be backlash. BGA means you are getting stuck with specific board/CPU combos instead of being able to configure on a need basis. It isn't about upgradability; it's about getting what you want during the initial build.

If you want X Intel CPU and you can only get it married to a board that does not have the I/O features that you want, you're stuck. Want better board features? You need a better CPU right off the bat (assuming anyone is even offering you the features you want within the BGA ecosystem). Meanwhile, over in AMD land, you can get an X370 board and put a 1400 in it for however long you want, or you can try to run an 1800x in a B350 or X300 or whatever else floats your boat (though probably not an A320 board).

 

[Crumpet]

For the uneducated and uninformed... What's an EMIB and who's a BGA?

 

[cbn]

For the uneducated and uninformed... What's an EMIB

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/emib.html

and who's a BGA?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array

(So a processor soldered down onto the motherboard, not a replaceable processor in a LGA socket....the type of socket we see with LGA 1151 and LGA 2011-3 motherboards)

 

[Crumpet]

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/emib.html



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array

(So a processor soldered down onto the motherboard, not a replaceable processor in a LGA socket....the type of socket we see with LGA 1151 and LGA 2011-3 motherboards)

Thank you, and wow seriously soldered cpu's..

 

[jpiniero]

If Intel tries to push BGA solutions into the wrong segments, there will be backlash. BGA means you are getting stuck with specific board/CPU combos instead of being able to configure on a need basis. It isn't about upgradability; it's about getting what you want during the initial build.

With the PCH integrated in, you would have most of the I/O dictated by what CPU you buy. It wouldn't really make sense to do a socket. Presumably the K and HEDT/Server would keep an external chipset but that would be it.

It's sort of like EMIB is going to allow for some real nice improvements but it's not all sunshine and rainbows either.

 

[ehume]

Q- do BGA's have an IHS? BGA's have been made for laptops, and the last time I had a laptop open, it had no IHS. But I was cleaning an old laptop, so I don't know what modern laptops have.

 

[crashtech]

@ehume , all the photos of Skylake mobile CPUs that I have seen show no IHS. Mobile cooling solutions are generally much lighter and are mounted such that they can't impart much unexpected pressure on the die due to inertia from rough handling.

 

[DrMrLordX]

With the PCH integrated in, you would have most of the I/O dictated by what CPU you buy. It wouldn't really make sense to do a socket. Presumably the K and HEDT/Server would keep an external chipset but that would be it..

You're missing the point.

Right now, Intel sells a given range of CPUs for a particular socket/platform. OEMs supply another given range of boards that support said CPUs within the given platform, offering whatever features they may to differentiate themselves from their competitors. Different I/O layouts and so forth. Just because I/O is dictated by CPU doesn't mean board manufacturers won't find ways to stand out somehow. They will add extra controllers for more I/O or whatever it is they have to do to make the sale.

Unless you're suggesting that the future of motherboards is that you just get one motherboard for everyone, and to hell with anyone who doesn't like what's on there.

 

[cbn]

You're missing the point.

Right now, Intel sells a given range of CPUs for a particular socket/platform. OEMs supply another given range of boards that support said CPUs within the given platform, offering whatever features they may to differentiate themselves from their competitors. Different I/O layouts and so forth. Just because I/O is dictated by CPU doesn't mean board manufacturers won't find ways to stand out somehow. They will add extra controllers for more I/O or whatever it is they have to do to make the sale.

Unless you're suggesting that the future of motherboards is that you just get one motherboard for everyone, and to hell with anyone who doesn't like what's on there.

The BGA chips are actually sold by Intel without a motherboard attached to them. (ie, the processors are soldered down to a package....and then the package is attached to a motherboard with whatever additional chips and I/O the OEMs want)

See picture below of the 2014 Razor for an example of that:

 

[DrMrLordX]

The BGA chips are actually sold by Intel without a motherboard attached to them. (ie, the processors are soldered down to a package....and then the package is attached to a motherboard with whatever additional chips and I/O the OEMs want)

Yeah, but once they solder in the chip, it's basically a done deal.

If all you're doing is buying from an OEM then it's basically par for the course since the end-user will probably not do a part upgrade on the CPU unless it's faulty. If you're buying chip + board + RAM for a DiY system or a boutique system then you're now restricted to whatever CPU + board combos are available from your supplier/etailer/retailer.

Taking a quick look at Ryzen R7 CPUs + X370 boards on NewEgg, I have a total of 57 possible combinations alone. Do you think the Egg will carry sufficient numbers of those combinations if all the board + CPU packages come pre-soldered to their warehouses? Of course AMD isn't going down this road but the point still stands.

 

[cbn]

Yeah, but once they solder in the chip, it's basically a done deal.

If all you're doing is buying from an OEM then it's basically par for the course since the end-user will probably not do a part upgrade on the CPU unless it's faulty. If you're buying chip + board + RAM for a DiY system or a boutique system then you're now restricted to whatever CPU + board combos are available from your supplier/etailer/retailer.

Taking a quick look at Ryzen R7 CPUs + X370 boards on NewEgg, I have a total of 57 possible combinations alone. Do you think the Egg will carry sufficient numbers of those combinations if all the board + CPU packages come pre-soldered to their warehouses? Of course AMD isn't going down this road but the point still stands.

Yes, I agree for DIY this will not be good.

So Intel will probably do things to make the HEDT platform more attractive for the DIYer.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Yes, I agree for DIY this will not be good.

So Intel will probably do things to make the HEDT platform more attractive for the DIYer.

There's only so much they can do. The board prices alone are quite high, and the end user winds up with board infrastructure they may not want/need. There are people out there buying Pentiums and i3s right now that do not want/need those features and do not want the added costs. Those people are also not going to want BGA systems.

 

[Rifter]

If intel does this they are dumber than i thought. BGA has no place in a mainstream desktop product, period.

 

[crashtech]

I haven't been inside of any of those Atom-powered "quad-core" desktops that people have been getting fooled into buying, but I assumed those were BGA. Some SFF desktops have mobile BGA CPUs. There's no real awareness on the part of average consumers about this, nor do they seem to ever upgrade CPUs, so I think Intel can further segment the market if they want to, leaving sockets for upper midrange and better. Perhaps the reason why they haven't is because it puts a lot of pressure on mobo mfrs to offer more SKUs.